What should be next for downtown

[RWaz08]

) Something of a regional draw, including retail

) A large area employer setting up shop downtown

) Something to attract people to the riverfront (kayak run, etc.)

) Expanded and enhanced mass transit to take pressure off of the parking system

) Light rail streetcars, on Monroe to start but then expanded from downtown to Gaslight Village

I think all of these things would help re jump-start the residential portion downtown, which in turn would spur more development (movie theaters, more retail, markets, etc.).

A ballpark and amphitheater will help spur downtown, if placed strategically to create an entertainment "critical mass". Ionia is almost there, but just needs some more infill.

What do you think downtown needs RWaz? And welcome btw!

[GRDadof3]

Thanks GRDadof3. I think that downtown GR needs more affordable apartments for students and some infill such as a grocery store. These are almost neccessities right now. But if GR wants to become a place of destination or the new centerpiece of Michigan I think it does need a catalyst. A ballpark for the Whitecaps would not be the answer. You would want to develop something that will bring people in from throughout the midwest...especially Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Cincinnatti. I don't know what that would be but in other cities it includes sports stadiums, very large shopping areas, monuments, weather (not in our cards), etc. This is the line of thought RDV and others need to follow if they want GR to become a destination. If their goal is to just stimulate the city than they need to focus on infill, shopping, entertainment, and most importantly more jobs.

[jas49503]

Thanks GRDadof3. I think that downtown GR needs more affordable apartments for students and some infill such as a grocery store. These are almost neccessities right now. But if GR wants to become a place of destination or the new centerpiece of Michigan I think it does need a catalyst. A ballpark for the Whitecaps would not be the answer. You would want to develop something that will bring people in from throughout the midwest...especially Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Cincinnatti. I don't know what that would be but in other cities it includes sports stadiums, very large shopping areas, monuments, weather (not in our cards), etc. This is the line of thought RDV and others need to follow if they want GR to become a destination. If their goal is to just stimulate the city than they need to focus on infill, shopping, entertainment, and most importantly more jobs.

[GR8scott]

A differnt idea but I was thinking that it would be cool to put one or two giant windmills somewhere highly visable, not exactly downtown but imagin two 400 footers ontop the ridgeline by the zoo. That would be a good view entering the city and a good view from downtown,

what a better way for recognition of being the "greenest city", progressive and visually interesting

[x99]

Good question, and many great suggestions. Moving beyond "event magnet" advancement is important, but there is another issue that goes hand in hand with Grand Rapids' advancement: Who will have the nerve to stand up and say that being the subsided housing/mission capital of Michigan is not conducive to an economically and, er, "socially desirable" city? Aggressive panhandling has long been out of control, and being a political hot potato, no one wants to touch it. At some point, you run out of people willing to tolerate this in their daily lives, and Guiding Light and Meltrotter turn into a problem for your average suburbanite. This is not a happy issue, but is a genuine "what's next" issue that will need to be addressed. Gentrification is always an issue, but in a city where enormous missions and subsidized housing are core fixtures, it becomes particularly pressing.

[fotoman311]

Good question, and many great suggestions. Moving beyond "event magnet" advancement is important, but there is another issue that goes hand in hand with Grand Rapids' advancement: Who will have the nerve to stand up and say that being the subsided housing/mission capital of Michigan is not conducive to an economically and, er, "socially desirable" city? Aggressive panhandling has long been out of control, and being a political hot potato, no one wants to touch it. At some point, you run out of people willing to tolerate this in their daily lives, and Guiding Light and Meltrotter turn into a problem for your average suburbanite. This is not a happy issue, but is a genuine "what's next" issue that will need to be addressed. Gentrification is always an issue, but in a city where enormous missions and subsidized housing are core fixtures, it becomes particularly pressing.

[GRDadof3]

Good question, and many great suggestions. Moving beyond "event magnet" advancement is important, but there is another issue that goes hand in hand with Grand Rapids' advancement: Who will have the nerve to stand up and say that being the subsided housing/mission capital of Michigan is not conducive to an economically and, er, "socially desirable" city? Aggressive panhandling has long been out of control, and being a political hot potato, no one wants to touch it. At some point, you run out of people willing to tolerate this in their daily lives, and Guiding Light and Meltrotter turn into a problem for your average suburbanite. This is not a happy issue, but is a genuine "what's next" issue that will need to be addressed. Gentrification is always an issue, but in a city where enormous missions and subsidized housing are core fixtures, it becomes particularly pressing.

[Prankster]

I'm sure it's a different experience for different people, but I've never felt aggressively panhandled here. I've get asked for money occasionally, and there are certainly people that appear to need a shelter around the area. It's an issue that may need to be addressed in some ways, but it's not high on my list of things that downtown needs.

Perhaps others feel differently. I'm downtown a fair amount, and I ride through everyday, but maybe those who live and or work right downtown have a different experience than mine. Or perhaps some people are more sensitive to the presence of people who frequent these shelters than I am. They generally do not bother me.

Welcome to UP x99.

[Rizzo]

Good question, and many great suggestions. Moving beyond "event magnet" advancement is important, but there is another issue that goes hand in hand with Grand Rapids' advancement: Who will have the nerve to stand up and say that being the subsided housing/mission capital of Michigan is not conducive to an economically and, er, "socially desirable" city? Aggressive panhandling has long been out of control, and being a political hot potato, no one wants to touch it. At some point, you run out of people willing to tolerate this in their daily lives, and Guiding Light and Meltrotter turn into a problem for your average suburbanite. This is not a happy issue, but is a genuine "what's next" issue that will need to be addressed. Gentrification is always an issue, but in a city where enormous missions and subsidized housing are core fixtures, it becomes particularly pressing.

[DSchoon]

How did this turn into a conversation about panhandlers?

I used to care about this, but now I know that they're only aggressive here because it works. I know a guy that made $200 in a weekend as part of a project at Aquinas by dressing up like a bum and walking Ionia Avenue. It's a bad symptom of what's good about this community. If it bothers you that much, you can start abusing them like they would get in other cities. If you raise the liklihood that they'll get maced when they follow you for a block I'm sure it will happen a lot less.

[DSchoon]

The logic goes the other way around. A transit line esp. one that is based on any form of fixed guide way could also be the final tipping point to get prospecting developers to snap up and build on the undeveloped lots as was the case for many areas along Portland Organ's streetcar lines. As far as who the developers are, who cares if they are from GR's big families or otherwise? As long as the spaces get developed with things that would do DT good, I'm all for that. Though I would like to see GR snap up a fortune 500 company's corporate HQ. A streetcar line might do the trick on that.

[plee30]

It's been talked about on this forum before, and many think it is an issue. Just try to picture a steady stream of homeless people in Rivertown Crossings. Got that visual in your mind?

OK, now insert Rivertown Crossing shoppers into the downtown scene mingling with homeless people. It doesn't work.

[GRDadof3]

It works on Michigan Ave and other shopping areas of Chicago like Wicker Park, Lincoln Park, Belmont and Rush Streets. It's also worked in places I've traveled in the US and elsewhere.

I think downtown is in the midst of a long running identity crisis. What does it want to be? Does it want to be the destination spot where you go for dinner, drinks, entertainment, and conventions? Or, does it want to be the walkable, liveable, and workable urban city like an Ann Arbor or some neighborhood pockets in Chicago, like the Ukranian Village, Boystown/ Wrigleyville, or West Town? Because of it's smaller footprint, I don't think it can be both.

To level the playing field somewhat, Ann Arbor does have the luxury of UofM providing much of the services of Van Andel Arena and DeVos Place.

Just as the city has a Master Plan, I think it time for downtown to come up with its own. I no longer think the "if you build it, they will come," attitude works, as evidence of some drinking/dining establisments closed 2 or 3 nights a week, and a few others closed for lunch.

Time for a master plan because bringing more people downtown to a ball park, museum, and offices still doesn't solve the issue where to find the necessities if you've chosen to live in any number of the condos or apartments.

[plee30]

It works in Chicago because it's a completely different scene. The homeless are outnumbered 200 to 1 on the sidewalks on Michigan Ave. You don't even really notice them because they blend in. Plus, they're working selling newspapers. You also have a critical mass of the best retailers on the planet. People will trample over each other to shop at those stores, put up with horrendous traffic, and pay $40/day to park near it.

I agree though that downtown Grand Rapids is stuck in that rough patch. Not big enough to be a regional destination shopping point, and not small/intimate enough to have a neighborhood feel like Holland, Rockford or Saugatuck.

If you talk to anyone involved in the city, they are all banking on downtown gaining enough residents to make downtown sustainable.

[Rizzo]

Are we looking at this the wrong way? Maybe it's downtown's market reach. I'll reference that market study floating around that shows the primary market for downtown only stretching into the middle parts of the inner-ring suburbs. It's no surprise that downtown is having problems. Maybe there's no solid market for that kind of downtown.

[GR Jackson]

I think that the rails will bring stores. One of the major calculations is how much traffic going in front, add a street car that is popular then the stores will come.

[Prankster]

How did this turn into a conversation about panhandlers?

[NorthCoast]

Because it doesn't matter what you put to bring downtown. If people are harrassed by panhandlers, or have that perception, they will not leave their suburban comfort zone to venture into the big city. And with the disproportionate amount of soup kitchens and homeless shelters located downtown, that perception will not change.

[GRDadof3]

We've discussed this topic before and I think we came to somewhat of an agreement that suburbanites looking to avoid downtown because of the panhandlers are not being irrational. Especially seniors, women, or people with kids. Now, to be fair, I couldn't tell you the last time that a bum attacked someone or was verbally abusive. I do think it is important for children at some point to learn about the homeless, compassion, etc. But I think any parent would tell you that safety is going to trump everything. There is a fine line between learning experience and putting your kids in possible danger. I'd hate for anyone to paint this issue as suburban people just being close minded. When all is said and done, DT has to think of itself like a business must. If you want to attract the people with disposable incomes, you are going to have provide a safe, comfotable, and pleseant atmosphere. Being harassed for a dollar, hearing a drunk shout obscenities/gibberish, or witnessing public urination is not going to be something that make people think DT is place to be or a place worth spending their money. If they wanted to see crazy yahoos...they could just go to Wal-Mart

[plee30]

If they wanted to see crazy yahoos...they could just go to Wal-Mart

[blueradon]

While I think it is great that downtown is getting all these new projects as of late, it would be wise if everyone would really take a step back and review some of those back-to-basic retail and living accomidations that are currently not in downtown.

[tamias6]

Yeah, I see your point. But get rid of your 5 or so "problem" panhandlers and I think you could see easily see 100 to 1 numbers if you plopped a Rivertown Crossings downtown.

I'd love to see downtown gain the residents to make it sustainable, and I have little doubt it'll get there. But a grocery store and a couple national retailers sure wouldn't hurt to get the ball rolling.

[Rizzo]

Tamias, I don't know if that's case. If Rivertown is indicative of the retail that is inside then we are talking about a very focused attempt to attract people and their money. There's a focus group for everything. Sales are tied to everything we do. Are products (in this case stores) placed near others that drive sales?

[yankee_farmer]

We've got a Rivertown Crossings already in the form of Monroe Center. We just need city planners to fully utilize and market this resource.

[GRDadof3]

First, I don't completely agree with this statement. If one looks at the square footage of retail space in the Rivertown Mall alone, this comparison is tenuous, at best (much less the millions of square feet in the areas surrounding the mall). However, I agree that Monroe Center could be an engine for growth like Rivertown has been. However, retail alone, especially given the economic climate we currently are seeing, will not bring downtown to the point we all think it should be.

Personally, I think a few things need to happen.

1. Increased daytime traffic, which could be the result of increased business activity. A hard push by the city to land a significant office tenant to any downtown-area parcel would hopefully bring in the kind of companies that would provide demand for. . .

2. Increased retail opportunity. Rather than folks heading to the Woodland Mall area, Alpine, or Rivertown, they could head downtown, do their shopping, and stop at a restaurant for dinner and a bar for drinks.

3. A destination to bring increased foot traffic and demand for current and future entertainment/dining venues. I believe that if done correctly, a downtown ballpark could provide one more reason for familes and young professionals to head downtown, first to spend their money, but also, in the longer term, to locate there permanently.

4. I think this effort must extend beyond Grand Rapids organizations, also. The Grand Valley Metro Council and Kent County must be involved also. Land-Use patterns which encourage development in Rockford and Gaines township must be addressed for any urban revitalization efforts to succeed in the long term.