What should be next for downtown

[MuskeMI]

And I'm sick of hearing about this myth of a parking shortage. Say it like it is: There isn't enough free parking. If you want to pay you will always find a spot somewhere.

[GRDadof3]

I'm not really sure what post to respond to here. But from what I'm hearing it sounds like the mass transit and parking have formed some kind of religion.

Trains aren't going to make downtown any more convenient for people who aren't already in walking neighborhoods. That's complete fiction. There is no conceivable way that it could shorten the commute into downtown when compared to normal traffic conditions. It's just too easy to get from the suburbs.

What you actually need it for is people who are just outside of downtown...in Easttown or Creston or by John Ball Park, where there is real congestion and people would prefer to walk either way. But that isn't going to make downtown any more of a shopping destination than it already is. Downtown shopping is inferior to that of most neighborhoods and I can't see that changing in my lifetime. If there was a light rail system in Grand Rapids I would never take it downtown to shop, I would take it to Uptown and East Fulton.

And I'm sick of hearing about this myth of a parking shortage. Say it like it is: There isn't enough free parking. If you want to pay you will always find a spot somewhere.

[egrguy]

Too bad Kent county/GR can't request a sales tax increase to fund mass transit growth. Seattle has a $17.6B measure on next week's ballot to massively overhaul its mass transit system.

I think you have to have private/public funding to really push massive mass transit overhauls.

[Prankster]

Too bad Kent county/GR can't request a sales tax increase to fund mass transit growth. Seattle has a $17.6B measure on next week's ballot to massively overhaul its mass transit system.

I think you have to have private/public funding to really push massive mass transit overhauls.

[DSchoon]

I agree. We have been spoiled by all the private/public partnerships that have enjoyed success, the voting public would not readily embrace a tax increase of any kind.

[yankee_farmer]

Reviewing this thread, I see two common elements:

1. The destination - What does downtown need?

2. The means of transportation - How will people get there?

Across the GR forums on urban planet, I see many threads that somehow connect to this downtown question. BRT is no doubt part of the solution, and a streetcar might be another, and the ongoing parking discussion obviously raises questions that need to be answered. However, these tend to address question 2.

Now, more than ever (given the economic climate), a new project is needed to maintain the momentum gained in renewing downtown GR. I maintain that the key is a mixed-use project combining many of the amenities or attractions that we all feel (or at least I assume we do) are missing from the current downtown landscape. Such a project would include

1. Destination Retail (day/evening shoppers, weekend traffic for downtown), something to bring shoppers downtown for a unique experience they cannot find in Kentwood or Grandville. There are many possible options here, but I would think something like an REI or an LL Bean. . .

2. Entertainment/Dining - Ideally, something that would supplement the night scene downtown, I agree with some posters that some sort of chain may be necessary, but I think a PF Changs, and a Chipotle would provide a lunch destination for business folks and a weekend/night destination for shoppers and college students living downtown.

3. Office Space - I think there will continue to be a demand for high-quality, modern workspace downtown, if the amenities are right. Ideally, this would be a building providing high levels of occupant comfort (an intent of the LEED system that is often overlooked)

4. Residences - There has been some discussion on these forums that the condominiums being built downtown are not the most suitable for families. I think a development with a large variety of housing options, both in square footage and price, would be an excellent addition to downtown. This would not have to be a large portion of any development in terms of total units, but would be a convenient place for a variety of residents to consider as a living option.

5. Transit connectivity - Location near 2 or more Rapid Routes, and possible location near BRT or Streetcar would just be icing on the cake.

[GR2010]

I think the city should divert the Grand River just like San Antonio did to create the Riverwalk which helps prevent flooding. This could also create a great place for a centralized shopping district, offices and dining. It would also allow an outlet for great boat tours.

[Quercus]

yankee_farmer, you make some solid points. But I would argue that entertainment and dining options in downtown GR are already coming along nicely. To get to the next level of dining and entertainment, I think more people need to live downtown, an option that will be considered by many more people when a major grocery store and diverse housing (both in size and cost) appear.

Like many on UP, I would love to see a major retailer move into downtown and set off a chain of events of others following suit. Actually, last week I sent an email to REI telling them I think they could have great success in such an environment. Never hurts to give such companies a nudge.

[rollnggrnade]

Yep. That's why those Rapid millages keep passing. And that massive GRPS construction millage. I think the only significant increases the community has turned down lately have been ill-conceived ones like the zoo relocation and GRCC's we-can't-stop-expanding fund. (That doesn't count Wyoming, those people are crazy.) I even vaguely recall a lodging tax increase to support DeVos Place. I think people don't give the public part of those private/public partnerships enough credit. On all the big ones, there are just as many (usually more) tax dollars on the table as donations.

[GRDadof3]

yankee_farmer, you make some solid points. But I would argue that entertainment and dining options in downtown GR are already coming along nicely. To get to the next level of dining and entertainment, I think more people need to live downtown, an option that will be considered by many more people when a major grocery store and diverse housing (both in size and cost) appear.

Like many on UP, I would love to see a major retailer move into downtown and set off a chain of events of others following suit. Actually, last week I sent an email to REI telling them I think they could have great success in such an environment. Never hurts to give such companies a nudge.

[jas49503]

How many people live downtown now? It seems like there must be at least 20k or so that live downtown and within a mile or so radius. I would have to think that the population could easily support a grocery and other basic stores even if a sizable percentage of the population isn't of the demographic that would shop at more upscale stores such as REI. Building these Basic stores would go a long way towards making downtown more livable though, which would greatly increase the demand for downtown housing.

[GR Jackson]

What there should be is some kind of urban shopping fair with some type of incentive to come down and shop. Couple it with some type of event, maybe a good old fashioned pie eating contest and a parade, more people will get excited about going downtown to shop.

[AlexPKeaton]

How many people live in the RiverTown Crossings? GRDad has pointed this out before, and I agree, that population alone doesn't make for a shopping destination.

If simply going downtown is a hassle, then why does anybody go shopping on Black Friday, even in the suburbs? There must be something that makes it worthwhile. People will put up with the hassle if the attraction is worth it. The problem with downtown isn't a lack of parking or transit so much as a lack of a compelling reason to go there. The Arena and bars are compelling for their respective activities, but there is no reason for anyone to ever shop downtown right now.

[Rizzo]

How many people live downtown now? It seems like there must be at least 20k or so that live downtown and within a mile or so radius. I would have to think that the population could easily support a grocery and other basic stores even if a sizable percentage of the population isn't of the demographic that would shop at more upscale stores such as REI. Building these Basic stores would go a long way towards making downtown more livable though, which would greatly increase the demand for downtown housing.

[GRDadof3]

How many people live in the RiverTown Crossings? GRDad has pointed this out before, and I agree, that population alone doesn't make for a shopping destination.

If simply going downtown is a hassle, then why does anybody go shopping on Black Friday, even in the suburbs? There must be something that makes it worthwhile. People will put up with the hassle if the attraction is worth it. The problem with downtown isn't a lack of parking or transit so much as a lack of a compelling reason to go there. The Arena and bars are compelling for their respective activities, but there is no reason for anyone to ever shop downtown right now.

[Mark Miller]

According to the commercial market analysis report, Downtown has a population of just 1,656 people. Now, if you include other near side neighborhoods such as The Hill, South Downtown, West Side, North Monroe, etc. the living population is 7,818 people. The same report concluded there is a daytime working population of 40,000 people.

[Yankee Fan]

Exactly. Think of the absolute lunacy people will put up with to go shopping in Chicago, especially around Christmas. Rivertown Crossings is a regional mall, so it draws probably from a 50 mile radius (1 Million people at least). People go to places like that on Black Friday, one for the sales, two for the excitement of it.

[GRDadof3]

Most of my contacts at Whirlpool and their immediate families drive up to Rivertown for the "mall experience" and go to Chicago for the "window shopping" and "big city experience."

GR Dad, I agree with you and I have made this statement many times before: People go places for the experience, the intangibles, and, as you said, the excitement. I have never (okay, outside of IKEA) gone to Chicago to shop at a particular store. I go shopping there because of the experience while I am there.

Granted, Grand Rapids is not on the same level as Chicago, but people will come downtown if they believe that they are going to have unique experiences.

I love that we have Festival, but after that draws me downtown, what can I do after that (other than hit up a restaurant or the museums)? When I go to a festival in Chicago, afterwards we can go shopping or take in a show.

I do not view this as a catch 22 scenario, anymore. You do not need people before you can have more stores. You do not need stores before you can attract people. You need both. One cannot exist without the other.

[GaryP]

There is one scenario where you can put the cart before the horse: regional destination attractions. Look at Cabela's proposal (not that I think Cabela's is good for a downtown). They are building on an apple orchard miles from anything else, and with virtually no one living near it. It will be packed from day one. When Rivertown Crossings was planned, there was not a lot of residential development South of 44th or 52nd Streets. Now look at it. Development is pushing out to beyond M-6 in that area. Retail follows residential follows retail generally, but some retail just leaps ahead of the residential because they draw from a bigger area. They're not "counting rooftops" when they look at land.

As far as how many people there are living downtown, I think Rizzo is close with that 1600 or so. The DDA puts it more like 2300 I think. Some of that though is probably people with very little disposable income.

[jas49503]

Another question to ask then, with so few people actually living downtown, is - how may regional shopping destinations can one town support? It would be great if there were a mall or a group of major retailers downtown but it seems like there is a lot of competition. I've never been to rivertown crossings but it seems like it would draw a lot of potential customers away from downtown shopping. maybe you could get everyone north and east of town but if people just want to go shopping at the mall they would probably stop at rivertown crossings first unless there was a compelling reason to go downtown instead. of course you could make the argument that there already is with the GRAM, restaurants, more appealing architecture, city experience, etc.

[Rizzo]

There is one scenario where you can put the cart before the horse: regional destination attractions. Look at Cabela's proposal (not that I think Cabela's is good for a downtown). They are building on an apple orchard miles from anything else, and with virtually no one living near it. It will be packed from day one. When Rivertown Crossings was planned, there was not a lot of residential development South of 44th or 52nd Streets. Now look at it. Development is pushing out to beyond M-6 in that area. Retail follows residential follows retail generally, but some retail just leaps ahead of the residential because they draw from a bigger area. They're not "counting rooftops" when they look at land.

As far as how many people there are living downtown, I think Rizzo is close with that 1600 or so. The DDA puts it more like 2300 I think. Some of that though is probably people with very little disposable income.