New Fayetteville High School plans

[zman9810]

That will be an interesting lecture. It's clear how facilties that are inadequate or in disrepair could have negative affects on the students' education. This presentation will probably drive that point home very well.

I am concerned about how much the Fayetteville school district has depended on outside consultants and influences that seem to be unaware of the local realities that will affect this election. Concordia had great ideas but they did not tailor those ideas to what costs the voting district patrons will support. The most attractive plans are worthless if they do not come to fruition.

The school district keeps implying that the plans were created with full community input and support and that just isn't so. It hasn't been stated as to what the total population is within the school district boundaries is but it is without a doubt that the large majority of residents within those boundaries did not give input as to what the plans were. If Fayetteville itself has over 70,000 residents then it is obvious that the number who attended the planning sessions in May? did not represent the whole community. There will be many who did not give input that will vote in the millage election. Between the economic conditions that we are in now and the misinformation that has been spread about the millage increase many of those will vote against it.

Considering the importance of this vote and the size and importance of the new high school project it would be wise of the school district to have exit polling to find out why those voting against the increase did so. This would be extremely helpful in forming a new strategy for another attempt at building a new high school.

[zman9810]

With less than three weeks before the Sept. 15th election it is looking like it will be a very close vote- much closer than it did a month or so ago. The district is doing a better job of getting their message out than those against the millage increase are. The district is getting much more publicity than the other side and athough some of it is negative the positive points seem to be helping a lot. It was disappointing to read that Dick Johnson is being considered for a position at Prairie Grove schools after the way he unexplainedly left Fayetteville. That and other unexplained questions don't seem to be having a large negative impact.

It should make for an interesting election night in Fayetteville.

[Mith242]

With less than three weeks before the Sept. 15th election it is looking like it will be a very close vote- much closer than it did a month or so ago. The district is doing a better job of getting their message out than those against the millage increase are. The district is getting much more publicity than the other side and although some of it is negative the positive points seem to be helping a lot. It was disappointing to read that Dick Johnson is being considered for a position at Prairie Grove schools after the way he unexplainedly left Fayetteville. That and other unexplained questions don't seem to be having a large negative impact.

It should make for an interesting election night in Fayetteville.

Yeah this could get 'interesting'. Of course if it ends up really close you'll have all the drama of each side calling for recounts and so on. If it does pass I think it would be by a somewhat close margin. I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

[butttrumpet]

I will be surprised if this passes. $100 million is too much for a high school, considering Har Ber was built for 1/3 of that.

[aerotive]

How Buildings Affect Student Achievement to Be Focus of First Lecture in 2009-10 Series

This was just a little too well timed.

[Mith242]

Here's a good article explaining why Fayetteville's proposed high school is more expensive than other high schools built.

http://www.nwaonline.net/articles/2009/09/...09azhscosts.txt

Springdale's and Rogers' high schools often get quoted in being built much cheaper. But the state has new standards for one. Neither Springdale's nor Rogers' newest high schools fit those qualifications. So if either for some reason had to build another new high school both would come in more expensive. I know people will still say there's a big difference in costs. But I still think if you factor in the new state requirements along with the fact they aren't building on unused land like the other cities did. In fact they're reusing the current land and having to do it while school will be going on which is also obviously going to drive costs up. You don't want to cut corners on the students safety. I also don't want to see us build something fulfilling 'minimum requirements'. If we're going to build something let's build something nice that won't be outdated a few years from now. Anyway some other things mentioned in the article. Helping to break down the high school by having certain areas as smaller learning centers. Having areas that appeal to students that have particular interests such as science or business. That way it helps keep students from feeling 'lost and overwhelmed' in a big single high school building. Also they're hoping to have the state's first LEED high school. That does make it more expensive initially but you save more money in the long run with cheaper operating costs. They're also trying to put emphasis on technology. Not using the 'bare bones' method that Rogers and Springdale used. Those schools most likely will have to end up having to spend more money to update their schools in the near future. The article also mentions the last school Bentonville tried to get passed wasn't particularly cheap either. It was billed at $99 Mil, not much cheaper than the proposed Fayettteville high school.

[Mith242]

Well no matter what everyone's view is on the high school issue, early voting started today on the millage issue.

[zman9810]

Election day tomorrow- Tuesday Sept. 15- polls open at 7:30 AM and close at 7:30 PM. There have been over 1700 early voters- if that is any indication of the turnout tomorrow it should be a good one.

[Mith242]

While I'm a little disappointed I'm not surprised at all that the millage vote was shot down 59% to 41%. There was just too many problems that got people riled up. I suppose if there's some good news is I think some people want to support the high school but with a different plan. So I guess we'll start this process all over. But I worry about what happens in the next process. I wonder if they pick a different route to go, maybe two high schools or a different locations. If some of the people who favored this current issue will vote that down. I just hope this doesn't end up becoming a big mess where nothing gets approved with the high school slowly in decline.

[zman9810]

While I'm a little disappointed I'm not surprised at all that the millage vote was shot down 59% to 41%. There was just too many problems that got people riled up. I suppose if there's some good news is I think some people want to support the high school but with a different plan. So I guess we'll start this process all over. But I worry about what happens in the next process. I wonder if they pick a different route to go, maybe two high schools or a different locations. If some of the people who favored this current issue will vote that down. I just hope this doesn't end up becoming a big mess where nothing gets approved with the high school slowly in decline.

The primary focus of the opposition seemed to be the high cost and timing of the vote. It is possible to have a beautiful new building that can be used for the separate small learning communities without the very high expense. When the economy in back to a full growth mode there will be a much better chance of passing a millage increase. This was just an ill advised attempt that should be learned from.

Going back and undoing the decisions that have already be made about the number of schools, the addition of the ninth grade and location will set the whole process back many years. Many of the supporters understood the need to work together and compromise on these issues- no one will get every detail just the way they want it. There will likely never be a consensus on every one of those decisions so the district needs to show leadership and look at what can be agreed on by a majority- the cost and timing of the vote.

[marmot]

The primary focus of the opposition seemed to be the high cost and timing of the vote. It is possible to have a beautiful new building that can be used for the separate small learning communities without the very high expense. When the economy in back to a full growth mode there will be a much better chance of passing a millage increase. This was just an ill advised attempt that should be learned from.

Won't construction costs also be more expensive (i.e. less for our money) when the economy picks up?

[Mith242]

Won't construction costs also be more expensive (i.e. less for our money) when the economy picks up?

Yeah that's generally the way it works. I just hope people realize we won't be able to build a school as cheap as Springdale and Rogers did. State standards are different now. I realize costs were high with this project but I felt they were still understandable because our situation isn't the same as Springdale's or Rogers. Anyway I got the feeling that there were a number of people who do want a new high school but just had some problems with this particular set up. Hopefully we can move forward. I'm just hoping this doesn't turn into another mess as we have to re decide what we're going to change. Honestly if we're going to really try to cut costs then I think we're basically going to have to either move the high school somewhere else like the edge of town or keep the current building and build a second smaller high school. I just don't think you can cut costs down very much with not moving the high school while classes are going on or building a second high school.

[zman9810]

Won't construction costs also be more expensive (i.e. less for our money) when the economy picks up?

Yes, construction costs and the cost of most things will rise when the economy picks up. A better economy will also make it more likely that a millage increase will pass. It's too bad that the district didn't present a plan with costs that that would pass so that we could have taken advantage of the current low construction costs. At the right price many of the other concerns those voting against had might have been overcome.

From first reports it sounds like most school officials have taken the millage defeat to heart and will work to come up with a plan that will take into account cost more carefully. Simply reworking the physical plant ideas and timing the next attempt during a bettter economic period is much better than dragging up all the debates that have been settled as well as they can be. None of the arguments that were presented to get us this far have changed- why rehash all those details and open all the old wounds? Why waste more time when the students need the new facilties now? Why waste time and effort listening to those who will never be satisfied regardless of what plan is put forward? Costs will not go down from where they are now so let's take advantage of the short time we have before they rise much higher to come up with a more reasonable plan.

[Mith242]

Yes, construction costs and the cost of most things will rise when the economy picks up. A better economy will also make it more likely that a millage increase will pass. It's too bad that the district didn't present a plan with costs that that would pass so that we could have taken advantage of the current low construction costs. At the right price many of the other concerns those voting against had might have been overcome.

From first reports it sounds like most school officials have taken the millage defeat to heart and will work to come up with a plan that will take into account cost more carefully. Simply reworking the physical plant ideas and timing the next attempt during a better economic period is much better than dragging up all the debates that have been settled as well as they can be. None of the arguments that were presented to get us this far have changed- why rehash all those details and open all the old wounds? Why waste more time when the students need the new facilities now? Why waste time and effort listening to those who will never be satisfied regardless of what plan is put forward? Costs will not go down from where they are now so let's take advantage of the short time we have before they rise much higher to come up with a more reasonable plan.

It could be somewhat bad re-examining every issue. But I'm just not sure that they'll be able to cut costs a whole lot as long as we keep it as a single high school at the current location. I'm not saying there isn't some things we can cut to help get costs down. But I guess I'm concerned about what if they come back with another plan that cuts costs down a bit but is still pretty expensive compared to the other recently built high schools in the area. You run the risk that people could vote it down again. I think if a millage gets voted down twice we could put ourselves in a big mess. I suppose you just need enough people to get it passed. But it could be risky just trying to just get enough people to try to squeak a vote through. I do prefer the idea of keeping the high school where it is and having a single high school. I just don't know though if we can get costs down enough to get enough people to support it. Seems to me you either run the risk of people voting it down again or you the only way to cut costs down enough is to make it 'adequate' and having the high school outdated much sooner than it should. But I guess that's just the way I'm seeing it.

[zman9810]

The school district is sending a survey to the residents that voted in the millage election to find out what direction they need to take in another attempt at having a new high school. They seem to be aware that cost was the overriding factor in the defeat but aren't sure how to go about addressing the issue. There is a push from some of the public to bring up issues that have already been decided such as adding the ninth grade, one or two schools and the location. There are also some who want to again approach the Universty of Arkansas about a deal to purchase the existing location.

The survey will generate many more reasons than the district will be able to address and please everybody. If they decide to remove the ninth grade those who think that adding it is essential may decide not to support the next attempt- I can imagine a lot of educators seeing that decision as abandoning something important. The idea of having two high schools would cause many athletic supporters to drop their support and would not address the costs issue as the present campus would still need work in addition to the costs of a new school. The location issue was discussed at length and with the university not in a position to make an offer makes it a non-issue. The money that would have been used has been commited to taking care of long overdue renovations of the present buildings on campus and another offer would require another tution hike on top of what has been already been raised. It's not the university's mission to act as a funding source for the local school district anyway.

One thing the district could do to win over some voters is to make clear that the university's $50 million offer did not mean that the district would have ended up with that amount. It was reported at the time how much less the district would have realized and it was many millions less. Between the amount that would have been needed to lease back the campus while the new school was being built to the replacement of athletic facilities and the administrative building the offer was worth much less. I suspect that some of voters who used this issue as a reason to vote no were going to vote no regardless but by making the explanation clear it removes it as a legitimate reason.

[Mith242]

The school district is sending a survey to the residents that voted in the millage election to find out what direction they need to take in another attempt at having a new high school. They seem to be aware that cost was the overriding factor in the defeat but aren't sure how to go about addressing the issue. There is a push from some of the public to bring up issues that have already been decided such as adding the ninth grade, one or two schools and the location. There are also some who want to again approach the University of Arkansas about a deal to purchase the existing location.

The survey will generate many more reasons than the district will be able to address and please everybody. If they decide to remove the ninth grade those who think that adding it is essential may decide not to support the next attempt- I can imagine a lot of educators seeing that decision as abandoning something important. The idea of having two high schools would cause many athletic supporters to drop their support and would not address the costs issue as the present campus would still need work in addition to the costs of a new school. The location issue was discussed at length and with the university not in a position to make an offer makes it a non-issue. The money that would have been used has been committed to taking care of long overdue renovations of the present buildings on campus and another offer would require another tuition hike on top of what has been already been raised. It's not the university's mission to act as a funding source for the local school district anyway.

One thing the district could do to win over some voters is to make clear that the university's $50 million offer did not mean that the district would have ended up with that amount. It was reported at the time how much less the district would have realized and it was many millions less. Between the amount that would have been needed to lease back the campus while the new school was being built to the replacement of athletic facilities and the administrative building the offer was worth much less. I suspect that some of voters who used this issue as a reason to vote no were going to vote no regardless but by making the explanation clear it removes it as a legitimate reason.

I'm not so sure the U of A's offer still stands. I got the impression they've already decided to move in another direction and have started spending that money elsewhere. I suppose if the offer can up again and they were seriously interested they'd still find some way of finding the funds. But people probably shouldn't assume the U of A will automatically buy the land. Overall I suppose this still could end up a mess. But I've gotten the impression that the school district is trying to sincerely trying to find what went wrong and what's the best way to proceed. But of course any changes made runs the risk of making other groups upset and losing their support. But I guess something different is going to have to happen. They probably can't just put out the same plan when the economy is hopefully better and that it might squeak by.

[zman9810]

I'm not so sure the U of A's offer still stands. I got the impression they've already decided to move in another direction and have started spending that money elsewhere. I suppose if the offer can up again and they were seriously interested they'd still find some way of finding the funds. But people probably shouldn't assume the U of A will automatically buy the land. Overall I suppose this still could end up a mess. But I've gotten the impression that the school district is trying to sincerely trying to find what went wrong and what's the best way to proceed. But of course any changes made runs the risk of making other groups upset and losing their support. But I guess something different is going to have to happen. They probably can't just put out the same plan when the economy is hopefully better and that it might squeak by.

Right- the $50 million offer is long gone and the money is committed for the $250 million worth of renovations that the campus needs, but there are still some people who are wanting to pursue that idea and using the past offer as a reason to not support a millage increase.

Expense seems to be the main reason for the defeat and steps such keeping the 1991 addition ($10 million savings), redesigning the new physical plant in less costly way and timing the next election in a better economy are all options that can be looked at.

[zman9810]

I received and sent back my survey today-. It was a good idea to make it postage paid- that should help the response rate. The survey could have been worded a little better. It asked how you voted and then asked for you to rank a number of options as to how they impacted your vote. Some of the options were issues such as adding the ninith grade, one or two schools, state of the current facilty and trust in the school district. I voted for the millage increase because it was a better option than not doing anything and the plans were a product of community debate and compromise. A better question to ask would have been to inquire as to 'why do you think the millage failed?' I imagine a majority would have answered costs and that would give a clearer idea of what the district needs to look at for a new attempt at a millage increase.

[Mith242]

I received and sent back my survey today-. It was a good idea to make it postage paid- that should help the response rate. The survey could have been worded a little better. It asked how you voted and then asked for you to rank a number of options as to how they impacted your vote. Some of the options were issues such as adding the ninth grade, one or two schools, state of the current facility and trust in the school district. I voted for the millage increase because it was a better option than not doing anything and the plans were a product of community debate and compromise. A better question to ask would have been to inquire as to 'why do you think the millage failed?' I imagine a majority would have answered costs and that would give a clearer idea of what the district needs to look at for a new attempt at a millage increase.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Still I'm glad that they seem to be doing something like this to try to figure out what's the best way to proceed. I'm still curious where exactly they plan to start over.

[zman9810]

While doing research on the high school issue I found this site of a school district in Ohio with plans for a new high school. It will be a 300,000 sq ft building on the site of an exisiting campus although they have also had to buy some neighboring properties for it. The cost of $68 million seems much more in line with what a new school could cost here. I haven't read all the information concerning the project but what I have read is very encouraging- it is at least worth a look by the Fayeteville community.

aNewElyriaHigh.org

Oh my goodness.....the more I read about this Elyria, Ohio school district the more I realize how good we have it here in Fayetteville and NWA. Here's another link to a video showing just how bad a shape the high school was in at Elyria and how the community came together to do something about it- took years but seems they succeeded.

Celebration

Here's a couple of renderings of what the project looks like- very impresssive IMO.

[zman9810]

It is reported that the Fayetteville school administration is recommending to the board that they not try for a millage increase in the immediate future. They will instead try to get the $52 million in stimulus money in the form of bonds avaiable to them and repay the bonds with variety of methods- one being a reduction of $2.5 million per year in expenses in the district. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[thewizard16]

We don't have things as good as you might think. Our school system is good, but by Arkansas standards. Having recently traveled to dozens of high schools in the northern Dallas and Houston areas, I can immediately tell you our facilities are not competitive at all for the direction new high schools are headed in similarly sized cities/suburbs. Take Prosper high school for example, located in Prosper, Texas, a town of about 7,000 that is projected to grow rapidly. They built a new high school projected for about 2,000 students (590,000 sg. ft) at a cost of $113.5 million. The school is amazing- a collegiate level library, impressive technology, top notch athletic facilities including an indoor football facility, and state of the art classrooms. Read about it, as well as the expansions in McKinney and the Northwest ISD: http://asumag.com/dailynews/prosper-texas-...chool-20090831/ . Believe me, these people have prioritized funding education very highly and their staff, curriculum, and facilities show it. Until we place education in our growing city on the same level as these places, we are not, and will not be, competitive in the long run.

[thewizard16]

I'm not so sure the U of A's offer still stands. I got the impression they've already decided to move in another direction and have started spending that money elsewhere. I suppose if the offer can up again and they were seriously interested they'd still find some way of finding the funds. But people probably shouldn't assume the U of A will automatically buy the land. Overall I suppose this still could end up a mess. But I've gotten the impression that the school district is trying to sincerely trying to find what went wrong and what's the best way to proceed. But of course any changes made runs the risk of making other groups upset and losing their support. But I guess something different is going to have to happen. They probably can't just put out the same plan when the economy is hopefully better and that it might squeak by.

Outside of some drastic change, the University is not and will not be interested in the FHS property in the foreseeable future. The site is largely useless as anything other than land to the school and the cost of the land, plus the cost of the drastic modifications that would need to be made to the property to successfully connect it to campus and either make or redevelop the space for useful purposes makes it so extremely expensive that it simply doesn't make sense for the university to pay such a high price right now. Even in the long run it's debatable.

[zman9810]

We don't have things as good as you might think. Our school system is good, but by Arkansas standards. Having recently traveled to dozens of high schools in the northern Dallas and Houston areas, I can immediately tell you our facilities are not competitive at all for the direction new high schools are headed in similarly sized cities/suburbs. Take Prosper high school for example, located in Prosper, Texas, a town of about 7,000 that is projected to grow rapidly. They built a new high school projected for about 2,000 students (590,000 sg. ft) at a cost of $113.5 million. The school is amazing- a collegiate level library, impressive technology, top notch athletic facilities including an indoor football facility, and state of the art classrooms. Read about it, as well as the expansions in McKinney and the Northwest ISD: http://asumag.com/dailynews/prosper-texas-...chool-20090831/ . Believe me, these people have prioritized funding education very highly and their staff, curriculum, and facilities show it. Until we place education in our growing city on the same level as these places, we are not, and will not be, competitive in the long run.

Thanks for that link- that's a very interesting article. It illustrates where the Fayetteville high school plans went wrong- costs.

Here's part of a table from the article showing how a great new school can be built for much less than what was asked for in the election. In the case of Prosper they built all new athlectic facilites also and as you say a top of the line high school.

If Fayetteville gets the stimulus money they are trying for it should go far in improvement of the current facility- even begining a process of making it better than an all new facilty. Using the bond money to make the most needed improvements now and going for a lower millage increase in a better economy could be a possible plan.

The Celina example of 260,000 sq ft for $40 million is another good example of what could be done.

District High school Opened Cost to build* Square footage Price per square foot

Sunnyvale Sunnyvale 2009 $26 million 110,000 $236

Frisco Heritage 2009 $73 million 345,000 $212

Prosper Prosper 2009 $113.5 million 589,505 $193

Northwest Byron Nelson 2009 $96 million 504,000 $190

Frisco Liberty 2007 $60 million 340,000 $176

Frisco Wakeland 2006 $59 million 340,000 $174

Rockwall Rockwall- Heath 2005 $48.7 million 282,410 $172

Wylie Wylie East 2007 $45.9 million 268,000 $171

Celina Celina 2008 $40 million 260,000 $154

Lovejoy Lovejoy 2006 $33 million 225,000 $147

I think most people in Fayetteville support a great public school system- it how it is accomplished that is causing the debate. An area like the north Dallas suburbs has wealth, population and a corporate presence that is so far beyond anything in Arkansas that it is hard to compare the two. We have the Waltons and a few others but overall Arkansas is still a relatively lower income state with a small rural population. We are making great progress, especially here in NWA and Fayetteville does a great job of supporting education so the future is bright even with this setback.

[Mith242]

It is reported that the Fayetteville school administration is recommending to the board that they not try for a millage increase in the immediate future. They will instead try to get the $52 million in stimulus money in the form of bonds available to them and repay the bonds with variety of methods- one being a reduction of $2.5 million per year in expenses in the district. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

While trying to catch up on news now that I'm back in town I saw something about this. I'm also interested to see how this is going to play out. I'm hoping to see a little more about this. Although I probably missed most of the details while I was away.