Orlando Discussion Thread

[prahaboheme]

That whole article really only makes Orlando Weekly look adolescent. They hardly articulate their points. Buddy Dyer is the best thing going for this city right now. The article makes it sound like we shouldn't even dream up these things because they cost money. What doesn't?

[GreenHills]

Dale,

I wasn't very impressed with the weekly's review of Dyer's speech. In fact, I haven't been able to take the weekly very seriously since they intentionally published that article they completely made up about rednecks eating manatees. The next week, the weekly fessed up and gave some lame justification that while nothing in the article was true, the article was alright because Republicans who control the state government were destroying the environment and really didn't care if people were eating manatees. A news organization knowingly representing a false story as being true is just about as bad it gets for a news organization (and I'm almost certain that it wasn't an April fools day joke or anything like that).

That being said, I do think the Weekly can serve a valuable purpose in the community (even if I think the editor who allowed that article to be published should be fired). I'm not sure the weekly is anti-development as much as it is anti-establishment, with a considerable dose of cynicism added for good measure. As a literary device it is fairly effective, particularly when you consider the demographics of the weekly's young audience. However, when serious subjects are being discussed that have potentially huge ramifications, the mindless cynicism (they're against everything and everyone is corrupt) becomes very old, very quick. I don't remember the Weekly ever publishing an article about their vision for downtown Orlando (if they did, I probably missed it because I spend most of the year going to school in Nashville).

As for the criticisms of the incentive packages, I don't know how well they hold up. For example, the article says the package was worth 22 million, yet the developer only got 3.5 million up front. If the rest is made up of loans and tax breaks, I'm not sure this sounds bad at all. How much tax revenue was the property generating in the year prior to the development of the Plaza? I can't imagine it was very much. So the city loses some tax revenue for a couple years that it would have never received anyway (had the project not been built) in exchange for what looks to be a dynamic addition to the downtown landscape. This doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me. I'm also skeptical the Kuhn is going to make 28 to 40 million off this deal with little or no risk. If this is true, then the city could have driven a harder bargain.

As for the criticism of the publix development getting 3.7 million (with an unspecified amount coming in the form of tax breaks on revenue that again likely would have never materialized but for the property being developed), I think this is a great deal. All these new residents downtown need a grocery store much more than they need a new arena or PAC (which as you know, cost exponentially more), and if it costs 3.7 million then so be it. What a huge disappointment that Phil Diamond voted against this.

I largely agree with the sports criticism (although doesn't the writer know that LA lost both its football teams several years ago). I think the worst idea involves the renovation of the Citrus Bowl. UCF should build a stadium on campus and Orlando has almost zero chance of ever getting an NFL team when 2 (arguably 3) other teams view Orlando as their secondary market (Miami probably doesn't view Orlando as their secondary market, but they have fought with Jacksonville over this market).

Anyway, this post is already way too long, but even though I agree with some of the criticisms of Dyer, I still think he has done a much better (not even close, really) job than anyone who previously held the job in my lifetime.

[bobliocatt]

The article was slanted, but it was dead on, when addressing the super bowl and other professional sports issues. Without a NFL team, the big game will never be played in O-Town, no matter how many hotels the region has. There's also virtually no chance at the city getting anymore professional teams (the big 4), other than the Magic, with Tampa right down the road.

However, I must say, Dyer is a man with vision and he's aggressively coming up with ways to achieve his goals. That's a lot better than most Mayors in other Florida cities.

[Dale]

I'm ambivalent about all this. I'm a bit of a libertarian who loves downtown development. I've met Buddy Dyer, found him likeable but I don't much like his Richard Daley, bulldozers-in-the-night way of getting things done. And I don't much care for Cameron Kuhn although I do think that his World Premiere Plaza will be the linchpin in O-town's downtown resurgence.

[prahaboheme]

Does anyone read Industry Magazine? I accidently stumbled across one today and its great exposure for the city of Orlando. Mind you, I am 1200 miles away, so it appears to be spreading around.

[Brickell]

well said greenhills

[GreenHills]

One thing that troubled me about the Weekly article was the quoted figure that Kuhn stood make between 28 and 40 million the Plaza development. After doing a few searches on the net, as best I can tell the figure comes from another article published in the weekly (I couldn't find the figure listed anywhere else).

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/slug/archive.asp?g=4451

"Kuhn is getting $22 million. As he pointed out, $14 million of that are loans he'll have to repay the city.

But then there's the rest, including a $3.5 million cash payment that so troubled commissioner Phil Diamond that he cast the lone dissenting vote against the deal. (The Community Redevelopment Agency, which technically is giving out most of the incentives, is broke; it will have to borrow the $3.5 million from a city banking fund.)

Kuhn stands to make between $28 million and $40 million on this deal, according to the information that can be gleaned from the city's due diligence report. Kuhn estimates it will cost $97 million to build the project, yet the total cost of the project is estimated at $140 million, which apparently leaves him a tidy $43 million profit. It's impossible to calculate his exact profit margin because he's refused to make his side of the deal public, telling the city that's proprietary information."

I'm no finance guy, but it doesn't make any sense to me how total production costs minus building costs somehow equals profits. They're both costs, so shouldn't the difference between the two sums equal non-building costs? If I'm not understanding this correctly, someone please explain this to me. Even if the author is right, it is not clear how he arrives at 28-40 million dollar figure. Why not 43 million?

When looking this up, I also found out that the Weekly's landlord used to be Kuhn. In 2001, the Weekly named Kuhn the "Best Advocate for Downtown with Character." http://www.orlandoweekly.com/bestof/bestof...color/index.asp

"New buildings go up and old buildings come down in a fast-moving city center. And while Orlando's isn't moving as fast as some would like, it still runs at a pace that leaves things behind. That's where developer Cameron Kuhn comes in. Kuhn is a fixer-upper of the first magnitude, having spent some $16 million since 1994 on mostly neglected buildings to invest them with renewed life, thus preserving what little remains of downtown's architectural character.

Kuhn started with the rundown Central Arcade at 50 E. Central Blvd., where his refurbishment lured retailers and restaurants. He converted the former Angebilt Hotel at 37 N. Orange Ave. into prime office space. He made over the vacant Fidelity Title and Loan Building, with its restored stone facade at 60 N. Court St., and the ABC Liquor Warehouse, a sturdy red-brick presence (and home to Orlando Weekly) at 111 W. Jefferson St. His current big-ticket project is the renovation of the landmark but tawdry U.S. Post Office and Courthouse at Robinson Street and Magnolia Avenue, which he's transforming into stores and offices.

With interiors that are hip and modern, Kuhn and his architects aren't interested in exact restoration. But while others strive to create a downtown with suburban franchises and theme-park vacuousness, Kuhn's vision proves there's a valued place for the past in the present."

By 2004, the Weekly moved out of Kuhn's building and it's of him seems to have become much more negative. "In a few months, Orlando Weekly will vacate the West Jefferson Street office we've called home for the last four years. It's a nice place, formerly the ABC Liquor warehouse, but the rent's outrageous. When we moved down here the office market was booming and the price didn't seem bad, considering the building's charm. Today vacancies are up and rents are down, and we can do better.

Why do I mention that? Because it goes to the point the city council glossed over June 21 when it approved $22 million in incentives for Cameron Kuhn

[sunshine]

I think Orlando should asked Disney for everything, include a new arena, a PAC or maybe an Disney NFL team. Or at least, be smart to use these theme parks relations that other cities dont.

[F-L-A]

A Disney NFL team? Do you want us to be made fun of more than we already are?

And I don't know what kind of relations you think Orlando has with Disney, but there are none. Disney gets into Orlando's business and tries to use their weight to tell them how to run the area (rail project anyone?). That's the extent of their relations. DisneyWorld's mere existance helps Orlando; the actual company couldn't care less about us. I'm surprised they haven't created a middle finger-shaped parade float with mouse ears and sent it down Orange Avenue.

[prahaboheme]

I've said it all along, Disney should invest more in the city, but I hope the city can pull these things off on their own because I'd love for Orlando to one day grow out of their dependancy on Disney and actually be able to tell them "no" when Disney oversteps their boundaries.

[Brickell]

why would Disney put money towards a venture that will directly affect their profits?

If anything they would insist that the NFL team, arena or PAC be located on property.

[prahaboheme]

I imagine one day (maybe 20 years down the road, or even more) when downtown becomes a big draw for tourists, Disney will do some investing in downtown. Perhaps in the way of theaters, shows, etc. This will be a long way off. Right now, it doesn't make sense for them to do that, especially considering for people to drive from Disney to downtown, they have to pass Universal on I-4.

[cwetteland]

Good to see another groundbreaking date set regarding the Ivanhoe. Action in the north, finally!

So now that population is reaching critcal mass for a lively city, what's happening with business? There was some grumblings less than a year ago that there were a lot office vacancies and that that would be exacerbated with PremiereTrade going up. The only new business moving in that I know of is Dynetech and maybe some hints that EA might move in from Maitland.

I think there needs to be a balance. With the urban landscape improving, will downtow attact more business away from the "Maitland Centers" in the burbs, or better still, new HQ relocations? What do you think? How booked are PTP office condos and are they just moving from one downtown building to another? It doesn't look like the Benchmark Building has any commitments.

Even if the downtown office workers don't live in the CBD, if there is life going on they might hang around for dinner and a movie. eh.

Hopeful the snowball is going to gain some mass and just keep on rolling.

[steve_o]

The only new business moving in that I know of is Dynetech and maybe some hints that EA might move in from Maitland.

Dynetech is currently located in the Citrus Tower. They will just be relocating to the new center.

[prahaboheme]

Here is my take on it, businesses relocating in to the Plaza are doing so because it is "new" and they are porbably moving from the older crappy buildings in downtown. If these buildings want to keep their tenants and remain competitive they will have to renovate, so I think generally it will have a good effect on downtown altogether.

[sunshine]

Isnt Hughey is looking to build another building?

and also, CNL suppose to start planning for the third buildings, cuz they already grow out the capacity of the second one...

[sunshine]

Anybody going to club Paris?

[hueblue]

Anybody going to club Paris?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Club Paris opening night admission strikes me as too expensive. I read in today's paper that they've lowered the price from about $250 to $200..... I'm waiting to hear the buzz about opening night and then I'll decide next year whether it's worth a trip.

Seems to me that the concept is very niche oriented - maybe the 20-something girls will flock there and then the guys will follow?

[JTG]

The Club Paris opening night admission strikes me as too expensive. I read in today's paper that they've lowered the price from about $250 to $200..... I'm waiting to hear the buzz about opening night and then I'll decide next year whether it's worth a trip.

Seems to me that the concept is very niche oriented - maybe the 20-something girls will flock there and then the guys will follow?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Opening night will be interesting indeed. Apparently, Paris is only contractually obligated to stay until 9 p.m. New Year's Eve, so who knows how long those 20-something girls will stay.

Do you think Club Paris will be a good tenant for Church St. Station?

[cwetteland]

Not going, then again, I'm not a 20 something female. I just want to welcome JTG and hueblue to the group. WELCOME!!

[bande_originale]

I'm a newcomer to the board. I didn't really need any additional distractions at work, but, well... I can justify it as educational at least.

The crappy office buildings downtown haven't had to be renovated because, for the most part, they're holding their tenants. Short of a fifty-something list of law firms, banks, investment companies, and real estate offices, Orlando's commercial/office economy is largely small-scale and back office. EA would have provided a good shot in the arm-- not just in job numbers, but in what kinds of jobs would have been here. It is safe to assume they might have taken up an older building where renovation wasn't cost-prohibitive. Generalization, yes, but the open-loft layout is popular as ever in the 'creative class' fields. Pixar (I think?) just built new buildings styled after old warhouses to hold their new loft offices in the East Bay. The more creative-type jobs downtown attracts, the more the older buildings appreciate in value (and rent). Eventually, the back-office jobs get pushed out of the Class C office space, which is brought up in standing.

If there's a glut of Class A (or the like), though, it's possible that market-clearing rents drop to those of the older building stock. Then renovation becomes necessary-- why take space in an 80-year old building, where the elevators are slow and the floors slope, when you can get something in CNL II for the same price?

As for retail: niche markets, niche markets, niche markets. The right balance of older establishments (e.g. LaBelle Furs) and newer businesses catering to the young urban hip (e.g. the Mini dealership) could make downtown a unique destination-- the quirky stuff with the right balance of upscale and edgy that the malls and suburbs just can't offer. Right now, though, it simply does not have the population (even during the day) to support big chain retail. The Orange Avenue corridor could become a formidable market someday, but it is unlikely that it will ever have the population or employment density to be a smaller-scale Michigan Avenue or Union Square-- especially as the malls keep upscaling.

Pulse was mentioned earlier in the thread-- I go from time to time; it's yet another smirk-inducing example of Orlando acting grown up and sophisticated (aren't all the Rampy developments enough?). Provincial gay club with Miami attitude. I am interested in it much more as a potential catalyst for urban development, especially in that part of town. The Gore to Kaley area of Orange is marginal, and lacking any clear poise for development, but the area farther north, immediately around the hospital, is worth watching. Were that to become an even stronger office/medical concentration, the area immediately to the south would make sense as a higher-intensity residential area: I would assume that Delaney Park (immediately east of ORMC) is harder for new development to penetrate and the opportunities for transit are weaker. Imagine the long-term effects of that (20-30 years) coupled with an equal push north toward Florida Hospital (which may be happening with the Echelon properties and the new GDC development at Orange and Park Lake). Orlando could have an employment/activity corridor comparable to downtown/midtown Atlanta. True retail seems inevitable then: if you build it, they will come.

[bic]

From the Orlando Sentinel:

"Condominium boom sparks fears of an office-space glut

Posted December 20, 2004

The surge in condo office development in downtown Orlando could bode ill for the leasing market, some experts believe. Condo office space is sold and frequently occupied by a user. But investors also buy condo office space and lease it.

No one is sure how much of the condo space will end up in the leasing pool, but worst case scenarios can be scary, said Dave Chapin, vice president of Grubb & Ellis/Commercial Florida in Orlando.

"We have scenarios where the downtown vacancy rate could hit 25 percent in two years," he said.

Besides the condo office space at Premiere Trade Plaza -- the redevelopment of the Jaymont block -- condos are planned in the block at Orange Avenue and Washington and Jefferson streets. And the Palm Beach Land Trust, which has the Pizzuti block at Orange and Livingston Street under purchase option, also might develop condo offices

There's no shortage of office space downtown. New projects include CNL Center II, under construction by City Hall, and Lincoln Property Co. plans a tower at Magnolia Avenue and Washington Street.

Retail's return

Developer Cameron Kuhn has bought the former J.C. Penney building at Orange Avenue and Jefferson Street for $11.75 million as part of the assemblage for his next project. The store left in 1985. The departure was a blow to the city, which had been struggling for years to revitalize downtown after it was decimated by the growth of suburban malls.

Talk to downtown experts and they'll tell you strong retail is still a huge need for the city center, especially as the influx of residents builds. The $1 million grocery store incentive from the city for a project on East Central Boulevard shows how anxious Orlando is to beef up downtown retail. That project features a condo tower with the grocery, other retail and office space."

[hueblue]

Thank you, Cwetteland.

Interesting comments, Bande Originale. Especially regarding the creative professions and their affinity for the more boheminan digs. I'd never considered that.

Also, what is EA?

[cwetteland]

Thank you, Cwetteland.

Interesting comments, Bande Originale. Especially regarding the creative professions and their affinity for the more boheminan digs. I'd never considered that.

Also, what is EA?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

EA = Entertainment Arts. They are a video game maker (Madden NFL etc.) They do a lot of work out of Maitland and had talked about relocating to downtown. That's been delayed but I don't know if it's a dead deal. That last I heard was that the city was putting together a $41.3 million incentives package that could include $21.9 million from the state; $14.4 million from the city; $1.9 million from Orange County and $3.1 million from the University of Central Florida.

[cwetteland]

At the end of the the "Master List" these three projects are referenced.

"A condo tower to replaced the "glass" H&R block buidling across from Heritage Square.

A tower on a car park close to Courthouse (20 stories building)

Another new project from developer of North Orange"

Do these now have names? Are they ones that we've all be talking about now?