Charlotte Sports Complex (Bojangles Coliseum area)

[monsoon]

Its just you. Do you not see all the shops lining Trade Street and Tryon Street? From the looks of it, even 5th St had some shops (I'm sure others did to). If we still had that, Uptown would be 1000x better. You cannot duplicate that style of building anymore, or its impacts on the urban environment.

Indeed. I vaguely remember it as we moved from Charlotte to Myrtle Beach just before I entered elementary school. My Mon and Dad used to live in an apartment in downtown in the early 60s and later in a duplex off Central Ave near downtown. Some of this are from my memories of old black and white photos they took during this time. My mom always shopped in downtown for everything including groceries. I remember her taking my sister and me to retail stores in downtown to get clothes and shoes, my dad took me to a downtown barbershop for haircuts, and I remember eating at S&W Cafeteria on Trade St. It was what one today desires in a city.

My Mom & Dad have lived in Myrtle Beach ever since and had not been in downtown in decades. Last year I took them for a ride on the Light Rail which they marveled at it. They were fascinated to see places from they recognized from the days when they were dating and when they first got married. However when we got off the train at the CTC station and walked around some on Saturday afternoon, my Mom's first question was "Where are all the people?" She said that on Saturdays downtown was an extremely busy place with people going there to do their Saturday "stuff". I pointed out that most of the streets are lined now with parking decks, glass walls, closed up bank towers and entertainment places for sports and high end restaurants/bars. They said it was a shame as they didn't really see a need to come back. (they are in their 70s now) They did like the train ride however.

So my commentary on the placement on professional sports venues is based on this perspective which I guess that most of you, due to your age and/or history, don't have. My recommendation is to place these things outside of areas where you want to have a nice urban environment such as the once existed in Charlotte.

[Durhamite]

^^Times have changed, America has changed. Even cities (e.g. DC) downtowns are for tourist. The people who live there generally don't shop or do business downtown (I lived off 16th street near capitol hill for a year or so). Grocery and liquor were very accessible but I didn't venture downtown to shop for clothes, etc. Take the train or just drive to one of the gazillion malls surrounding the city; less headache, etc.

There was a time when all shopping and business transactions were exclusively conducted downtown. That day is gone, as is the Edsel and Model T.

When Charlotte add's parks and other social meeting spaces, regardless of Sports venues; it will add to the list of "things to do" uptown to complement many aspects of what is termed "urban living". Urban living doesn't pigeon hole itself to be rehabbed old buildings (albeit nice), there are many other ways to achieve and accommodate those who desire to live in or near the center city.

I think Charlotte has made errors, but ultimately moving in the right direction.

[monsoon]

^^Times have changed, America has changed. ....

Your dismissive response is pretty much stating the obvious as nobody here, including myself thinks it is 1960. However the principles for good city building have not changed. They have not changed for 100s of years. I completely disagree that cities should only be the domain for tourists now, however if that is your definition of success, then Charlotte even fails at that. My Mom & Dad who did remark on the absence of people on what should be a day for tourists, were amazed by the changes, but were not impressed by them either. They have no interest in going back.

If you think that building a city that had the urban character of the cities of early 1960s Charlotte is as obsolete as the Model T, then you are really on the wrong forum.

[uptownliving]

So my commentary on the placement on professional sports venues is based on this perspective which I guess that most of you, due to your age and/or history, don't have. My recommendation is to place these things outside of areas where you want to have a nice urban environment such as the once existed in Charlotte.

Personally I think the Overstreet Mall has had much more effect on the lack of street activity than the placement of the Arena or Stadium in downtown. Obviously you don't share that view. We could remove the Arena and Stadium today...and its not like street activity would magically return. In fact there would be even less people walking the streets.

[rockhilljames]

I agree with the assessment about Overstreet Mall. If that retail were at street level Charlotte would seem twice as big.

[Durhamite]

Your dismissive response is pretty much stating the obvious as nobody here, including myself thinks it is 1960. However the principles for good city building have not changed. They have not changed for 100s of years. I completely disagree that cities should only be the domain for tourists now, however if that is your definition of success, then Charlotte even fails at that. My Mom & Dad who did remark on the absence of people on what should be a day for tourists, were amazed by the changes, but were not impressed by them either. They have no interest in going back.

If you think that building a city that had the urban character of the cities of early 1960s Charlotte is as obsolete as the Model T, then you are really on the wrong forum.

You've completely misinterpreted my point. Rehashing "old times" and lamenting over missed opportunities is the invariable "what-if" of any city or person's present being. I never stated that a city should be solely a domain for tourist, but realistically, many downtowns (today) have integrated that component into their model of achieving a thriving urban center. Charlotte cannot replace (or any other city) history; as one cannot change decisions made in their own life. However, one can continually make strides to rectify or reverse direction. In other the words, the old buildings are GONE, never to reappear. The old grocery store is history, etc., make peace and rebuild. It will forever be legendary the grandeur of what center city Charlotte would be today it not for "urban renewal; basically, what's left is pictures in a museum (or scrapbook) and former residents reflecting on "the way it was".

I have a good friend from Brooklyn that lives in Greensboro (my current residence) that claims if not for family, he'd never return home....it's all relative.

The idea of a center city providing elements that have shifted to other parts of town (burbs) primarily has to do with growth and people desiring space. While realizing that certain aspects of urban living should be maintained for those who desire to live and venture into the concrete jungle.

Let's face it, embracing change be it good or bad can be difficult. How well some of the developments prevail over time should be the concern and this forum has been very instrumental in providing a voice.

As for the Bobcats arena, I would've preferred a square design minimizing the street grid interruption, similar to Dallas' American Airline Center with as much potential street retail included as possible.

[Neo]

well i do wish we had more of those tight shoulder-to-shoulder storefronts mixed in, and yeah, i didn't realize there used to be so many. i actually can't recognize anything in that picture though i THINK i know which streets i'm looking at.

We lost a great deal of history downtown to build the towers that now exist, but I'm still not convinced that we're worse off with what we have now.

I know this isn't from the same view or even a 'real' view (I did this using Virtual Earth), but the following image will show what exists today from roughly the same angle:

[Windsurfer]

I agree with the assessment about Overstreet Mall. If that retail were at street level Charlotte would seem twice as big.

...and if we could only get the retailers to open on weekends and after 5:30 weekdays. I see all kinds of people strolling through the Overstreet Mall on weekends these days.

Please forgive the flashback..... shopping at Iveys and/or Belks with mom, then across the street to Lebos for shoes (SE corner of Trade and Tryon), and perhaps lunch at Kofinas' on West Trade. That place was cool with all the sports pictures on the walls. Mostly boxing. With the sports arenas, has anyone seen any bars/resturants like that downtown that have pictures of basketball and football action from our own stadiums?

[monsoon]

We lost a great deal of history downtown to build the towers that now exist, but I'm still not convinced that we're worse off with what we have now.

I know this isn't from the same view or even a 'real' view (I did this using Virtual Earth), but the following image will show what exists today from roughly the same angle:

What becomes immediately noticeable from that photo that I posted earlier are the long stretch of just blank walls on the huge monolithic buildings that have replaced the much smaller retail establishments that used to sit there. That 1960s photo has to be looked at closely due to the poor technology, but you will notice a huge difference on what you see at street level. That arena is a gigantic dead spot that sits there most days closed. It was a terrible conversion of several blocks from multiuse to a single use property that is also controlled by a single individual.

[Charlotte_native]

has anyone seen any bars/resturants like that downtown that have pictures of basketball and football action from our own stadiums?

Go eat at Simpson's on Graham -- in a little strip center between 8th and 9th. It is an old soul food place, amazing food, and the walls are covered with posters and signed pix of musicians, rap groups, politicians, rich preachers, athletes, and sports stars (all of them both local and those that travelled through). Its really cool to see who has been, and still frequents, the place.

Baked chicken...mmmmmmmm...just get over the weird bright yellow gravy.

..... shopping at Iveys and/or Belks with mom

My grandmother worked at that Belk's. She worked in one of the clothing departments when I was really young...early 70's. My most vivid memory was the ashtray on the checkout desks with the ever present burning cigarettes that everyone working there had!

[nonillogical]

What becomes immediately noticeable from that photo that I posted earlier are the long stretch of just blank walls on the huge monolithic buildings that have replaced the much smaller retail establishments that used to sit there. That 1960s photo has to be looked at closely due to the poor technology, but you will notice a huge difference on what you see at street level. That arena is a gigantic dead spot that sits there most days closed. It was a terrible conversion of several blocks from multiuse to a single use property that is also controlled by a single individual.

i totally agree, but more than anything we're just lamenting uptown's overall poor treatment of the street-level now. if the renewal Charlotte went through hadn't been so short-sighted as to ignore retail and urban livability, then it wouldn't be so tragic that some nice old buildings were demolished to make way for them. Not every city really needs to cling to its history...its nice to keeps as much as possible, but a well-balanced livable downtown of brand-new buildings would be just as good as one composed of historic buildings in my opinion. (Mind you I moved from Savannah GA last year, perhaps the polar opposite of Charlotte in that department.)

if all this development had been more thoughtful in regards to livability, i don't think we'd be discussing possible deadzones created by sports venues. they wouldn't put much of a dent in the level of activity uptwon if they were surrounded by a variety of development, its all the vacant lots around them that are the problem.

[New Name]

When the time came to redevelop these "historic" properties, what kind of shape were they in? I haven't lived here long enough to answer that question, but judging from the antiquated opinions of my coworkers (who are all 20 years older than me and natives), "Downtown Charlotte is full of hookers and crime. Why would anyone want to go there?"

Were the places in the picture still in operation, and in good favor/use of the public?

All I know about redeveloped blocks of Charlotte since I have moved here is the abandoned convention center is now the Epicentre, the parking lots that used to exist now have LEED certified BoA and Wells construction on them, and the Duke building was imploded to become condos at the foot of a park.

The much maligned "urban renewal" phase of American cities was never a malicious plan to destroy history; it was (arguably) a miscalculation of priorities. If the public had turned it's back on the City, why not redevelop the land into a new use?

What was the shape of the blocks that now contain BoA Stadium, and TWC in 1995? And if "urban renewal" weren't such a dirty word, wouldn't you call this the same?

[monsoon]

When the time came to redevelop these "historic" properties, what kind of shape were they in? I haven't lived here long enough to answer that question, but judging from the antiquated opinions of my coworkers (who are all 20 years older than me and natives), "Downtown Charlotte is full of hookers and crime. Why would anyone want to go there?"....

Sure there were hookers and crime. This is what you find in cities. However downtown was more lively in 1978 than it is even now. Several of us have written about this before. On your question about the state of downtown property then, go to 4th Ward. It probably has the biggest blocks of buildings that existed before all these urban renewal projects pretty much sterilized downtown Charlotte.

The topic of this thread is to discuss good placement of these stadiums which is what I have tried to answer by example. I do admit there were a lot of bad decisions that preceded the arena. However in answering the question of this topic, I think the comparison of the Charlotte of 40 years ago to present day Charlotte is clear enough what this kind of development does to the urban character of a city.

[Spartan]

Personally I think the Overstreet Mall has had much more effect on the lack of street activity than the placement of the Arena or Stadium in downtown.

I agree with that 100%.

[New Name]

However downtown was more lively in 1978 than it is even now. Several of us have written about this before. On your question about the state of downtown property then, go to 4th Ward. It probably has the biggest blocks of buildings that existed before all these urban renewal projects pretty much sterilized downtown Charlotte.

I think the comparison of the Charlotte of 40 years ago to present day Charlotte is clear enough what this kind of development does to the urban character of a city.

I'm not interested in 40 years ago. I am interested in what it was like 10 years ago - or maybe 15. I'm not being argumentative, but I'm saying if the glory of 1978 was gone in 1988, or even 1998, why did it take until 2008 to redevelop?

It's like a washed-up old-timer Football player saying the game was so much better when he played, and no one else should even bother to play now.

[monsoon]

^You are asking a question that isn't what this topic attempts to answer. However to answer that question, the late 1980s and 1990s was a period where NCNB, First Union and Wachovia pretty much made all the decisions on downtown redevelopment. As a result the photo of 1968 was transformed mostly into the Charlotte you see today. They razed square miles of land to build their corporate towers, parking decks, and investment property. By 1995 this was well underway as NCNB, (todays BofA) had leveled 3 of the 4 corners of Trade & Tryon and the 3rd was in progress. First Union was up to similar moves down on S. Tryon.

People, including myself, were amazed by the construction but had no idea what it was doing to downtown. Trips to pricey restaurants and places to get drunk were being mistaken for true good urban development. It was instead a conversion into a Disneyland. Turn off the switch and everyone leaves. My measuring stick on this is what do you see in a place at 3pm on Saturday afternoon. Unfortunately in Charlotte's case there isn't much difference between 1995 and 2009.

I would say that downtown probably sank to its low point around 1990. In 1990 the US census said there were 6000 or so people living in downtown. In 2000 they said the population had grown by just 32 people. It's currently estimated to be in the neighborhood of 9000 - 9500 people. So 19 years and they have managed to increase the downtown population by only 3000 people. This in a county that easily added 1/2 million people during the same period. The numbers speak for themselves in terms of what developments like the arena have meant for downtown.

[New Name]

^Great, thanks for the answers. It leads me to suggest that the sports arenas aren't to blame for dead zones, the banks are. The sports arenas are actually a step up from their most previous state - a parking lot created by the banks.

To keep it on topic, I think it's unfair to blame sports teams for dead zones when they are striving to provide activity outside of the existing deadness. Some may argue that a complete row of shopping would have been a more preferable use of the land, but no one was willing to step up to the plate and take the reigns on such a project.

[monsoon]

^Well....... nobody was willing to build the arena either including the owners of Bobcats. That arena was paid for by the Charlotte taxpayers.

[uptownliving]

if all this development had been more thoughtful in regards to livability, i don't think we'd be discussing possible deadzones created by sports venues. they wouldn't put much of a dent in the level of activity uptwon if they were surrounded by a variety of development, its all the vacant lots around them that are the problem.

Precisely my thoughts. Most of the older buildings that we are lamenting on here were long gone by the time BofA Stadium and TWC Arena were built.

[Hardcore_Hokie]

My measuring stick on this is what do you see in a place at 3pm on Saturday afternoon. Unfortunately in Charlotte's case there isn't much difference between 1995 and 2009.

Okay so let's all meet downtown this Saturday (tomorrow) at 3PM to discuss. You in, Monsoon? Because I'll be there for sure.

Call me crazy, but I have a feeling it will be just *slightly* more active/rowdy/crazy than back in the good ol' days of 1969. I'll go out on a huge limb here and predict that 150,000+ visitors will be visiting the Center City tomorrow.

Just a gut feeling I have, don't know why...

[swh1972]

^ It is supposed to rain, and nothing ruins a party in Charlotte better than Mother Nature, but let's hope you are right. As to the topic at hand, using tomorrow as a measuring stick for what it is like on an average Saturday afternoon in Uptown is kind of a reach.

It's difficult to conclude what would have been developed around where the Arena and Stadium sit or to speculate if those venues are adding to development in Uptown or detracting from it. I agree that there is pretty good evidence that for the parcels of land directly adjacent to the Stadium and Arena, having them there is not a magic pill for development, and that the existence of a park seems to be more attractive for development. However, that said, I feel that having the Stadium and Arena within 277 has had a positive effect on Uptown development, but we can also argue about the merits of those developments as each of us has their own preferences.

[monsoon]

Okay so let's all meet downtown this Saturday (tomorrow) at 3PM to discuss. You in, Monsoon? Because I'll be there for sure.

Call me crazy, but I have a feeling it will be just *slightly* more active/rowdy/crazy than back in the good ol' days of 1969. I'll go out on a huge limb here and predict that 150,000+ visitors will be visiting the Center City tomorrow.

Just a gut feeling I have, don't know why...

You are being a bit sarcastic as I would assume because anyone that is serious about discussing this topic would know this is a special case. I can go to the Lowes Motor Speedway when they hold a race and easily find more people than this there. Does this make that an nice urban environment? No.

Now when anyone wants to have a serious discussion please get back with me.

[ChesterCopperPot]

I will have the pleasure of walking to the game tomorrow at a well-placed stadium.

The arena has events on 18 different days this month. I think the arena has been poorly run, just now getting a naming rights deal in place, and has not been able to book concerts at a pace they should have been, but it gets more activity than most realize. The venues have certainly helped transform uptown from a 9-5 M-F atmosphere, to one that operates close to 18 hours every day of the week. I was uptown in the early 80's, and it certainly was not thriving.

Monsoon, I'm sorry your Mommy's and Daddy's shops are gone. But the truth is, they have nothing to do with this topic. They were torn down before the thought of any sporting venue was to be built inside the loop. In fact, given your population figures of uptown, the arguement can be made that increase from 1996-2008 came as a result of putting these sporting venues within walking distance of uptown residences. You seem bent on arguing the exact opposite. There are examples where sporting venues have been well placed and have spurred increased activity close to city centers rather than dead zones - Pepsi Center in Denver, Camden Yards in Baltimore, the Verizon Center in DC, Qwest Field in Seattle (although SafeCo came first), Soldier Field in Chicago. They are some of the ones that I have visited that come to mind. Charlotte, in my opinion, did a pretty good job on placement, and has limited the killer fields of parking lots that really destroy activity (think Charlotte Coliseum, the Meadowlands, Arrowhead Stadium in KC, Dolphin Stadium outside of Miami, or FedEx Field in DC).

But Monsoon, I think you are right, taxpayer money should not have solely paid for the arena, nor should it have gone for retail in the center city. But given the decisions made, I think Charlotte did okay.

[monsoon]

For you people who want to first inform me or anyone else what is appropriate for this topic, I suggest that you first go find that out for yourself. I will post the relevant part of the header post of this topic.

.....

Looking at these examples (or ones from other cities you may be familiar with), what would you change about Charlotte? Would you put the venues in one isolated location? Leave them as is? Also, what about the proposed baseball stadium? Would you move it elsewhere? How would you want it to be accessible?....

The question was asked on what you would do different in Charlotte in regards to building these venues. This shouldn't be that hard to understand and it should lead to some interesting discussion on Urbanplanet. All of my comments above were in the context of of this question For those of you who tried to post on these lines, I thank you. For some of you however if you can't bother to read back through a topic before responding then you don't need to post here. If your post was deleted, then too bad. Send a PM if you want to find out more.

[Neo]

The question was asked on what you would do different in Charlotte in regards to building these venues. This shouldn't be that hard to understand and it should lead to some interesting discussion on Urbanplanet. All of my comments above were in the context of of this question For those of you who tried to post on these lines, I thank you. For some of you however if you can't bother to read back through a topic before responding then you don't need to post here. If your post was deleted, then too bad. Send a PM if you want to find out more.

The original topic of this post was related to sports venues specifically however, not Charlotte as a city or other parts of the 'urban' fabric. Much of the discussion that has taken place in this topic has been somewhat off-topic since it has been a discussion of how downtown Charlotte lost its vibrancy in the early 80's. Keep in mind this was BEFORE our sports venues were located downtown, thus discussion of this has no place in this particularly topic IMO.

Anyone is free to create a new topic based on half of what has been discussed here, but let us get back on topic which is regarding sports venues in our city, not about the loss of vibrancy because the old urban fabric was razed. This has absolutely nothing to do with the sports venues as it happened before they were built.