Charlotte Sports Complex (Bojangles Coliseum area)

[Andyc545]

Nobody has said here that people don't ride the train. I am not sure what point you are trying to make except to prove that most people attending the venue choose something other than Lynx. It adds to the argument that a sports venue should not be placed due to routing of LRT, especially if such placement is to create a big dead zone in the middle of the city.

As I said above, Philly did it right.

Let's put facts up front. Each light rail vehicle has 68 seats but capacity of 236 passengers. Current trains run for big events with 2 combined trains. That is 472 passengers per trip. Trains during events stage trains now and run every 7.5 minutes, although I think they are getting up to 5 minutes now. At 7.5 minute intervals that is a capacity of running 8 trips per hour or 3776 passengers an hour. At 5 minute intervals, 12 trips per hour or 5664 passengers per hour. It's obvious that heavy rail is much more practical for handling large crowds, however light rail has proven to be efficient enough to handle Carolina Panther's crowds as well as arena crowds at this point in time. BofA Stadium has 73778 Seats Capacity and TWC Arena has 19026 seats capacity although is increased for concerts.

Now Monsoon, your favorite line "The Proof is in the Pudding" leads me to my conclusion that the evidence is going to a game and experiencing it for oneself. I went to the Monday night game and although I arrived extremely early (3:30 in the afternoon on lightrail), I left on light rail at the end of the game when everyone else did and got on the next train immediately. It's not impractical to believe that it takes at least an hour to empty out a stadium. When you account people that leave earlier, show up later, use buses, automobiles, or alternative transportation, or go out to places in uptown afterward (Bars, clubs, etc), it makes sense how after Panther games LYNX is able to handle passengers that will either get on the next available train or may have to only wait for one train. One will not sit or stand in line for an hour solely to get on a train before or after an NFL game, let alone an event at the smaller capacity arena.

Now if you account how much longer it takes for a car sitting in traffic before or after a game that decided to park near the stadium or arena, one could conclude that you will spend less downtime waiting by taking the lightrail. I know this because I met a few friends who sat in line for 30+ minutes just to park at the Observer parking lot.

[monsoon]

Let's put facts up front. ....

Yet you did not do this. CATS does not have enough trains to run at 5 minutes intervals. They would run out of trains first. The math is easy enough to figure out. Second, they are not running at 5 minute intervals for safety reasons. Otherwise I agree with your numbers. It proves the light rail train has very little capacity to move people in a 15 minute period. I have been on heavy rail systems that had 4500 people on one train and they were moving these at <3 minute head times.

[Norm2]

Numbers can be nice and all, but sitting on a computer number crunching and experiencing Lynx after game are two different things in my opinion.

[New Name]

Monsoon, I know you have an opinion about sports arenas creating dead zones, but you're relegating them to the same utilitarian category as an airport. Sports teams exists to bolster community pride - sports arenas, therefor, exists for the same purpose. What better place centralize community pride than in the heart of the community? A well connected community should have a number of transportation options, including rail, highways, bike trails, and adequate housing solutions within walking distance (for those of us who attend games very regularly). The community should also have many other uses, so as it shouldn't be considered utilitarian in nature and to offer more use before and after the event - this will defuse crowds before and after the event into more manageable groups.

[monsoon]

Numbers can be nice and all, but sitting on a computer number crunching and experiencing Lynx after game are two different things in my opinion.

I am sure it is nice since not many appear to be using it after a game and/or not many are attending the games. However I have tried to ride that train during a downtown event and while the free parking was nice, the ordeal wasn't worth it.

Aside from that however your post completely misses the point of this topic.

[Norm2]

What ordeal did you have to go through? Yes i agree the subject of Lynx in this thread is off topic.

[mad_park]

One complaint I've heard of is folks headed to a game waiting for a train at Woodlawn only to find it packed with fans from farther south on the line. Seems like if they do go to 3 car trains they shouldn't have 3 car platforms on the inbound line until Woodlawn or Scaleybark.

Have also heard of folks walking from BofA stadium all the way up the 7th street just to get on the train instead of fighting the crowds at Stonewall.

[monsoon]

^Unfortunately, if they upgrade one platform to 3 trains, then they have to upgrade them all. The way Lynx is designed there is no ability to have express service (skip stations) and there really is no acceptable way to load/unload a 3 car train on a 2 car platform. This is why Tober's decision to cut the station size to make up some of the the money he wasted on the project, was so short sighted.

[Andyc545]

Yet you did not do this. CATS does not have enough trains to run at 5 minutes intervals. They would run out of trains first. The math is easy enough to figure out. Second, they are not running at 5 minute intervals for safety reasons. Otherwise I agree with your numbers. It proves the light rail train has very little capacity to move people in a 15 minute period. I have been on heavy rail systems that had 4500 people on one train and they were moving these at <3 minute head times.

I posted statistics for LYNX and our uptown sports venues. Secondly I gave first hand experience to what it is to ride LYNX when an 80,000 person venue takes place. Thirdly, I did not disagree with you on heavy rail, that's why I said "obvious that heavy rail is much more practical for handling large crowds, however light rail has proven to be efficient enough to handle Carolina Panther's crowd". I backed up why it is sufficient enough. Fine about the 5 minute intervals, 7.5 min intervals. Either way if you throw Panthers stadium say out in Fort Mill where it had an original concept where the Knight's stadium is, you are looking at 80k people traveling by car. You will be sitting in traffic for a lot of time, eliminating the option for people to utilize alternative modes of transport, and have an impact on the urban economy and it's dozens of offerings that contribute events at the arena and stadium as HUGE economic boosters. I can't tell if there is an argument about having heavy rail linked to a stadium or arena to handle the crowds or not, but it's coming and will be extremely convenient to both venues for North Charlotte. Right now there is no heavy rail in Charlotte nor the possibility of there being one when we wake up tomorrow, so in the case of what the city has to offer now, there is technically NO option to handle a large majority of pedestrian traffic aside from the interstate and road network, therefor what difference does heavy rail have to the topic at hand (regarding sports complex versus central location)? The main opposition to our setup that I buy is the effects of dead zones during non-event times, although I support sport venues in urban locations such as we have in Charlotte.

[cltcardfan]

All this talk of venues emptying into the streets and herds of people-cattle rushing onto trains at once doesn't hold any water in my opinion, and no one's math can explain the dynamics here. Part of the appeal of having these venues downtown is the growth of businesses nearby that cater to these people before and after events. In reality, it's not a race to get home when the venue is downtown. People leave early, people stay after a bit, people go out, people walk around downtown, people go do other things that downtown has to offer. Obviously, this is not the case in the 'burbs. It's not like 20,000 lemmings with the same color shoes march outside to the trains, and when they're full they leave and the rest fall on the tracks.

[mad_park]

^Unfortunately, if they upgrade one platform to 3 trains, then they have to upgrade them all. The way Lynx is designed there is no ability to have express service (skip stations) and there really is no acceptable way to load/unload a 3 car train on a 2 car platform. This is why Tober's decision to cut the station size to make up some of the the money he wasted on the project, was so short sighted.

Heading inbound you would have 2 car platforms 1/2 way up the line....only start loading the 3rd car at Scaleybark and onward in. This prevents all 3 cars from filling up at 485 and having people at the other stations see several full trains pass by. Outbound you would need to go 3 car platforms the entire way.

[uptownliving]

All this talk of venues emptying into the streets and herds of people-cattle rushing onto trains at once doesn't hold any water in my opinion, and no one's math can explain the dynamics here. Part of the appeal of having these venues downtown is the growth of businesses nearby that cater to these people before and after events. In reality, it's not a race to get home when the venue is downtown. People leave early, people stay after a bit, people go out, people walk around downtown, people go do other things that downtown has to offer. Obviously, this is not the case in the 'burbs. It's not like 20,000 lemmings with the same color shoes march outside to the trains, and when they're full they leave and the rest fall on the tracks.

I could not agree more...the thinking that everyone leaves at the same time is stereotypical suburban thinking. Like you said in an urban environment there are many options...whereas in the old days of the Colisiem on Tyvola there really was only one option...you had to leave (and do it by car)

[monsoon]

All this talk of venues emptying into the streets and herds of people-cattle rushing onto trains at once doesn't hold any water in my opinion, and no one's math can explain the dynamics here. Part of the appeal of having these venues downtown is the growth of businesses nearby that cater to these people before and after events. In reality, it's not a race to get home when the venue is downtown. People leave early, people stay after a bit, people go out, people walk around downtown, people go do other things that downtown has to offer. Obviously, this is not the case in the 'burbs. It's not like 20,000 lemmings with the same color shoes march outside to the trains, and when they're full they leave and the rest fall on the tracks.

The Panther's stadium has been sitting there for 20 years and if anything it pretty much drove businesses away from around it. That part of downtown is completely dead despite all of the grand predictions made when the decision was being made for it to be put there, instead down on the SC line, that it would create a huge entertainment district in that quadrant of Charlotte. Instead it is a dead zone. Not one of those predictions came true. In the same token, I don't see anything going up and being supported by the crowds from the Arena. If anything it "competes" with surrounding businesses for $ when it is open, but most of the time of the year, it is closed not creating any business for anyone. A huge dead zone right in the center of downtown taking up an entire city block. Likewise there is also nothing around Memorial Stadium.

It is a myth that sports venues spur economic activity around them. Charlotte has plenty of proof of that.

[monsoon]

.....the thinking that everyone leaves at the same time is stereotypical suburban thinking......

Really? The first sentence of the directions page on the Time Warner Arena website makes note there are 30,000 parking spaces available within walking distance of the place. Thiis is equal to almost two parking spaces per person at the seating caps for some of their events. They realize, as operators of the place,t they would be out of business instantly if it wasn't for people coming and going by car. Suburban thinking. haha Get back to me when they start putting something besides big box retail next to downtown Charlotte. LOL

[monsoon]

Heading inbound you would have 2 car platforms 1/2 way up the line....only start loading the 3rd car at Scaleybark and onward in. This prevents all 3 cars from filling up at 485 and having people at the other stations see several full trains pass by. Outbound you would need to go 3 car platforms the entire way.

The reason this doesn't work is on the return trip. How do you make people get off the 3rd car when you get back into the portion with 2 car platforms. The FTA will not allow trains to stop at stations that can't handle the train.

[cltcardfan]

The Panther's stadium has been sitting there for 20 years and if anything it pretty much drove businesses away from around it. That part of downtown is completely dead despite all of the grand predictions made when the decision was being made for it to be put there, instead down on the SC line, that it would create a huge entertainment district in that quadrant of Charlotte. Instead it is a dead zone. Not one of those predictions came true. In the same token, I don't see anything going up and being supported by the crowds from the Arena. If anything it "competes" with surrounding businesses for $ when it is open, but most of the time of the year, it is closed not creating any business for anyone. A huge dead zone right in the center of downtown taking up an entire city block. Likewise there is also nothing around Memorial Stadium.

It is a myth that sports venues spur economic activity around them. Charlotte has plenty of proof of that.

Unlike you I actually live downtown and spend 99% of my time here - in my view the Panthers stadium has been a net gain, albeit small. It certainly hasn't driven business away, and it hasn't attracted a lot either, but for at least 8 Sundays every year over 70,000 people come downtown and hang out. That shot of life means a lot to me as a downtown dweller. When I go to walk my dog on a Sunday morning and see people everywhere, I truly get excited about things and you can feel the energy just being outside. I can't fault you for not understanding this though.

But we've been talking about light rail and servicing that newfangled $300 million arena those big city folk always talk about.

I heard they finally did something with the old convention center...and that parking lot next to it.... and some hotel on that tiny piece....and that other BofA deal....

[uptownliving]

Really? The first sentence of the directions page on the Time Warner Arena website makes note there are 30,000 parking spaces available within walking distance of the place. Thiis is equal to almost two parking spaces per person at the seating caps for some of their events. They realize, as operators of the place,t they would be out of business instantly if it wasn't for people coming and going by car. Suburban thinking. haha Get back to me when they start putting something besides big box retail next to downtown Charlotte. LOL

Yes really. That parking is used by office workers during the day and arena events at night. There is no dedicated parking for the arena. It is a much more effiecent use of resources than the suburban model of mowing down 100 acres of trees and building exclusive parking for the arena and all of the new roads and other infrstructure that has to be built to service it.

The downtown arena gives you many more options to get to and from the arena plus many more walkable options of stuff to do before and after the event.

[Charlotte_native]

My good friend works for the Marriott downtown. He'll tell you that game weekends are BY FAR the busiest weekends of the year for them. The restaurant is slammed, the hotel is slammed, the parking garages are full. Same goes for CAN's, Blackfinn, the rest of the hotels, etc, etc. But yeah, I'm sure it's just a myth. The leaders of the 50+ major cities that have sports arenas - and those who organize the 32 college football bowl games this year - they're probably just blinded by the facts. The cities see no reward.

Ask anyone who works in any uptown hotel, restaurant, or bar and they'll tell you the same. I have friends that work in them and others that own them -- they were all holding their breath hoping for a playoff game here for the huge influx of cash they get from every home game.

I'd be very curious to know exactly (not broad statement, but names and locations) what businesses have been driven FROM the area because of the stadium. I can't think of one. I also can't really think of any that have located themselves nearby just because of it either. These statements just seem to be opinion (tainted by a predisposed dislike of the stadiums location) based on no fact. They also seem to come from those who don't care to go to the events either but as a distant observer. Excuse me if I'm wrong, I've just never seen or read any first hand experiences.

The thought that the stadium would spur growth around it might have been flawed, yet I can't recall what time frame was given for that. Unless one chooses not to count Novare's huge project (not that I think it is there because of the stadium), or chooses to ignore the 18 acres across the street cleared and prepped to develop by Beazer (who since has collapsed but was moving forward -- collapse also had nothing to do with the stadium), two very large projects adjacent to it have come about.

This dead zone provides a lot of money on game days to many people and businesses -- the obvious restaurants, hotels, and bars. Add in the owners of parking lots for blocks around (and not just the every day parking lots, but the business owners nearby who rent their spaces for events), the folks that set up BBQ grills and others that vend food, vendors outside the stadium with hats, clothing, and other fan related stuff. None of this occured with the Hornets arena out in nowhere land. Just the arena pulling in parking money and selling stuff inside and people driving in and driving out without no tailgating or related activity.

I'm delighted that the stadium is where it is, as are quite a few other locals. Nothing will ever be built or developed that will please everyone.

Yes really. That parking is used by office workers during the day and arena events at night. There is no dedicated parking for the arena. It is a much more effiecent use of resources than the suburban model of mowing down 100 acres of trees and building exclusive parking for the arena and all of the new roads and other infrstructure that has to be built to service it.

I'd like to know one suburban mall, project, or anything that provides this duality of uses. I'd really like to know -- if there is one fantastic -- glad to know pavemenet and resources are being well utilized.

[Spartan]

Monsoon, I know you have an opinion about sports arenas creating dead zones, but you're relegating them to the same utilitarian category as an airport. Sports teams exists to bolster community pride - sports arenas, therefor, exists for the same purpose. What better place centralize community pride than in the heart of the community? A well connected community should have a number of transportation options, including rail, highways, bike trails, and adequate housing solutions within walking distance (for those of us who attend games very regularly). The community should also have many other uses, so as it shouldn't be considered utilitarian in nature and to offer more use before and after the event - this will defuse crowds before and after the event into more manageable groups.

Stadiums/arenas do create dead zones in two ways. 1) Their street frontages (if not surrounded by parking lots) are always harsh for pedestrians. Sure they have wide sidewalks, but for non-gamedays its not appealing to walk by them, plus there's usually no reason to do so. 2) Usually they are surrounded by acres of parking, or at the very least have other mandatory parking infrastructure that create dead space for pedestrian activity.

Either way, its the parking infrastructure that creates the dead space beyond the street frontage of the stadium. Smaller arenas like TWC aren't always culprits for #2, but they are usually the worst for #1. Look at TWC- Brevard and 5th are both boring to walk by. They do nothing to activate those streets. As I said before, Trade Street is the one saving grace of TWC Arena.

We are fortunate in Charlotte that our stadiums are not in the center of large dead zones- at least not at the level of other cities. Our dead zones are comparatively small. The advantages of an urban stadium are that parking is less of an issue because where it exists, its often in a mixed use building or at the very least in a vertical parking structure. You also have multiple transportation options, and other entertainment venues like bars/restaurants in the vicinity. The events do support existing local businesses, but I don't agree that it spurs new restaurants/bars/retail development based on location. Instead, the community pride and team's events help support and possibly generate businesses in existing entertainment districts. In Charlotte, I think that means that Uptown is a good candidate for an entertainment district. The games get people Uptown and can potentially broaden the customer base for Uptown venues.

However, other cities also benefit from the Panther's success. Bars and restaurants across the Carolinas will fill up for Saturday's playoff game.

instead down on the SC line, that it would create a huge entertainment district in that quadrant of Charlotte.

It is a myth that sports venues spur economic activity around them. Charlotte has plenty of proof of that.

Since it creates a dead zone in Uptown, why would it create a "huge entertainment district" on the SC line?

[monsoon]

Sports teams exists to bolster community pride - sports arenas, therefor, exists for the same purpose. What better place centralize community pride than in the heart of the community? ....

Professional sports teams, what we are talking about here, exist for one single reason, to make money for their owners, players and investors. They have no other reason to exist. This was demonstrated perfectly when Charlotte's first modern professional sports team, The Hornets, packed their bags and moved to NO when they got a better financial deal there. You can bet that if Bob Johnson felt that if he could wrangle some deal out of another city that would put him in a better financial position than what he can get here, he would be gone in a second.

In regards to community pride, I would say that if a community feels that it's worth is judged based on the performance of a NBA team then there is something very wrong with that community. The only time that Charlotteans have had a chance to have a say in the matter, they voted down giving more tax money to these teams. It should be no surprise they have not been asked again.

Since it creates a dead zone in Uptown, why would it create a "huge entertainment district" on the SC line?

SC wanted the stadium on the state line given that state's support for this expansion team helped convince the NFL to place a team here. The argument given for not putting it there was the theory that it should be placed in an urban environment as that would spur a huge new tax base from all the new businesses that would spring up around the stadium. This, they said, would more than offset the investment the taxpayers were going to have to make. A square mile of buildings was leveled in preparation for all this growth. Of course it never happened and as usual for Charlotte, it's not spoken of or even acknowledged now and that part of downtown is an urban disaster zone.

I did not mean to imply that an entertainment district would have been formed in SC.

[kermit]

The argument given for not putting it there was the theory that it should be placed in an urban environment as that would spur a huge new tax base from all the new businesses that would spring up around the stadium. This, they said, would more than offset the investment the taxpayers were going to have to make. A square mile of buildings was leveled in preparation for all this growth.

Forgive the ignorance, I did not live here at the time. The stories I had heard was that the stadium was built on a scrapyard site and the only taxpayer funding for the stadium was the land grant of the brownfield site -- otherwise the stadium was paid for via PSL revenue.

Was I misinformed?

[queensguy06]

Professional sports teams, what we are talking about here, exist for one single reason, to make money for their owners, players and investors. They have no other reason to exist. This was demonstrated perfectly when Charlotte's first modern professional sports team, The Hornets, packed their bags and moved to NO when they got a better financial deal there. You can bet that if Bob Johnson felt that if he could wrangle some deal out of another city that would put him in a better financial position than what he can get here, he would be gone in a second.

I disagree with this. If this were the case, over 3/4 of the NFL teams would be chomping at the bit for a move to L.A., and half of the southern NHL teams would have moved north. Do I think that business plays a large part in terms of where teams locate/relocate? Sure, like you say it is a business. However, you make it seem as though if a better deal came along a pro team would move in a heartbeat and I just don't think that is accurate. There were many reasons as to why George Shinn moved the Hornets to New Orleans, not solely because he got a good deal from the city. Hell, half the city of Charlotte didn't even want him or the Hornets to stick around.

Getting back to the actual topic, because I feel we have strayed way off here, I do like the placement of the park and the baseball field. No additional parking is necessary at all, and a minor league field is really not that big of a stadium, so I don't think the 'dead area' created during its closed periods would have that much of an affect on future business coming to the surrounding streets. Either there, or I was a big fan of the original plan to build the ball park in South End.

[monsoon]

Forgive the ignorance, I did not live here at the time. The stories I had heard was that the stadium was built on a scrapyard site and the only taxpayer funding for the stadium was the land grant of the brownfield site -- otherwise the stadium was paid for via PSL revenue.

Was I misinformed?

You are correct about the PSLs. The taxpayers did spend however, I believe, $56M for the stadium project. In return for agreeing to put the stadium in downtown Charlotte, the city agreed to fund this amount. Part of that money was spent to reroute Graham street as the stadium sits right on top of the original road. When they did this, they also had to buy up all the businesses that lined this fairly busy road and level them. There were also taxpayer paid for upgrades covering the utilities, other road upgrades, etc.

Before that stadium was put in, there was a fairly nice urban grid there containing a lot of older buildings that would have been perfect for redevelopment into an urban stroll district. It did not look like the wasteland of concrete that one sees today that nobody goes to except for the few times/year there is an event in the stadium. To be fair the building of the southern portion of I-277 did a great deal of destruction too in this area. If you want to imagine what this area used to look like there is a short stretch of the original buildings on Morehead between the stadium and S. Tryon.

[Hardcore_Hokie]

It's interesting that posts get deleted from this forum when someone disagrees with the Admin.

A point was made (rather matter of factly) that sports venues do nothing for the local

economy ("It is a myth that sports venues spur economic activity around them"). I replied, disagreed with that opinion, and gave facts and references to support my view. And my posts are later deleted. Very interesting.

[cltcardfan]

Don't act so surprised, you should feel lucky to still have an internet connection after disagreeing with Mr. Personality.

I just got back from the Bobcats/Celtics game and a postgame beer with friends (GREAT win). The stadium was 90% full and very loud and energetic...on my way out I could've sworn I saw you-know-who at the light rail station with a stopwatch and handheld counter shaking his head disapprovingly.