A Fayetteville Streetcar/Trolley

[Stormcrow]

If it doesn't have overhead wires then it is not a trolley. A trolley gets its name from the trolley poles on top of it that connect to the overhead wires. The are ways for a trolley system to be powered without overhead wires. Some systems in the U.S. have a power unit that can be used to power the trolley if something is wrong with the electrical system. What is wrong with the overhead wires? I sort of like them. They add to the streetscape.

[Mith242]

To be totally honest, I never even notice the power lines on River Rail. I would really hope that that doesn't become such a hot button issue.

There are ways to deliver power from a rail embedded in the street but I think then you would then have to limit pedestrian access over the tracks since I'm pretty sure you have to run these guys on fairly high voltage power. Not done any of the background research on that though.

As for other alternatives like chemical fuels, well...that just does away with the novelty IMO. Then it's just a gaudily decorated bus.

[Mith242]

A new link that was posted on the River Rail topic. Talks about a few cities and their trolley's including Little Rock and the effects a trolley had in those areas. Thanks to ndark for the link.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/082408/bus_470453.shtml

[hogwash]

I remember talking about this in college in a course. We talked about routing it down Dickson from campus to block and up to the square then down Mountain towards the (new) library north on School, then west on Center, then north on West back to the WAC. Obviously, some things have changed since then.

Regardless, I believe any system will need to be closely tied to planned parking improvements in the area as it is an entertainment district and a large amount of the customers have to drive there. That would make it useful for easing the demand to park so close to one's destination for the day or evening.

Most of the land within a 3-4 block area of that line are generally zoned very liberally as either Main St. Center or Downtown General. There is considerable room for redevelopment and intensification of uses, although the neighborhood will ultimately have something to say (i.e. that proposed hotel at block and Dickson). I think a central trolley system would be great and could be a vital cog in tying the square, dickson, and that downtown neighborhood into a more cohesive unit. I think it'd be great for spurring development of some of those vacant lots, parking lots, and possible redevelopment of incompatible structures along Block.

It would be nice if the authority than ran it co-opted with local bars and restaurants to pay for rides in some way, or if they offered some sort of pass. In LR, it costs a dollar to ride the trolley anywhere. For me its simply not worth riding because I can walk to my destination as easily as I can ride the trolley. If they offered a yearly or monthly pass or worked with the restaurants and bars I'd be a lot more likely to ride it, but for now I'll keep my dollar and walk.

[Mith242]

I remember talking about this in college in a course. We talked about routing it down Dickson from campus to block and up to the square then down Mountain towards the (new) library north on School, then west on Center, then north on West back to the WAC. Obviously, some things have changed since then.

Regardless, I believe any system will need to be closely tied to planned parking improvements in the area as it is an entertainment district and a large amount of the customers have to drive there. That would make it useful for easing the demand to park so close to one's destination for the day or evening.

Most of the land within a 3-4 block area of that line are generally zoned very liberally as either Main St. Center or Downtown General. There is considerable room for redevelopment and intensification of uses, although the neighborhood will ultimately have something to say (i.e. that proposed hotel at block and Dickson). I think a central trolley system would be great and could be a vital cog in tying the square, dickson, and that downtown neighborhood into a more cohesive unit. I think it'd be great for spurring development of some of those vacant lots, parking lots, and possible redevelopment of incompatible structures along Block.

It would be nice if the authority than ran it co-opted with local bars and restaurants to pay for rides in some way, or if they offered some sort of pass. In LR, it costs a dollar to ride the trolley anywhere. For me its simply not worth riding because I can walk to my destination as easily as I can ride the trolley. If they offered a yearly or monthly pass or worked with the restaurants and bars I'd be a lot more likely to ride it, but for now I'll keep my dollar and walk.

[Mith242]

I sent an email to Mayor Jordan about the idea of a trolley and even send him a link to this topic. No idea if he's interested in the topic or forum. But I'm curious to see if he responds and what he thinks of the idea.

[skirby]

I remember talking about this in college in a course. We talked about routing it down Dickson from campus to block and up to the square then down Mountain towards the (new) library north on School, then west on Center, then north on West back to the WAC. Obviously, some things have changed since then.

Regardless, I believe any system will need to be closely tied to planned parking improvements in the area as it is an entertainment district and a large amount of the customers have to drive there. That would make it useful for easing the demand to park so close to one's destination for the day or evening.

Most of the land within a 3-4 block area of that line are generally zoned very liberally as either Main St. Center or Downtown General. There is considerable room for redevelopment and intensification of uses, although the neighborhood will ultimately have something to say (i.e. that proposed hotel at block and Dickson). I think a central trolley system would be great and could be a vital cog in tying the square, dickson, and that downtown neighborhood into a more cohesive unit. I think it'd be great for spurring development of some of those vacant lots, parking lots, and possible redevelopment of incompatible structures along Block.

It would be nice if the authority than ran it co-opted with local bars and restaurants to pay for rides in some way, or if they offered some sort of pass. In LR, it costs a dollar to ride the trolley anywhere. For me its simply not worth riding because I can walk to my destination as easily as I can ride the trolley. If they offered a yearly or monthly pass or worked with the restaurants and bars I'd be a lot more likely to ride it, but for now I'll keep my dollar and walk.

[hogwash]

Forgive my ignorance, I didn't realize they offered those.

[Stormcrow]

The River Rail offers passes. A day pass cost $2, a 3 day pass cost $5, and a 20 day pass will cost you $15. I would like to see the River Rail work out an agreement with the restaurants along the line to pay a certain amount in order to offer free rides every Friday and Saturday nights.

[Mith242]

One of my criticisms of River Rail is that it's sort of an honors system when paying. They have that money box there and if the conductor (or whatever they're called) aren't paying close attention you could easily just slip anything in there. A digital fare card reader would be easy and ideal. It's not a huge deal by any means but seems kind of a nuisance to have to pay with cash or a manually checked pass.

[aerotive]

"There was a small "trolley" service that consisted of a very small bus that existed in the downtown/ Dickson St. area a few years ago. I believe it was either free or a very minimal charge. It may have been part of the Downtown Dickson Street Enhancement District (I think that was the name of the group that handled the Dickson St. project). I guess it went away without notice- I rode it once just for fun and haven't seen it in years. "

Yeah I remember this too, think it was canceled due to low ridership.

And though I would really like Fayetteville/NWA to have a light-rail system, we do not have the necessary number of people or density to support such a service. It would take a massive subsidy all out of proportion to the area's population and the eventual ridership.

If we really want light rail, we should encourage infill development, local population growth, and a decent bus system. Consistently high gas prices would also help.

[Snaple4]

So I sent a letter to my two Ward reps. Here is what it said.

Transit Options, Trolley System?

2 messages Justin Snopko <[email protected]> Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:13 PM To: [email protected], [email protected]

Hello Mr. Cook and Mr. Petty:

It is a pleasure to be writing to you as my representatives, having resided within Ward 2's boundaries since 2005 and registered since 2008. This message, however, is not intended to bore you with my history but to inquire about some history of Fayetteville and your views. Recently there has been much discussion of transportation within the region and in our city. Parking, bus service, light rail, bike lanes and, bike/walking trails have all been mentioned in the media. What has not received any attention is a trolley or streetcar system. Has this topic been discussed by council members? The idea has been mentioned in the Urbanplanet.org Trolley Discussion with strong interest. The general idea from there would have a system initially run from the University down Dickson St. and then to the Square. The value of this would be hard infrastructure, mixed mass transit, game day use, Wal-Mart shareholder use, student use, and several others. These types of systems obviously have many restrictions and cons. This is why I ask for your input. Do you think this would be a viable topic to research for our city? Do you think our city might have a demand for this type of system? How would one go about receiving more input from members of our city? In addition, would the University have any data that would be relevant for this type of discussion?

Thank you for your time. Hope you have a great day!

Respectfully,

Justin Snopko

253-347-5922

Now we have the response from Mr. Petty and my response to his response.

Re: Transit Options, Trolley System? (Forward)

3 messages Matthew Petty - Fayetteville Ward 2 <[email protected]> Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:33 PM To: Justin Snopko <[email protected]>

Justin- The answer to your question is no. I don't think a trolley or streetcar system has been discussed.

That said, I am very in favor of a tram+bus system. Trolleys and streetcars have their pros and cons, and I think you listed most of them.

Other people to contact would be the Mayor, the Chamber of Commerce, and the office of the Vice Chancellor of University Advancement at the UA (tell him this will help them retain undergrads and graduates).

You may also be interested in the UA Community Design Center's study "NWA Light Rail" (Google it).

-Matt

--

FindMe@---> http://www.matthewpetty.org

Work-479.595.8303, Cell-479.871.9212

Skype-Twitter-Facebook: matthewpetty

Justin Snopko <[email protected]> Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:57 PM To: Matthew Petty - Fayetteville Ward 2 <[email protected]>

Mr. Petty,

Thank you for your response. One of the reasons for bringing up this discussion with you is from the lack of initiative the region seems to have with a light rail system

(I have tried to follow this topic as much as possible). Personally, a regional system would be the most appropriate option considering the regions layout and demographics but a local one may show to be just as effective and more plausible.

The contact suggestions are much appreciated and should prove to be most helpful. Over the next few weeks, attempts to contact these organizations and individuals will be made. If there seems to be enough positive interest, I will update you on the details and seek further guidance.

Have a great weekend.

Matthew Petty - Fayetteville Ward 2 <[email protected]> Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM To: Justin Snopko <[email protected]>

Justin - You should also talk with Art Hobson ([email protected]). He's a NWA Times columnist and retired physics teacher.

Another contact is Walter Graupner ([email protected]). He's trying to start a citizens' advocacy group.

I agree RE: local vs. regional. I think something we need to be aware of is that a regional system is inevitable, and any local system we build should be planned from the beginning to be part of something larger. It is for this reason that I advocate a tram system over streetcars. Any investment in infrastructure in streetcars diverts capital from regional infrastructure, whereas every dollar invested in a tram system serves us locally and regionally.

-Matt

--

FindMe@---> http://www.matthewpetty.org

Work-479.595.8303, Cell-479.871.9212

Skype-Twitter-Facebook: matthewpetty

Now we have Mr. Cooks response.

Transit Options, Trolley System?

Kyle Cook <[email protected]> Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:22 AM To: Matthew Petty <[email protected]>, [email protected]

Justin,

Thanks for the comments. Let me first say, I believe there will be numerous conversations going forward about the transit options for the citizens of Fayetteville. There needs to be a better transit system here in Fayetteville. Believe it or not a trolley system once existed in Fayetteville. It was started under the Mayor Hanna's administration and it pretty much followed the route you mentioned, but unfortunately, the lack of ridership doomed the program. I am willing to look at that option again, but the expense could put this out of reach right now. I personally believe the UA transit system could provide a similar route with little adjustment to what they do now. Thanks for your ideas and I will forward them along.

Kyle

[Snaple4]

So to be brief. What I get is that they will support looking into the idea and support it if there is strong community interest but they would rather go different options. Not sure if Mr. Cook knows the strict definition of a trolley that we discussed here. I hope to send out e-mails to the ones mentioned and also a letter to Mr. Cook on Sunday or Monday. Let me know if you have any suggestions on what to say or any suggestions on how/what I have wrote so far.

I also understand where Mr. Petty is coming from with wanting infrastructure to be designed for use with light rail. But that would could be done with a trolley; you would have a trolley stop at a light rail stop. But that, I am sure, is not what he meant. He meant that we increase our bus service or place a park and ride for bus where a light rail station might go... Something along those lines. I think having a trolley system would be to accompany a light rail and bus system. It would be an alternative mode of transportation that people use over a bus and for people who cant use light rail.

[zman9810]

So to be brief. What I get is that they will support looking into the idea and support it if there is strong community interest but they would rather go different options. Not sure if Mr. Cook knows the strict definition of a trolley that we discussed here. I hope to send out e-mails to the ones mentioned and also a letter to Mr. Cook on Sunday or Monday. Let me know if you have any suggestions on what to say or any suggestions on how/what I have wrote so far.

I also understand where Mr. Petty is coming from with wanting infrastructure to be designed for use with light rail. But that would could be done with a trolley; you would have a trolley stop at a light rail stop. But that, I am sure, is not what he meant. He meant that we increase our bus service or place a park and ride for bus where a light rail station might go... Something along those lines. I think having a trolley system would be to accompany a light rail and bus system. It would be an alternative mode of transportation that people use over a bus and for people who cant use light rail.

[Mith242]

So to be brief. What I get is that they will support looking into the idea and support it if there is strong community interest but they would rather go different options. Not sure if Mr. Cook knows the strict definition of a trolley that we discussed here. I hope to send out e-mails to the ones mentioned and also a letter to Mr. Cook on Sunday or Monday. Let me know if you have any suggestions on what to say or any suggestions on how/what I have wrote so far.

I also understand where Mr. Petty is coming from with wanting infrastructure to be designed for use with light rail. But that would could be done with a trolley; you would have a trolley stop at a light rail stop. But that, I am sure, is not what he meant. He meant that we increase our bus service or place a park and ride for bus where a light rail station might go... Something along those lines. I think having a trolley system would be to accompany a light rail and bus system. It would be an alternative mode of transportation that people use over a bus and for people who cant use light rail.

[Mith242]

Great initiative- good to hear what our elected reps think.

Mr. Cook is talking about the little bus that used to run around the Dickson St. area. It was nicknamed a trolley even though it was gasoline powered.

While the trolley and light rail are great ideas I don't know if they are actually feasible. Because of the way the central part of Fayetteville has developed there isn't the rightaway for those systems to be built in. It's hard enough to just get trails that wind along the streams and require no electric power or rails in place. A small trolley system along Dickson might have been feasible if installed during the recent project that reconstructed the street. Now, it would require another major reconstruction and cause another major disruption along the street. Another small bus system running during the times of day that it would get the most use might be the only viable solution.

The best way right now for Fayetteville to improve it's public transportation system is to support the current options of the Razorback Transit and Ozark Regional Transit. Increasing support for those options and continuing to add to the trails system are good ideas.

Until Fayetteville quits only paying lip service to the 2025 plan and actually takes steps to implement it, ideas like light rail and a trolley system are next to impossible. Until infill and redevelopment of the central part of town are made priorities density will not be great enough to support those systems. Increasing the density will require the political will to change the height restrictions to levels that will enable developers to build taller projects that are viable. Right now the price of land downtown is so expensive that you have to build UP in order to make a project work. Using variable impact fees that encourage infill and redevelopment and discourage sprawl, tax breaks and other incentives could help make make the central part of town much more attractive for mass transit systems.

[Snaple4]

Before I go into more. After my quick reading of other sites, the cost is around 20M per mile. I am not sure if this includes a trolley, or maintenance facility. But that was the number I read and assume it is just for the rail and power lines.

[Mith242]

Before I go into more. After my quick reading of other sites, the cost is around 20M per mile. I am not sure if this includes a trolley, or maintenance facility. But that was the number I read and assume it is just for the rail and power lines.

[zman9810]

Yeah I wish people and cities would quit using the term trolley and bus as if they're interchangeable. I see your points on the cons. It would require having to redo Dickson St not that long after all the improvements that were made a number of years ago. But I don't think you'd need anymore rightaway for a trolley. It would run right on the street and would affect traffic basically the same way a bus would. The rails are put into the road but that lane is still drivable for other vehicles. I think the bigger thing that will be noticed are the overhead wires to power a trolley. I can't argue we need to spend more money on bus services and the trail system. But I still think the trolley idea would be worth it. I think a lot more people would actually ride a trolley than they would a bus that the city calls a 'trolley'. Unfortunately I think a lot of people have some sort of stigma against riding a 'bus' but wouldn't have a problem riding a trolley. I don't know if Fayetteville ever had an actual trolley. But I'd think Fayetteville might have been big enough in the past to have had some sort of trolley somewhere in the city. I think a trolley would add character and activity to the area. I also think it brings out some historic nostalgia some older parts of the city. Even if we never had a trolley running through Dickson or the Square I think it will add historic appeal, especially to the Square. I just think the Square needs some help. Maybe some of the shops right on the Square do okay. But if you look at some of the locations right off the Square you see some empty buildings. I think the parking issue keeps some people away. I think a trolley helps solve that problem. People can park elsewhere and then ride the trolley to the Square. But anyway that's what I think about the whole thing. I say the first thing that needs to be done is a study. We need to know what kind of costs we're looking at here and any potential problems. Then I think we need to find some funding like the River Rail did. If Fayetteville had to pay all the costs that would probably be a sticking point for most people.

[Snaple4]

Those are good estimates. I did a google map layout and it was between 2-2.5 miles depending. I would push for a link to the UofA bus terminal, makes the most sense to me. But does anyone have any history on the LR system and how it came about, who got funding and how it was attained? I will post some questions on those forums later but I am about to go to work. I still need an actual job...

Also, I would be hesitant to suggest only paying 20% even if the UofA helps. I would imagine it would be in the 30-40 if lucky. Little rock has a higher pop and a natural barrier that the line crosses (water) and it is the capital. They have a little more leverage than little old Fay.

Also some of the street corners would have to be wider. Even the buses have a hard time going around some corners and a rail would need even more since it can not swing out into the other lane to make a corner. Rail requires more right-away than a bus.

[Mith242]

Those are good estimates. I did a google map layout and it was between 2-2.5 miles depending. I would push for a link to the UofA bus terminal, makes the most sense to me. But does anyone have any history on the LR system and how it came about, who got funding and how it was attained? I will post some questions on those forums later but I am about to go to work. I still need an actual job...

Also, I would be hesitant to suggest only paying 20% even if the UofA helps. I would imagine it would be in the 30-40 if lucky. Little rock has a higher pop and a natural barrier that the line crosses (water) and it is the capital. They have a little more leverage than little old Fay.

Also some of the street corners would have to be wider. Even the buses have a hard time going around some corners and a rail would need even more since it can not swing out into the other lane to make a corner. Rail requires more right-away than a bus.

[skirby]

Those are good estimates. I did a google map layout and it was between 2-2.5 miles depending. I would push for a link to the UofA bus terminal, makes the most sense to me. But does anyone have any history on the LR system and how it came about, who got funding and how it was attained? I will post some questions on those forums later but I am about to go to work. I still need an actual job...

Also, I would be hesitant to suggest only paying 20% even if the UofA helps. I would imagine it would be in the 30-40 if lucky. Little rock has a higher pop and a natural barrier that the line crosses (water) and it is the capital. They have a little more leverage than little old Fay.

Also some of the street corners would have to be wider. Even the buses have a hard time going around some corners and a rail would need even more since it can not swing out into the other lane to make a corner. Rail requires more right-away than a bus.

[Mith242]

The River Rail in Little Rock came about through the work of the Mayors of both LR and NLR and the Pulaski County Judge. The Mayors saw the trolley as a way to redevelop their cities. At that time the NLR mayor was seeking to redevelop Main Street and the LR mayor was looking to help with the redevelopment planned for the River Market.The planning was carried out by the Central Arkansas Transit Authority. A lot of the funding came from the New Starts program from the Federal Transit Administration. If both the city of Fayetteville and the U of A would work together I think it might succeed in getting funding. They could press the green aspects of a trolley over a bus.

As for street width I don't think this would be much of a problem. The photo below shows a street with two way traffic and a parking lane. A corner turn can be done from the curb lane not a second lane shown in the picture.

[zman9810]

The River Rail in Little Rock came about through the work of the Mayors of both LR and NLR and the Pulaski County Judge. The Mayors saw the trolley as a way to redevelop their cities. At that time the NLR mayor was seeking to redevelop Main Street and the LR mayor was looking to help with the redevelopment planned for the River Market.The planning was carried out by the Central Arkansas Transit Authority. A lot of the funding came from the New Starts program from the Federal Transit Administration. If both the city of Fayetteville and the U of A would work together I think it might succeed in getting funding. They could press the green aspects of a trolley over a bus.

As for street width I don't think this would be much of a problem. The photo below shows a street with two way traffic and a parking lane. A corner turn can be done from the curb lane not a second lane shown in the picture.

[Snaple4]

Thank you Skirby for the post. I was about to post a questions (and still will at some point) on the LR forum asking for some advice when my computer decided that it wanted to refresh the web page and remove all that was typed. I got mad and decided to wait.

That is true about the UofA not wanting to fund an off-campus issue (my opinion). Though doing a cos-share would be more likely if the idea ever became a prominent issue. The UofA is student oriented and if it is in the Students best interest and is feasible they will explore the idea.

Mith242, did you ever receive a reply from our Mayor? Has anyone else attempted communication with any other officials? I just want to make sure that I do not step on any toes or annoy anyone too much.

And again, thank you Skirby for answering my unasked questions.