Pembroke Development

[ronsmytheiii]

Hmm, I think I should go!

The Virginia Beach Planning Commission will hold a workshop on Monday, Aug. 10 at 5 p.m. in City Manager

[varider]

Hmm, I think I should go!

You should!

Make sure to bring back a full report,

[mlsimons]

Is this for the comprehensive plan for Pembroke/Town Center or for the entire city?

[varider]

I'm almost positive it is a comprehensive plan for the entire city. I really don't know what the heck the city can do lol. It's so far gone into sprawlsville. With almost half a million people the city looks like a busier Chesapeake. It's actually really sad. They better create a heck of a plan

[varider]

http://avengingarchangel.blogspot.com/

First item on the Agenda this morning for the Planning Commission was a Briefing on the draft Pembroke Area Implementation Plan.

Strategic Growth Area (SGA) 4 is about 1,200 acres, roughly the size of downtown Richmond. The Plan provides for 210-220 blocks of urban redevelopment. To put that in perspective, Town Center is only 10 blocks. At a bare minimum, the Plan would produce:

1. 6 million square feet of commercial space

2. 11 million square feet of office space

3. 12,000-15,000 housing units

4. 3,000 hotel rooms

Given how the Plan is executed, it could be more.

A couple things of note. First, the Plan puts the streets in the SGA into a classic urban grid pattern. Second, light rail would be elevated across Independence Boulevard, settling that debate on the sane side.

The Plan is slated to be voted on by the Planning Commission on September 9, then City Council on September 22. Given the way a few Commissioners were gushing, it's a safe bet that Planning approves it.

To put this in perspective:

• Norfolk has 3.2 million sq. feet of office space. Virginia Beach is going for 11 million. That's almost 4X DN
  
• Norfolk has about 2 million sq. feet of commercial space, including Macarthur. Virginia Beach is going for 6 million. Thats 3X DN
  
• Norfolk has about 3000 housing units. Virginia Beach is going for 12,000-15,000. That's 4-5X DN
  
• Norfolk has 1400 hotel rooms. Virginia Beach is going for 3,000. 2.5X DN
  

Basically, Virginia Beach plans to literally sh** on downtown Norfolk.. Of course this is a 20-60 year plan, but if everything goes well I should be alive to see it. If this plan is built out accordingly, Virginia Beach will have one of the best downtowns in the country. Population 24,000-30,000. Daytime population easily over 100,000-120,000

& this is the bare minimum! What do you guys think? Will Virginia Beach sprout a world renowned urban downtown? Or is this all talk?

But really? Isn't it about time Virginia Beach does something? It almost has half a million residents! It has more people than Miami, but it looks like Anywhere in the suburbs, U.S.A.

[urbanlife]

Even if only a fourth of this happens over the next 20-50 years, that would be a plus for VaBeach and the region.

[varider]

Hampton Roads would be crazy if this thing came to fruition. I used Google Earth, and Downtown Norfolk would only be 6 miles from downtown Virginia Beach. Imagine that. I'm sorta daydreaming about driving down 264 and seeing a skyline stretch for miles!

I did the math:

2.64X more office space, 4.343X more housing units, 2.143X more hotel rooms.

[Padman]

The plan estimates a holding capacity for future growth, it does not by itself create a market for it. Norfolk could do the same and create a plan for potential growth capacity in the downtown and surrounding areas. The area north of Brambleton and Fort Norfolk area could probably redevelop with similar capacities as Pembroke. But I wonder if the water crossing problems downtown might give the attraction edge to Pembroke?

[varider]

In my non expert opinion, I think Virginia Beach has more going for it. Pembroke is already busier than downtownNorfolk. If you took all those Pembroke 1 2 3 4 5 6 buildings, that could easily fill two 25 story towers. We have already seen the demand is there in Va Beach. It's twice as big as Norfolk, it's downtown should be twice as big as well. Think about how easy it would be to develop downtownVa Beach. There are seas of parking lots just waiting to be developed. But from what you guys say it's just a pipe dream, maybe I'm too excited.

[ronsmytheiii]

Though why not, and decided to send this email to Jones Lang LaSalle, the owners of Pembroke Mall:

Your company owns the Pembroke Mall property in Virginia Beach. I have noticed in recent visits the large numbers of vacancies in the mall as well as a massively under utilized back lot. Next door is to the mall is the Virginia Beach Town Center, a booming newurbanist central business district. I would highly suggest that the Pembroke mall property be redeveloped as a mixed use development with apartments as well as retail on an urban grid. The city of Virginia Beach has already indicated in its preliminary comprehensive plan for the site that it would support such a development, and that coupled with the prospect of a light rail station nearby your firm would stand to reap many times the net worth of the current facility on the property. Thank you for your time.

-Ron Smith

[urbanlife]

It will be just a matter of time before Pembroke Mall is redeveloped...for starters, it is probably the easiest way for downtown VaBeach to grow. Also, the mall area could grow more organically and not force the closing down of the mall, but the reconstruction of an urban mall in stages...plus what Pembroke Mall could sell off could easily pay for the costs of building a new mall for them.

Back in 2000-ish, when the town center was just beginning, I felt that the growth to Pembroke Mall was going to be the path that all of this takes...at that time, I sent this same email and was informed that the owners of Pembroke Mall had no intention of tearing down the mall, that they felt that the current suburban mall would be fine with proper renovations...but as the Town Center becomes a success, I have a hard time seeing that they could still keep this same point of view.

I think on the next upswing in the economy, we will begin to hear about future redevelopment plans of Pembroke Mall and its surrounding areas...which on a side note, I hope that whole development would be called "the Pembroke District" and the new urban mall could be called the "Pembroke Center." Just some ideas.

Though, the importance of the mall land is that VB would be able to create a much more organic modern downtown, something of that size would require more than one architecture firm to design it, there could be a larger push for affordable housing within that area, there could be a good size park that works with the housing of the area, as well as another social gathering like square would be needed....oh yes, it would be a dream for me to help create a redevelopment plan for this mall...haha, I am such an architecture and urban planning nerd.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/09/va-beach-c...center-pembroke

Planners briefed the City Council on Tuesday on an ambitious plan to remake 1,200 acres around the Pembroke vicinity into an urban core served by a light-rail project. The vision includes a skyline of tall office buildings, high-end apartments, parks, bike trails, a new grid-based road system, a marina on Thalia Creek and a sports arena. Town Center is hailed as a model for what the area could look like.

Council members, who will vote on the plan next month, stressed the long-term nature of the project.

"This is not something that is going to happen next year or in the next five years," Councilwoman Barbara Henley said. "But if we don't start, we'll continue to have the hodge podge we have today."

If the City Council adopts the plan, zoning changes will follow. City officials would solicit private developers to build projects. Light rail is a major catalyst, Deputy City Manager Steve Herbert said.

Sounds like a good plan. If the city solicits diligently, I'm sure plenty of developers will likely build stuff all throughout Pembroke. I honestly can't believe Virginia Beach has such a strong urban development model. It's amazing really, a skyline in VB? Wow. Who woulda thought suburban virginia beach would start plannning like a true city. Light rail will be the focus and the main selling point to developers.. Guys, in 30 years, we could have ourselves a big city downtown with a big city skyine.

[urbanlife]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/09/va-beach-c...center-pembroke

Sounds like a good plan. If the city solicits diligently, I'm sure plenty of developers will likely build stuff all throughout Pembroke. I honestly can't believe Virginia Beach has such a strong urban development model. It's amazing really, a skyline in VB? Wow. Who woulda thought suburban virginia beach would start plannning like a true city. Light rail will be the focus and the main selling point to developers.. Guys, in 30 years, we could have ourselves a big city downtown with a big city skyine.

Actually if you think about it, Atlanta is the big city without a downtown (which is a long urban theory thing, but basically its urban density started from basically nothing, it just happened to be at that location), which in the case of VB, there is little physical reason for a downtown to be in Pembroke because it has no historical roots to the city's growth (the oceanfront would be that true downtown location.) But there is a point that I am trying to make, basically if VB sticks to this plan and is very aggressive in making this plan happen, there is a strong possibility that VB could easily become Virginia's Atlanta (well sort of anyway).

[vaceltic]

I would think that if Virginia Beach doesnt stick to its plan, it would become Virginia's Atlanta......a soup sandwich!

[varider]

While both Virginia Beach and Atlanta both have sprawly suburban neighborhoods, Atlanta still has like 25 fortune 500 companies, over 500,000 residents, and is basically the capital of the south. VB has 1 or 2 fortune 1000 companies, and isn't even the strongest city in it's own metro.

Look in the paper version of the pilot, they have a rough rendering of 'downtown,' it doesn't show the entire area, but the western portion is like a San Francisco or Paris' downtown wih dense low- midrises, with a sorta La Defense thing around Town Center with taller buildings.. Also it's a couple taller buildings around the arena. They are calling this the "Long Term Urbanization Plan."

Think it will work? Say goodbye to the car dealerships lol.

[varider]

I watched the Council Session from yesterday..

Here's some notes:

The plan would produce an additional:

It was noted these are on the conservative side of the estimates:

13,000- 14,000 housing units. 20,000 residents.

9-10 million square feet of office space on top of the current 2.5 million.

6 million square feet of retail.

1 million square feet of civic use.

3000 additional hotel rooms.

Sessoms said "The additional sq.footage blows my mind."

SGA # 4 is 1200 acres.

There are 4 distinct districts. They are:

CBD (Town Center expanded west of Indy., North to mall, East to Barnes & Nobles and Princess Anne High)

High Density. Financial District. Cultural Arts District. Theaters, Museums. Skyline.

Central Village District.

Medium density. Bohemian style. Place for local businesses to grow and prosper.

Western Campus District.

Additional schools built in a campus style setting to serve the additional population.

Waterfront Area.

Central park. Vertical, More urban, Princess Anne High. Mix of residential and office with residential facing residential. Medium- High density.

Transportation Plan:

Light Rail, Busses, Bikes, Pedestrian.

Light rail would be elevated amd within 1/2 mile of both edges of the SGA.

Indy would be tunneled throughout the entire SGA to create pedestrian oriented streets.

Constitution and Market extended to Bonney.

2 flyovers over 264 to connect to the Southern Corporate District.

4 LRT stations.

Virginia Beach Blvd. slowed down, lined with artwork, trees, street frontages.

Urban grid.

Full use of urban services (fire, police, schools).

In communication with fire, police chief, school superintendent. More fire stations, police stations, and schools will be needed.

Environmental:

Would like to be a model city. Clean up the bay. Green buildings. Urban park system.

Goals:

Attract employers.

Retain creative class.

Create a place for youth to return and have good careers.

Attract more visitors through urban tourism.

Main concern:

Transportation. A few councilmembers were concerned about how gridlocked it already is. They are afraid the enormous increase in population and activity will make it impossible to travel. (LRT is the key)

The plan has been finalized. Council votes on Nov. 10. and then implementation.

Mayor Sessoms finished the meeting by saying:

"You don't know how excited I am. We're going to do this thing."

[ronsmytheiii]

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/plan...on_00-final.pdf

city council presentation

[mistermetaj]

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/plan...on_00-final.pdf

city council presentation

That looks like Charlotte number 2. My biggest hope is for tree lined streets throughout and more low to midrises than actual high rises. On a human level, low rises make the city much more intimate and comfortable. I also hope a lot more brick is used than glass.

[cityboi757]

I thought it looked like San Fransisco mixed with D.C. mixed with Atlanta.

[urbanlife]

This is exactly what Norfolk should be doing, this is a very smart plan for the future for VB...looking over this, it is roughly the same thing I would of proposed if given the chance.

I really do enjoy the notion that most of the downtown will be no higher that 50-100ft, which will give the city a very dense, but modest feeling...but I did catch a note that was really interesting that could one day lead to some serious Charlotte or Altanta like developments is the fact that the city core, which is the area around the Town Center is suggested to have no height limit in place, which means the Westin might one day be surpassed as the tallest in Virginia by a future tower in VB.

[cityboi757]

How cool would it be if we got some apartment/ condo towers breaking the 30- 40 floor mark.. If Virginia Beach does this right, I believe the entire plan could come to life. We already have things proposed like City Walk, Midtown, etc. I'm looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

[urbanlife]

Also another note, in the Central Village District (which I really like the idea of breaking the whole Pembroke into districts, which is the right way to do things) there is a space at the southern end next to 264 that is marked for a sports arena. VB seems like it would be a good location for a new MLS stadium to open up...something that is roughly 20,000 seats would be nice.

[RJWGMU]

That is one amazing plan!

[varider]

If you look on the bottom of each page they have what the skyline would look like and the holding capacity for square footage..

In the Town Center/ CBD section alone there is more office, housing units, hotel rooms, and commercial space then all of downtown norfolk. Just in that one part. That's some insane density.

[urbanlife]

If you look on the bottom of each page they have what the skyline would look like and the holding capacity for square footage..

In the Town Center/ CBD section alone there is more office, housing units, hotel rooms, and commercial space then all of downtown norfolk. Just in that one part. That's some insane density.

Now we just have to hope the city has the balls to stick to a plan like this, and when anything is proposed by a developer that doesnt fit in with this plan, they need to tell them to come back with something better....also, the first moves the city needs to start doing once this is approved is the road improvements. Start acquiring the right of ways now for realignments and new roads to be put into place, with that the city should begin buying up as much property as they can in the Pembroke area...the more land the city owns, the more control that they could have on their own downtown...also they need to start looking into new locations for the high school so that they can begin the new waterfront area.

There are a few things on this plan that do not require a good economy to be in place to do, those are the things the city needs to get to work on as fast as possible.

Also for the initial urban growth of this, each light rail stop should be seen as ground zero for urban redevelopment and the city needs to either start acquiring as much land around each stop or start working with developers that are willing to help the city start this urban growth points.