Providence's wish list

[Cotuit]

Why would the College Hill NIMBY crowd not permit a light-rail line in their neighborhood, if it’s located in a mile long tunnel that runs under the entire Eastside completely out of view? If the line were built they would use it just as everyone else in other parts of the city would.

[Pseudo_Work]

When the red line in Boston was proposed to be extended north of Harvard it was to go through Arlington to Lexington. It currently ends at Alewife short of Arlington and Lexington due to NIMBYism in those communities. The red line would have run on an existing rail bed (the current Minuteman Bike Path) with minimal construction issues to those towns. The NIMBYs had in large part racist and classist objections. Not wanting people from the city (i.e. minorities, poor people...) to be able to ride the train into their towns to rob them and bother them.

30-some years later, Greater Boston is much more transit oriented and were they to have it to do over again, perhaps everyone in Arlington and Lexington who now have to sit in traffic on Route 2 and jockey for spaces in the parking garage at Alewife would welcome the red line extension.

Not painting with broad brushes, but I would not be surprised to learn that there was a vocal minority on the East Side who had the same feelings about transit. Not wanting a subway station in their neighborhood because poor people might use it to invade their neighborhoods. The racism and classism would be hidden behind other 'concerns' but I don't believe we are past those thoughts. Just as we have nutters who literally are against trees and overnight parking because drug dealers might hide behind trees or parked cars.

There was almost outright rioting in the streets when bike lanes were painted on Blackstone Blvd. the East Side is not non-car friendly.

That all said, NIMBYism or no, I do think there should be an East Side rail line, and I think the East Side tunnel should be used to build it. I feel though, that communities on the West and South sides of the city who are currently transit customers should get the improved transit services first.

[frymasterspeck]

For your enjoyment, a bit from a blogger in Marin County, CA where, years ago, they refused to participate in the light rail system BART.

But what really chaps my hide is that typical Marin inward looking, selfish, narcissistic, not-in-my-backyard BS. I'm sorry, but if BART stations had been built in Marin way back when we were first contemplating the issue decades ago, we would not be in the [iNSANE auto traffic] mess that we find ourselves in today or at least it wouldn't be as bad.

[Cotuit]

As for where said line should be, I think it would be a bad idea to use the abandoned rail tunnel for this one. I would love to see it used for an actual commuter light rail line, since it was built for larger/heavier rail in the first place.

[Garris]

The NIMBY thing is a shame since the East Side was formed by streetcar lines and offers perhaps the most natural benefit of the reintroduction of streetcars. Two lines, one originating in Pawtucket going down East St to Hope St, then through Hope Village, and then on to downtown; and other line starting at the Southern end of Blackstone Blvd and continuing through Wayland Square and then to Thayer and downtown are absolute naturals and would connect some of the city's most compelling neighborhoods and attractions, from the Modern Diner, to the Blackstone Park, to the Blvd jogging trail, to Thayer St all to downtown. The young, hip "creative class" that so easily takes to mass transit in every other US city would find these lines and the neighborhoods that have them to be big attractions. Broadway would benefit from streetcars for the same reason. I think development and retail would thrive in the areas of these lines as well.

I think N. Main, Broad St, and the East Side Tunnel need a higher volume, larger light rail system which not only serve those areas, but neighboring communities (Cranston, E. Prov, Etc) as well.

I have a really hard time imagining where the theoretical Hospital->Brown line would run, and who would take it. The real key is to design a system that gets people from the high density residential areas:

- East Side

- West Side

- South Side

- Pawtucket

- Warwick/E. Prov/Cranson

To the high concentration job areas:

- Brown

- State Gov't

- RIH/WIH/Hasbro

- Miriam

- Downtown

- Garris

Greater City Providence Urbanism Blog

http://www.gcpvd.org

[Pseudo_Work]

I have a really hard time imagining where the theoretical Hospital->Brown line would run, and who would take it.

[Lone Ranger]

I think N. Main, Broad St, and the East Side Tunnel need a higher volume, larger light rail system which not only serve those areas, but neighboring communities (Cranston, E. Prov, Etc) as well.

I have a really hard time imagining where the theoretical Hospital->Brown line would run, and who would take it. The real key is to design a system that gets people from the high density residential areas:

- East Side

- West Side

- South Side

- Pawtucket

- Warwick/E. Prov/Cranson

To the high concentration job areas:

- Brown

- State Gov't

- RIH/WIH/Hasbro

- Miriam

- Downtown

- Garris

Greater City Providence Urbanism Blog

http://www.gcpvd.org

[Pseudo_Work]

Don't forget North Providence, among the neighboring communities, as well as PC and the Valley among the high concentration job areas. If I'm not mistaken, improving mass transit to the Valley was a key point of the Sasaki plan to revitalize the old industrial/commercial buildings there.

[Urbaner]

Yes, I agree. I see the tunnel being used for a light rail line that runs all the way to Fall River (connecting to the rail line we should someday have coming up to there from Aquidneck Island).

Connecting the Hospital, the train station, and Brown via the bus tunnel brings up another NIMBY issue however, construction. Unless (and even if) the line goes from the train station up the tunnel and back down the tunnel, then to the Hospital, there will be surface disruption on the East Side. And I think it would be foolish just to spur a train up the tunnel and back. A route to connect those three points should probably run via Brook Street and the Point Street Bridge. That's lots of construction on local streets that NIMBYs would be averse to. Does the Mayor have the political capital to overcome that opposition (which I think would constitute a vocal minority)? Maybe.

[Cotuit]

Frankly, it's a little creepy to me that this project, by being on the wish list, has been deemed "shovel ready" when none of us have seen anything resembling a plan.

[Cotuit]

The big outlier here is the hospital. There are numerous ways to connect Brown and the train station with downtown, obviously. The hospital is completely out of the way, no matter how you cut it.

[mental757]

That idea (allens, dorrance, KP, train station) would fit in very nicely with what I read was the possibility of creating two RIPTA "nodes" under the new 195 overpasses and next to the train station. Looking at the map, I'd favor the west edge of allens, then cross over to the east edge of eddy and dorrance which would link with a "platform" on the far western edge of KP right in front of city hall. The northern branch would then stay on the east side of dorrance as it goes by the skating center and then use a swath of sidewalk/brickwalk (instead of the actual street or sidewalk there) until it crosses Exchange. Then along the east edge of Francis all the way up to station park, where it would curve to end up parallel to Gaspee at the eastern edge of the train station. The end points and KP would each have two tracks, while the rest of the line would be single tracked. Possible double track at a few key "stops" to allow for higher frequency dual direction service. Two spots that come to mind that could be key spots with room for dual tracks is Dynamo House (Eddy @ Dyer) and Dorrance @ Clifford (JWU).

Think about it, the train station node would act as a northerly hub for local buses, the allens ave area for the hospitals and southerly local buses. The street car line links both with KP which would serve as the primary hub for longer distance buses and park-n-rides. KP and the train station are better linked for bus/train connections as well. Creating these nodes will reduce the amount of bus traffic in/out of KP/downtown but increase the overall coverage/connectabilty and actually enhance the overall network/system. This also opens up future expansion of the harbor junction rail line to light commuter rail from the allens ave node and light commuter rail from the train station to Fall river via the train tunnel.

[mental757]

Hey, I just had a thought (I know, thats the burning smell):

Perhaps the 20M is simply the portion of work that PROVIDENCE - the city, is responsible for. Maybe they have to fund the tracks, stops, and the overhead electric lines only. If the operating authority of the street car line is RIPTA or a yet to be created agency, then there might be more funding the STATE needs to get to buy the cars, etc.?

Is RIPTA part of the city or the state???

[Urbaner]

Hey, I just had a thought (I know, thats the burning smell):

Perhaps the 20M is simply the portion of work that PROVIDENCE - the city, is responsible for. Maybe they have to fund the tracks, stops, and the overhead electric lines only. If the operating authority of the street car line is RIPTA or a yet to be created agency, then there might be more funding the STATE needs to get to buy the cars, etc.?

Is RIPTA part of the city or the state???

[Pseudo_Work]

Another way a system may be built and operated is to look at the Hudson-Bergen light-rail line. Granted it's a much larger system, but has been enoumously successful. A private for-profit transportation company built the improvements for New Jersey Transit and has a lease to operate the system. Average fares are only siightly higher than RIPTAs. It's been open since the beginning of this decade and has continually increased ridership due to its near flawless operation and connectivity. Real Estate values along its corridor have escalated at rates higher than other parts of New Jersey nearby.

[Urbaner]

Another possibility is that we're not even talking about installing track. We could be just looking at trackless trolleys a la San Francisco, that only require overhead wires. From what I know, they're cheaper (and obviously easier) to install, and we could probably use a lot of our leftover infrastructure to make them happen.

[Cotuit]

Today on the Providence Business News website there is a poll that asks the question "Should the City of Providence build a streetcar or light rail system?" yes or no.

http://www.pbn.com/

[mental757]

deliberation??? WHAT!!? I'll assume you are joking.

It took about 2.2 milliseconds to hit the 'yes' button!

[Pseudo_Work]

I'm glad to see there's real support for this.

[Cotuit]

deliberation??? WHAT!!? I'll assume you are joking.

[Pseudo_Work]

Only one mention of infrastructure by the President in his press conference tonight, and no mention whatsoever of transit spending. Lets hope the treasury secretary covers that in detail tomorrow.

[mental757]

yes, I'm sorry. I forgot about the drug dealers and the parking crisis. I also think that a street car line could possibly force some folks to give up their freedom to drive everywhere - what was I thinking...

[Frankie811]

The mayors interview on CNN.

This morning he will be on at 7:20 am on Fox network's national morning show Fox and Friends.

[Lone Ranger]

linky-thing

[BossyNova]

Drug dealers hiding behind trolleys? Are you kidding me? This is a concern?

As far as a "trackless system like San Francsico"; I am from San Francisco, and there is no such thing of trackless trolleys. There is the cablecar system which is powered by, guess what, submerged cables. Then there are a couple of electric street cars (New Orleans have the same set up) and yes there are over head wires, but there are also tracks in the street. The only trackless trolley systems would be what we already have with the Gold and Green lines.

I may be the only one who thinks this trolley system expense is really a bad idea. Why would we need to connect the train station to a hospital?! Who do we think is going to use the system? Someone who breaks their leg on the commuter train from Boston? Why would we pour money into a antiquated, frivolous system when our public transportation system is unreliable, and crumbling to the point of embarrassment. There are cuts in service, outdated shelters (if any in some cases), and a riduclous service cut off at 7pm in most cases. Who would want to take the bus with these problems?! Fix the RIPTA system first before anything else!!!!

If a trolley car system must come to Providence, then we need to analize who in deed is going to utilize it. Commuters from the East Side into downtown might, but honestly, probably wouldn't. Brown students? C'mon, are you kidding me? Someone with a medical emergency? Not a chance.

A trolley car ride is something for tourists (trust me, you would have a hard time finding a SF resident standing in line in Union Square waiting for a cable car). So with that in mind, Providence would need to place the tracks down with the mind set of a vistor from Idaho. Connect Federal Hill to Downcity to the State House and then along the canal to the future site of the Dynamo House. This will circulate people around the main points of interest in the downtown area, which needs more support of revenue than Miriam Hospital. If the system takes off, then expand into the East Side, although, I don't know where a trolley system will go...the streets are too narrow and let's face with street parking in this city being one of the biggest issues, I doubt anyone will want to give up a lane for a trolley car.