Race to be green

[Neo]

In the President's speech last night he said the following:

"We know the country that harnesses the power of clean, renewable energy will lead the 21st century. And yet, it is China that has launched the largest effort in history to make their economy energy efficient. We invented solar technology, but we

[Captain Worley]

A123 (an American Li-ion startup) was up for the battery contract on the Volt, but LG was cheaper, more power dense, and had better prodution facilities.

[Neo]

A123 (an American Li-ion startup) was up for the battery contract on the Volt, but LG was cheaper, more power dense, and had better prodution facilities.

You failed to mention that the Korean government paid for a research campus for LG Chem which assisted in the development of these batteries. Korea has superior battery technology because their government realizes how important it is to their economy to assist in research and development of better battery technologies and thus more efficient energies.

This just enhances my point that America needs to pump money into R&D for clean energies that we can in turn export to countries around the world, coal is not going to cut it. Imagine how much of a boost it would be to our economy if the government funded solar and wind technologies to the point where other countries were begging to buy our more efficient solar panels or wind turbines? It will only happen if our government follows the path that Korea's government has taken.

Yes, we would get there eventually on our own, but the only thing that matters is who got there first as that gives fuel to the fire. Now that GM will be purchasing batteries from Korea, that only pumps more money into their R&D for battery technology.

[Captain Worley]

Imagine how much of a boost it would be to our economy if the government funded solar and wind technologies to the point where other countries were begging to buy our more efficient solar panels or wind turbines?

[Neo]

I agree, but I feel solar and wind are the wrong emphasis. We really need to emphasize battery tech, because wind and solar will depend on storage to make them viable.

I can't argue with that, battery technology is certainly lacking and is much needed for technologies like solar and wind. It is disheartening to see how battery technology is so far behind the pace of improvements of other technologies. There have been great strides in the last couple of years though, but we certainly have a long way to go.

I don't fully agree with your priority of PV solar dead last, but for the most part I agree with the rest of your priority list. PV solar panels have a lifespan of 25-50 years and ~95% of the panels are recyclable, not to mention the 25-50 years that you get your power from the sun instead of from coal. Yes, PV solar panels have a pretty intensive manufacturing process, the benefits greatly outweigh anything bad about them when compared to something like coal.

And to think, that is the PV technology we have TODAY, imagine what could be done to cleanly manufacturer the panels with a little time and research. This is why we need to invest. I would love to manufacturers in the US to be able to sell solar panels to other countries rather than us buying from them. I'm not about to let our great country hand over this opportunity to a country like China on a silver platter.

[Captain Worley]

I've got different numbers for PV that would explain my bias against them. 20% efficiency (of what sunlight reaches them, about 300 W/m^2), 15 year life expectancy with a huge drop in efficiency after 5 years.

But, yeah, we need to try and improve on that. I just feel there's too much against it and our limited money could be better spent elsewhere. I'm of the same mind about hydrogen fuel cells.

Until we master the storage media, none of it will be terribly reliable.

[Neo]

I've got different numbers for PV that would explain my bias against them. 20% efficiency (of what sunlight reaches them, about 300 W/m^2), 15 year life expectancy with a huge drop in efficiency after 5 years.

40%+ efficiency has been demonstrated, but you are correct in what we could purchase today to put on our roof is only ~22% efficient at best. I'm not sure where you're getting your life expectancy numbers from though.

Sunpower, a manufacturer of PV solar panels, warrants their panels to not drop below 90% output within 12 years and to not drop below 80% within 25 years. I wouldn't call 10% a "huge drop in efficiency." Yes, we have a long way to go, which reiterates my point that we should invest to get the lifespan and efficiency of these panels up. We know it is possible:

Check out a new technology which would pave the way for 80% efficiency in solar panels: https://inlportal.inl.gov/portal/server.pt?...story=DA_101047

[Captain Worley]

I saw that a year or so ago. Haven't heard much more about it. That could be good or bad.

My numbers are from a radiative heat transfer class I took a while back, but I heard a PV proponent quoting roughly the same thing on a local radio show a month or so back. The significant drop was about 50%. I have a friend that works at NASA, I think that's about what they're getting.

I'm really surprised that I haven't seen passive solar pushed very aggressively. I really thought that was gonna be big in the 70s, then, poof, it dropped off the radar.

I saw a cool house that used passive solar and wide porches o regulate inside temps. IIRC, it was in FL or GA and because of the design used very little heat or AC. Neat concept, but I bet a lot of HOAs would frown on tin roofs....

[Captain Worley]

I thought this wwas the case but couldn't find it on the web. According to the latest issue of Moteor Trend, GM is building a factory for production of Volt batteries. It's supposed to be up and runing in 2010.

[Neo]

I thought this wwas the case but couldn't find it on the web. According to the latest issue of Moteor Trend, GM is building a factory for production of Volt batteries. It's supposed to be up and runing in 2010.

I believe this is just an assembly plant for the batteries. The actual batteries will be made in Korea.

[Neo]

I'm all for clean air, but CO2 is not a pollutant. I can't believe people consider it that.

The EPA has now officially declared the CO2 is harmful. It is now under review by the Office of Management and Budget, and if approved, will make its way into the Clean Air Act where it would be regulated.