Metropolitan, Midtown Redevelopment

[DigitalSky]

Yeah, the second one. I have mentioned it a few times before, but I can't believe the Wendy's refused to be incorporated into the project in any way other than a replacement of their suburban style building. So that is what they got. So now we have a suburban Wendy's and a parking deck with no retail at the street.

hmm yeah that sucks. Boycott Wendy's? LOL. Street level retail would have been significant.

[dubone]

You joke, but I am making a concerted effort to avoid all of these fast food joints that seem firm on keeping Elizabeth, Cherry, and Midtown from being urban in design. I'm sure they don't notice much, but if more people avoided them because of bad design, they'd start to play along with the infill developers.

[DigitalSky]

You joke, but I am making a concerted effort to avoid all of these fast food joints that seem firm on keeping Elizabeth, Cherry, and Midtown from being urban in design. I'm sure they don't notice much, but if more people avoided them because of bad design, they'd start to play along with the infill developers.

No, you're right and I agree with you and yeah the joke was lame becuase in all seriousness it is places like that Wendy's that inhibit urban growth and design.

[jednc]

You joke, but I am making a concerted effort to avoid all of these fast food joints that seem firm on keeping Elizabeth, Cherry, and Midtown from being urban in design. I'm sure they don't notice much, but if more people avoided them because of bad design, they'd start to play along with the infill developers.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I completely agree that it would have been much better for these establishments to have made an effort for an urban design of their restaurants....

But do you really think that a decrease in sales will send the message that people don't like their building design? The people who are at those locations are (I seriously doubt) not equiped to do that sort of analysis of their customer base. The people at the corp. office will probably not put two and two together...

[dubone]

I said in my post that they wouldn't notice. I'm trying to avoid eating food for many reasons. But part of what made the fast food so powerful and stubborn in the negotiations is that they are so profitable in this area and don't want to disrupt what has made them successful. If people instead frequented the restaurants that went with an urban design the fast food places wouldn't be so stubbornly set on staying the same. I don't realistically think that will happen. I'll still do my part.

[monsoon]

I.... I'll still do my part.

An avalanche always starts with a few pebbles falling.

[krazeeboi]

Is anyone besides me disappointed with how this development is taking shape thus far?

[ScottCLT]

Is anyone besides me disappointed with how this development is taking shape thus far?

I can't say that I'm impressed considering that so far, it's basically only a 5-story tall elevator shaft in the middle of a giant mud puddle. It's also hard for me to be disappointed considering what had to be done before anything could start. A lot of dirt had to be moved. And besides, seeing a 5-story elevator shaft is at least beginning to give the illusion that a high-rise will eventually be there. At least I think it's the elevator shaft.

[dubone]

Last new year (the end of 05), when we got the renderings, there was some discussion about this. King's Drive will not be a very good urban street through this project. I think that is now showing up in reality. I know they had some trouble getting the numbers to work on this project, so I'm sure they were not focusing on trying to create a pedestrian environment.

I reread my comments from then and I still feel strongly that this project would have been greatly improved if they could have put the Wendy's in the deck facing Independence and Kings (pedestrian interest), kept the big boxes unstacked with frontage directly onto Kings for one, and Independence for the other. The Wendy's almost forced them to waste 1/4 of the land on suburban surface lots, causing the high costs of stacking the big box stores. I think in the end, this first phase will just be average in design. Most on here will dislike it, but most regular people will think it is fine. No one will think it looks great. The phase II will look the same along Kings, but look far better on Metropolitan Ave (the new internal gridded street) and the greenway.

[graydog]

I'm with dubone on this. What they're doing to Kings Dr. is a shame.

[dubone]

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=202318

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Planni...ns/2005-060.htm

For a refresher, here were there renderings from the rezoning.

[krazeeboi]

I reread my comments from then and I still feel strongly that this project would have been greatly improved if they could have put the Wendy's in the deck facing Independence and Kings (pedestrian interest), kept the big boxes unstacked with frontage directly onto Kings for one, and Independence for the other. The Wendy's almost forced them to waste 1/4 of the land on suburban surface lots, causing the high costs of stacking the big box stores.

I patronized that Wendy's a few hours ago (I know, bad Krazeeboi! ), and being that the parking garage almost swallows it and it's hard to see from a few angles because of its location in proximity to the garage, I'm trying to see how a stand-alone structure is even beneficial for them. I would think they would get greater visibility from a ground-floor location in the parking garage.

I think in the end, this first phase will just be average in design. Most on here will dislike it, but most regular people will think it is fine.

LOL @ "regular people." Us UP'ers are special.

[Miesian Corners]

Construction update...

[monsoon]

In looking at this site plan a few things come to mind.

• The first will be the effect of turning Independence Blvd back into a highway. When they closed the road in the
  1980s the idea was to make it more of a neighborhood street. Now that the link between independence and what is
  now called Stonewall is restored, I can see the traffic rising back up there quite dramatically. The loss of traffic is
  what killed midtown in the first place so this is probably a good thing for the retail there. Maybe not so good for
  pedestrian activity.
  
• At least 50% of the surface area is devoted to the automobile despite the fact there is a parking deck there.
  
• This project, at least from the air, looks the same as about a dozen similar projects proposed or under construction
  around the perimeter of Charlotte. The only difference are the two towers on the property.
  
• I think the city should have demanded more out of Pappas as this project, like the others he has produced, does
  not integrate with the surrounding environment. It creates long vast areas along King's Drive that are as people
  unfriendly as the shopping mall that it replaces.
  

[dubone]

I agree with you on most of your points, and they are valid criticisms.

The business model for Pappas on this site has been to build a complex with the basic elements included in suburban centers as those meet the specifications for retailers. This way, we get retailers that serve the middle class that typically only locate in the suburbs, but are wholly absent from the central part of the city.

In the discussions of bringing retailers downtown, the underlying problems come that the larger retailers with resources to succeed refuse to compromise on their parking requirements.

All this project is is a denser Birkdale Village that happens to actually be near downtown. Many of the criticisms of BV will be true here, too, but likewise the positives. However, there are some additional positives, like having the shopping street be connected to the existing street network like a grid, being a part of the greenway system, being near planned transit corridors. With the bad rep that Cherry has, I commend Pappas for gridding his street into the main street of Cherry, Baxter.

Those don't erase the sins of giving in to Wendy's, ignoring the King's Drive facade, and having spartan architecture, though.

Lastly, even though most of it is auto-oriented, a 3 mile auto trip is far superior to the 10 mile auto trip necessary to go to similar stores. There will also be lots of people who can and will walk, bike, or transit to these stores because they can.

To me, this has never been a perfect project, but rather a compromised project in a world that seems to demand compromises.

[Charlotte_native]

[*]At least 50% of the surface area is devoted to the automobile despite the fact there is a parking deck there.

[*]This project, at least from the air, looks the same as about a dozen similar projects proposed or under construction

Not surprised it looks like that since this is, of course, one of the larger suburban developers we have. I guess they couldn't switch gears when switching environments.

[monsoon]

The part about Independence being reopened after 20 years will be fascinating to see. That part is probably the best thing about this project as it will correct some of the mistakes made when they built the John Belk Freeway. There are some opportunities there to make an avenue of pedestrian friendly development all the way to downtown and out to CPCC if the city would put in a good plan and make people follow it. The could even use this as the transit route for a LRT to the East.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Thanks for posting those renderings, dubone!

There are a couple of questions that I have and if anyone knows the answer, please inform me.

1) All the renderings I've seen of this project show the current Baxter St. bridge over the creek being "straightened out" and hitting Kenilworth perpendicular, as opposed to its current angle. Its current configuration makes for an unnecessarily sharp turn onto Baxter from inbound Kenilworth and really clogs up traffic at that spot. I've always thought the bridge could be re-worked so that it moved traffic more efficiently here. And go on if you must about the need for it to be pedestrian-friendly, but the reality is that this intersection already moves a ton of cars through it and that will only become more the case once this project is finished. So, the question is: does the Baxter bridge stay or will it get changed? I don't see any work being done on it.

2) What the hell is with that jut-out on Kenilworth (or maybe it's still Stonewall at that point) that forces traffic to do a sharp jog to avoid hitting the curb!? To clarify, picture yourself driving down Stonewall towards Baxter. After you've rounded the curve to the right (just after the ramp from John Belk dumps in) there's this section of that grassy area that bows out and the street does a sharp curve around it. I've never understood why it's there. It's dangerous...and it makes no sense. It just seems to me that it could be "shaved off" in order to make that curve less sharp. I was hoping that when they did the street improvements here that it would go away. No....it's still there!

While I'm admittedly looking forward to a Home Depot and Target store being so close to me, I can't help but feel that they...along with the rest of the Pappas project at Metropolitan, are going to create an incredible traffic nightmare.

Edited January 16, 2007 by PlazaMidwoodGuy

[Mobuchu]

1. Yes, a new bridge will go in and Baxter will be realligned.

2. If we are thinking of the same spot, they have already done the curbs and sidewalks through here, but have not moved the lane markings. I'm hoping once they do, that S curve through there will be softened. Right now if you are in the right lane, it looses about a foot of width because the curb sticks out. Its kinda like driving down S. Tryon at the Camden intersection, dangerous...

[monsoon]

..... This way, we get retailers that serve the middle class that typically only locate in the suburbs, but are wholly absent from the central part of the city.

In the discussions of bringing retailers downtown, the underlying problems come that the larger retailers with resources to succeed refuse to compromise on their parking requirements......

Not necessarily so as can be seen by this urban Target.

This is a Target in downtown Minneapolis. Seems to me the city should have pushed for something like this in the center city rather than using tax money for a strip mall next to downtown.

[dubone]

If they'd have just figured out how to get rid of the fecking Wendy's Target and Expo could have been flat to the ground and the structural savings could have gone to better architecture and streetscape. On Baxter bridge, it will be moved to where the bank branch used to be when federal funds are available. The condo tower goes over the Exxon, and that roundabout is where their purple sales center is. It won't really be Baxter then as it won't have any alignment to it.

[Miesian Corners]

While I won't defend the design of the Pappas project, the Target store in downtown MPLS is attached to the Target Corp HQ. There's not another Target on the globe like that one. Nice store, though. It has a heated parking garage.

[monsoon]

... There's not another Target on the globe like that one. ....

That is because Urban Target stores tend to be different. The Urban Lowes being built in South End is also one of a kind. No doubt they won't be the last. Not sure why that is relevant to what I said.

[monsoon]

Urban Home Depot in Chicago. For the record, they are based in suburban Atlanta.

[Miesian Corners]

That is because Urban Target stores tend to be different. The Urban Lowes being built in South End is also one of a kind. No doubt they won't be the last. Not sure why that is relevant to what I said.

I'm not sure what you mean. The relevance was that Target did (in the words of Martha Stewart) a "good thing" for their corporate hometown. I'm not sure they'd be willing to spend the money on a store such as the one at the base of their headquarters as a store in midtown Charlotte.