Metropolitan, Midtown Redevelopment

[appatone]

Just for interest sake I thought I would post some links to the West Hollywood Gateway project. Here architects combined Target, BestBuy and, other small retailers around a courtyard that embraced pedestrian connectivity to the existing bordering streets. Combine that with the decked parking which is free for those visiting the stores. All of this on one city block. There are plenty of pictures at these sites. I was hoping for something more along this vein then what we got.

Developer's Site on the project

Architect's site on the project

www.westhollywoodgateway.com

Edited January 20, 2007 by appatone

[dubone]

I like a lot of elements of the design, especially the greenway facade, which I agree will be the most visible, as it will be visible from highly traveled Kenilworth, and some parts Belk. I also think it is perfectly reasonable that they turned inward. With all of the general population raving about Philips Place and Birkdale, it makes sense that he would try to create an urban version. Surface parking are instead parking decks, and instead of emptying to a single overrun corridor like Fairview or 73, it has connectivity to Baxter, Kings, Kenilworth, Belk, Independence and Stonewall.

The architecture displayed in the southern half of this project is far superior to the Target part, which was a major missed opportunity (especially after seeing the cool architecture of the West Hollywood Gateway). I've said it all along, but the King's facade is just wasted. I would far rather have the walkable and memorable internal street. But still, he could have done something simple along King's, like some small retail spots at the bottom of the deck with subsidized rents for small local businesses or something. I feel like he should have especially sought to do this since the city covered the costs of the deck. However, because the street he does focus his retail on is gridded in, then I don't find it all too bad, as it is just like in any city where a street might be the workhorse street for most of the cars and not pedestrian oriented, but a block over is where everything is for pedestrians.

I can't explain the high costs for the residential units. However, if those values stick, then hopefully that will encourage more redevelopment on other underutilized parcels on Kings.

[Seabreeze]

just drove by the site, steel is now going up the concrete structure they have been working on.

[DigitalSky]

Just for interest sake I thought I would post some links to the West Hollywood Gateway project. Here architects combined Target, BestBuy and, other small retailers around a courtyard that embraced pedestrian connectivity to the existing bordering streets. Combine that with the decked parking which is free for those visiting the stores. All of this on one city block. There are plenty of pictures at these sites. I was hoping for something more along this vein then what we got.

Developer's Site on the project

Architect's site on the project

www.westhollywoodgateway.com

Wow I really like the look of the Target at west hollywood gateway.. Dubone is right, it is a missed opportunity!

[rockhilljames]

I've been to the West Hollywood Gateway...it didn't really seem that different from any other "urban shopping park" to be honest. It was (as most things tend to be in LA) very auto-oriented. Unlike some on this forum I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, I'm just saying it didn't seem to me to be anything special.

[ScottCLT]

Does anyone know how definite Best Buy, Marshall's, and Staple's are to this development? I haven't heard mention of them in a long time. I would be so excitied to hear of a Best Buy I didn't have to drive 20 minutes to get to.

[monsoon]

Does anyone know how definite Best Buy, Marshall's, and Staple's are to this development? I haven't heard mention of them in a long time. I would be so excitied to hear of a Best Buy I didn't have to drive 20 minutes to get to.

It is my guess that barring any announcements, there is nothing definite. This development is essentially a strip mall built on a former failed mall site. Retail has been dying there for close to 30 years and I don't see anything about this project, that might change that. They had an opportunity to build something that might have integrated well with the neighborhood, but instead the design is self contained and surrounded by vast parking lots and a couple of big box retail places. I predict the Target and Home Depot will do OK but the rest, who knows.

I feel sorry for the people who spent more than $400 sq/ft for a condo based on just pretty renderings. While it has some nice views of downtown, I can't imagine that day to day living in a place that is totally disconnected from everything else, including being surrounded by highways, is going to be that nice of a place to live. (unless hotel living is something you like)

[dubone]

Best Buy, Marshalls and Staples have been consistently on showing up on project materials, and if memory serves, an insider confirmed they will be there at the grand opening last year.

I'm glad to have these retailers in our dense, multistory, mixed-use, gridded, connected, walkable strip mall. Not that I shop often at these retailers, but I do shop there once a season, and will be so happy to get to cut my drive by 90%.

It maybe that a lack of announcements means they still haven't signed leases. But even if these retailers don't end up in the project, other popular large retailers will, since there are proximity benefits for being near Target.

Is it worth $400 per square foot? I doubt it. But I don't agree with the walkability argument. This is probably the most walkable project of any, because it is actually attached to the greenway, so you can walk under a couple of thoroughfares. Also, there will be crosswalks, which I'm sure Pappas can provide instructional videos on upon request. This project is only a mile from Tryon. That is about a 20 minute walk, which I could see many people doing to save on auto expenses. But it is only a five minute walk to each hospital, which might make it very attractive to the thousands of employees in those institutions.

If streets, greenways, and freeway interchanges, and major bus routes don't count for being 'connected' to every where else, then I'm not sure that word has much meaning.

[dubone]

Ok, then my point stands . Greenway with destinations on the other end are great for connectivity, as they allow for a more enjoyable walking or biking trip.

[Charlotte_native]

This development is essentially a strip mall built on a former failed mall site. Retail has been dying there for close to 30 years and I don't see anything about this project, that might change that.

I agree that this project location had quite a bit more potential that what we are getting, but I don't think comparing the dying retail of the self-enclosed and bland box that was Midtown Square necessarily means Metropolitan will be the same. This project has a few things that differentiate it from the dying retail in that area, mainly the restaurants, cafes, and greenway and residents. Before you had lots of parking lots, a couple shoe stores, the DMV office, a nasty food-court, and a handful of shops that carried last-years clothing. Again, this isn't my kind of development or shopping that is coming, but it is desirable to a lot of people and will likely be very successful to that segment. New shops that now are only 20 minutes away, some dining, some outdoor seating, greenway that connects to center city and Freedom Park (though I honestly doubt anyone will walk much on it). Far different than Midtown Mall. There are quite a few people out there who are really excited about this place -- just not most of us.

[monsoon]

^You must not remember it in its previous incarnations as CharlotteTown Mall, and Outlet Square. The former had all of the upscale retail in Charlotte that one could find, the latter was fairly unique in what it offered. Also the location had the benefit of a full sized Harris Teeter. None could survive. What you described as midtown square was in fact the mall in its dying throes.

[eastsider]

^Those were in a time when all the population and retail was moving to the suburbs. Now there is a whole new population base moving to the area with a much higher average income. This center will do fine.

[bork]

Best Buy, Marshalls and Staples have been consistently on showing up on project materials, and if memory serves, an insider confirmed they will be there at the grand opening last year.

I'm glad to have these retailers in our dense, multistory, mixed-use, gridded, connected, walkable strip mall. Not that I shop often at these retailers, but I do shop there once a season, and will be so happy to get to cut my drive by 90%.

It maybe that a lack of announcements means they still haven't signed leases. But even if these retailers don't end up in the project, other popular large retailers will, since there are proximity benefits for being near Target.

Is it worth $400 per square foot? I doubt it. But I don't agree with the walkability argument. This is probably the most walkable project of any, because it is actually attached to the greenway, so you can walk under a couple of thoroughfares. Also, there will be crosswalks, which I'm sure Pappas can provide instructional videos on upon request. This project is only a mile from Tryon. That is about a 20 minute walk, which I could see many people doing to save on auto expenses. But it is only a five minute walk to each hospital, which might make it very attractive to the thousands of employees in those institutions.

If streets, greenways, and freeway interchanges, and major bus routes don't count for being 'connected' to every where else, then I'm not sure that word has much meaning.

I think the majority of people will drive to this spot -- but there will be at least the ability to walk along a nice greenway to get there. Running on the greenway stretch between Morehead and East Blvd/Freedom Park, I've seen tons of people with Starbucks cups in hand (a good mile away from the greenway) - so it's possible.

[DigitalSky]

^Those were in a time when all the population and retail was moving to the suburbs. Now there is a whole new population base moving to the area with a much higher average income. This center will do fine.

That is true, the same could have been said about uptown years ago when Charlottetown/OutletSquare/Midtown existed. But now that uptown's changed, I think that the whole area has experienced change and as you said the new population and higher income will definitely support this project. Plus a lot of people here say that it'll be so much better to go here rather than drive out 20-30 minutes to the suburbs.

[monsoon]

^Those were in a time when all the population and retail was moving to the suburbs. Now there is a whole new population base moving to the area with a much higher average income. This center will do fine.

What population? There are far less people living in that area now than there was 30 years ago. I just don't think a greenway is going to support much retail. I do agree however, unfortunately that a strip mall format would probably work better than an enclosed mall.

If this same development was going up on I-485, everybody on this forum would be dismissing it as more sprawl.

[GamecockEngineer]

What population? There are far less people living in that area now than there was 30 years ago. I just don't think a greenway is going to support much retail. I do agree however, unfortunately that a strip mall format would probably work better than an enclosed mall.

If this same development was going up on I-485, everybody on this forum would be dismissing it as more sprawl.

But it's in the city and I'm not going to have to drive 20-30 minutes to go to Target anymore (not that I go often, but it's still a pain). While it's more auto oriented than I would like, I think it could go a long way in further developing a "mass" of perm. residence Uptown.

[charlotte_uncc]

If this same development was going up on I-485, everybody on this forum would be dismissing it as more sprawl.

that's because it would be on 485, not a mile from the center city. if you build a skyscraper out in waxhaw, it would still be a form of sprawl. this project is in the city center.

[cinco]

^ there is no doubt that the big box stores that are going here - won't be successful. IMO, they will be very successful... and the other stores should benefit from all the traffic. i do have lots of problems with this development, but a dead zone for retail is not one of them. i feel the design and site plan missed an opportunity to better integrate the surrounding areas. that is a little disappointing and i would never want to live @ this project.... however, i can already see the place teeming with activity on nice nights... people walking, cafes and restaurants, etc.

[rockhilljames]

The other thing I like about this is that rather than having folks in Dilworth, Elizabeth, etc, driving out to Independence or Pineville and spending the day, those folks will now reorient themselves to the center city. The traffic going to here will also benefit uptown restaurants and attractions.

[dubone]

Earlier I was referring to the people living the project not being somehow boxed in by streets. I do think that the retail will mostly be drivers, but will be cannabalization of their current customer base, but with each driving considerably less distance. This big box retailer will certainly be for the area probably defined by a 4 mile radius of downtown. Certainly, the lower prices of Target, Best Buy, Marshalls won't be for everyone in that radius, but will appeal to both the working poor, and the young middle class demographics.

I might agree with the 'strip mall' categorization with the standard definition, which now that I've looked it up, actually refers to any retail with shared parking. But the general use of that phrase includes the design aspects as they are typically set up in the suburbs, surface parking in the front, with the buildings in the back of the lot, and all single story, sprawling to a degree where it would be impractical to walk between the stores for trip sharing. So the negative connotations of the term 'strip mall' aren't in the official definition, but they are in the common usage of the term. This project meets the denotation of the term, but not the connotation. As a result, the term is unhelpful in describing the place.

For example, I'll agree that it is a strip mall, but one that does not have 90% of the bad design elements typical of a strip mall. It does have 10%, with its bland architecture and a block face with the only use being a parking use. However, the project is redeemed for most urbanists in that it is a vertical mixture of employment, retail and residential uses, does not have surface parking (only exception being the Wendy's idiots), has gridded connections, and an urban context.

This project does not come close to utopian ideal, but I think it meets the basic planning goals of reducing VMT, increasing pedestrian destinations, creating practical infill development to utilize existing infrastructure, and providing retail to people living in the central zone of the city.

[cooperdawg]

Stores like Home Depot and Target are a neccessity for much of the population and anyone within a five mile radius of Uptown, a sizeable portion of the popluation no doubt, will use these stores. I think the proposed project does a good job of providing retailers in high demand in an area they are much needed to cut down on commute time to such retailers in the far off suburbs. I think they've done as best they could to cater to making the space as pedestrian friendly as possible with the outdoor restaurants, greenway frontage, etc...but you need a lot of parking for these stores for one reason, mass purchases. Do you expect to see people on the Greenway carrying lumber to their residence a half-mile away? How much stuff do you usually buy when you go to a Target? I don't know about you, but I'm not carrying that load anywhere. I expect this site to be highly successful, but agreed, I wouldn't pay what they're asking to to live there.

I know everyone has lofty visions and goals for any land within a five mile radius of Uptown, but as we densify, certain commodities in the suburbs will become high in demand as far as having these commodities in proximity of their residence as we infill Charlotte with a residential population we're trying to steal back from the suburbs.

Edited January 30, 2007 by cooperdawg

[hinsp0]

I spend all of my time in the Elizabeth area when I'm in Charlotte. I think that this development is positive, if for no other reason, because, as others have mentioned here before, I no longer have to drive 20 or 30 minutes to get to a Best Buy or Target.

Additionally, the Midtown redevelopment is an improvement on the Midtown Square site that sat vacant there for many years. And, a little greenery straddling the brown trickle of water that is Sugar Creek is better than the pavement that formerly graced the adjacent areas.

Obviously, the Midtown redevelopment isn't perfect, but IMO it's a step in the right direction for this area of Charlotte.

[NCgfx]

I WILL be walking to this center. I walk 2 miles, from the 7th/Ridgeway area to Tryon every day. A friend of mine lives near Freedom Park and walks to 7th and Tryon most days, we both have cars. It seems to me that if only a handful of people are willing to walk to this area it will be better than the amount of people that walk there today.

I actually work at Rock Bottom at 7th and Tryon. You can't imagine the amount of visitors that ask about a Target or some other equivalent general merchandise store. I have to tell them that it is going to be about a $25 cab fare to the nearest Target. The fact that this will be available for about a $5 cab fare, or about a 20 min. walk will I think greatly enhance outsiders view of the Charlotte Urban core. Skeptics will attack my argument, saying that no visitors will be willing to walk that far. All one would have to do is observe a Saturday afternoon Uptown. People are walking like crazy, that is the one of the best things you can do to catch the Charlotte bug that so many visitors seem to get. I would walk 10 miles on one of the famous Carolina blue, slight breeze, spring/fall days.

[Mobuchu]

And this puts a destination on the greenway, as currently there is none other then parks. Coffee, an ice cream, lunch, dinner, etc. I'll be riding my bike there since I already ride the greenway to get to uptown, and I'm sure others will as well.

[Justadude]

The fact that this will be available for about a $5 cab fare, or about a 20 min. walk will I think greatly enhance outsiders view of the Charlotte Urban core.

To me, this is the key to the success of the development. I honestly don't see very many people walking from Tryon to Midtown, for the simple reason that driving is much easier and more convenient (unless they start gouging with parking fees). The greenway will add some walkers/bikers, but again I don't see a large percentage of the center's business coming from that demographic (except on pleasant weekends). So really, the thought of this ever being a pedestrian-dependent project is pretty far-fetched.

However... the redeeming quality is that anyone visiting or working in uptown will have a realistic retail destination nearby. From a tourism standpoint alone, this is critical. It looks really bad for the city when you have to send people out to the suburbs to find a pack of white socks or a cheap swimsuit. This project will alleviate a bit of that negative vibe, and provide a "stop on the way home" option for uptown workers who live in the south-central (wealthy) part of town.