Metropolitan, Midtown Redevelopment

[MZT]

Kennethlin's post validates what I've always felt in my gut. The resale market is the "real" market. Yeah some pre-construction buyers made out great 5 years ago. But now the developers don't want to leave that profit on the table anymore, and everything is priced into the first sale.

As long as you can buy something with payments close to the rental value, at least you can hold it as a back-up plan. This is part of the reason I think parts of central Charlotte have over-appreciated. (See my Wilmore posts) because you can't possibly rent those renovations and break even. The flippers have been taking riskier bets than I would, the last few years.

Edited April 3, 2007 by MZT

[kennethlin]

Oh, and another note...don't listen to all the people that've told you they just made $100-400k on their condo investment when it's not even finished! That is the biggest bolonga I've ever heard in my life. It's amazing that all of a sudden, just because a developer sold you their condo 2 years ago at pre-market prices, and now 2 years later, he's asking for $100+ more per square feet means you've just banked $200k and to hear that from so-called savvy real estate investors just makes me laugh.

What people don't realize is that yea, sure you can go ahead and take the equity out of the home, but in order to do so, you need to clear 2 processes. 1) get a solid appraiser that is QUALIFIED and knows what he's talking about, and 2) find a lender that will facilitate the deal. Don't expect to come out of this without having to pay closing costs either, and if your unit is high priced, expect to pay 5 figures! Then, let's say you took that money out, what do you do with it? Invest it in other projects, blow it by buying high priced vehicles and vacations, etc? Chances are, 95% of the people I talk to (yes, I do finance) blow that money away like nothing else, and when all is said and done, what did he/she accomplish? Absolutely nothing, and worse, that person's stuck paying the mortgage interest and principal. Then, you'd have to worry about being able to sell at the originally appraised price? What if you can't, then you are in serious trouble.

Just like what MZT said, prices of real estate is based on the REAL prices and the demand of the city. This is all about supply and demand, and for condo owners, I'd be quite wary in knowing that in about 2 years, you're facing roughly triple the amount of condos available to ready buyers and renters. That's when things are really going to get interesting, as I will be waiting to pick up high-end condo units for less than originally advertised. Yes, it's a gamble to wait, but patience is key.

The funny thing is I met a real estate agent for 20 years in a highly reknowned agency tell me that he invested 2 units at the Vue. Since he put the down payment on his units a year ago, he's doubled his money. Really? When I sat down and gave him my speil, his jaw dropped like he was just made a fool. I told him to take out his contract and read it very carefully. Apparently, he didn't see that you couldn't resale at the Vue unless 1 year after you owned it. At the price he paid vs. sq. footage, there is no way he'd be able to rent his unit at $2000/mo. and with rising interest investor rates and tension over subprime lending, which also affects the minimum down payment percent these days, his profit margin has just quickly diminished. Couple that with trying to sell within the first year, you're facing oridinary income tax gains, and that can be 40% if you are in a high tax bracket. Then, he paid $395/sq. ft for his condo, and now the Vue is commanding $500/sq. ft? Honestly, the true value and final sales price are all undisclosed until you have closed on your units. It's amazing how so many so-called investors get conned when they see that a unit with the same floor plan that they have has just sold for $100/ sq. ft more, when they later find out that the deal was filled with concessions, breakpoints, closing costs entirely covered, and a renegotiated price.

Point is again, buy, hold and sell later. If that means you having to live in your unit to make ends meet, then do so. Otherwise, forfeit your unit and downpayment so you won't have to see the misery that many of the people I know and associate with are facing.

[habarr]

I have until mid-2008 to see what the market does. There is really no point in making any "decisions" at this time unless I move out of my current place.

Materials will continue to get more expensive, so just building these places will have to cost more in the future. Not to mention the land.

The frustrating part is that I decided to finally splurge and buy the best place Charlotte has to offer... only to feel like I'm making a mistake a year before it's even built.

I also have a friend at the same condo high rise. And I agree about the parking.

The gate is a pain! But once you are in and parked, the roof top and the view is very cool! We cook out up there on occasion. It's sweet!

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. That is a very scary experience! That is my worst nightmare.

I think the Met will have plenty of parking based on the retail. It's just a matter of how far the walk is from the parking decks to the condos.

I will ask some questions about that. I guess buying a house in Plaza Midwood, SouthPark or Cotswold is a safer "investment" in this over-built condo environment, huh?

Right now I live in a 1925 duplex in Dilworth. I love the ability to walk to places and the 2 mile commute to downtown. So maybe I will just stay here longer.

Economically, I can afford to live there (or I would not have bought it). But if it's not going to go up in value, I would rather be somewhere that I know is appreciating.

Even if I have to eat the 5% down payment. I think Charlotte has some awesome opportunity for increasing in value over the next 5 years.

So I would rather enjoy that appreciation than live in the lap of luxury without appreciation. That's me...

My real estate agent assures me that when completed, it will be "the place to be".

[monsoon]

^Since you asked, I will offer my opinion.

For the record, I have lived in this county since the 1970s and have have seen what can happen.

It would seem to me that when it comes to residential living, certain trends come and go on a national level, and Charlotte usually ends up adopting the trend somewhat on a delayed basis. Right now there are several going on that are taking place in this city but what we are talking about here is the really hot trend for people to buy a condo near the center of a city which was previously dead. The two reasons that people give for paying really relatively high prices for these places, when there isn't any shortage of housing are, investment and looking for the urban experience. Every Southern city is going through this so what we see here is not an exception except for maybe the magnitude of the money being poured into these projects.

This trend has been playing out now in Charlotte for about 10 years, but it has reached a frenzied pace over the last 3-4 years. In many cities, these places are now starting to lose value because the trend is now in the downside. I think Charlotte is still a couple of years away from this happening and everything new is still at top dollar. On what I said above about the two reasons, investment and urban living, what happens when 1. these investors want their payout, and 2. those looking for urban living find out they want a bigger place? I don't see any reason why prices for condos, especially small ones, are not going to decline as they have in other cities that have gone through the condo trend.

I have seen other trends in this city where people entered lotteries to purchase a new home from a builder and now years later, these places are crime ridden neighborhoods that people won't go into at night. I do think that buying in some of these projects is a roll of the dice if you are worried about resale value in the short term basis (less than 10 years).

Aside from that I simply don't get this particular development (MET) given where it is located and the prices being charged. Anybody that buys into the Met is going to be competing against every developer that is building condos for the next few years, in downtown, and from what I have seen the Met does not offer anything close to an urban experience when compared to a skyscraper in downtown.

[atlrvr]

When all of this shakes out, two things rule the day.....location and quality. Is Met Midtown the best location in the city, I would say probably not. It's certainly not bad, but until Kings Dr. is overhauled, I find the location awkward. I can't speak to the quality as I haven't shopped it and asked what I consider the key questions to be. My gut feeling is that it will be above average in terms of materials and construction.

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but looking at midtown condos, I think that Grubb's new high-rise will rule the day. It's got the Whole Foods, amazing skyline views, and will be destinctive in that part of town. I think quality will be similar to Met Midtown.

Like everyone else has said though, if you plan to live there for a while (at least 2-3 years) I see no concern in depreciation. To chase "the next hot thing" around town trying to find the place that will appreciate the most is going to result in a lot of uselessly wasted money and time. In a growing city like Charlotte, there will always be a newer better place, but how many times do you want to walk away from 5% and how long do you want to wait to get in the game. My feeling is, if you bought your dream place, then enjoy it. Life will be lots less stressful, and I'm certain that you aren't alone if finding Met Midtown the ideal place to live.

[monsoon]

When all of this shakes out, two things rule the day.....location and quality. ....

Indeed. If you sum up my log post above yours, then it boils down to what the current home buying public thinks is desirable location and what is considered high quality. These have certainly changed over my time here in this county and the evidence is there that it has continued to shift in Charlotte over the last 70-80 years.

If you want a truly safe investment that will always be in vogue in Charlotte, then a single family home in SE Charlotte is the ticket. (Specifically areas 4 & 5 beyond and around Charlotte 4.)

[Justadude]

Like everyone else has said though, if you plan to live there for a while (at least 2-3 years) I see no concern in depreciation. To chase "the next hot thing" around town trying to find the place that will appreciate the most is going to result in a lot of uselessly wasted money and time.

Amen to that. If a home is worth spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on, it ought to be worth living in for more than a couple of years. Otherwise you're just playing craps with the economy.

Maybe if you stay in it for 5 years you'll find you don't want to sell it.

[monsoon]

^The common thing that I keep hearing about people moving into these small condos, is that "Oh I will live in it a few years, sell it to make my money, and move to a larger place (home)". Now it will be interesting given that all these condos were build around the same time, and what will happen in a few years when many of these people want their money back and/or they find they don't want to live in 700-800 sq ft in a city like Charlotte.

[UrbanCharlotte]

Target, Met coming along...

[krazeeboi]

^The tower sure makes an impressive driving north on Kenilworth towards Uptown.

[Guest]

http://www.usgbc.org/LEED/Project/Register...spx?ID=10064955

Came accross this today while searching for a better rendering of the Bank of America Tower. Is Metropolitan Building B the Office tower or what? The attempt at gaining LEED certification I think gives this project some more credibility. I wonder why we have not heard about this in the news.

[uptownliving]

Both the Charlotte City Council and Mecklenburg County commision have approved the funding formula for the new Baxter Street bridge. The current Baxter St bridge will be closed and dismantled this summer just after the Independence Blvd bridge opens.

[dubone]

Moving the Baxter Bridge will be great for Kenilworth. Not only will it be moved to the point where Kings and Kenilworth are closest together (allowing for a shorter road, and more square area for greenway and development), but it will also move the light farther south away from the curve, where the lanes are skinny.

I actually think it would have been reasonable to not build the bridge at all. Independence will have significantly more capacity than Baxter did. They closed Independence at one point putting it all on the little Baxter bridge, so why not just do the same only to the much much larger Independence bridge and intersection?

Oh well, it will be good to have the added connectivity.

[Figursky]

Long time reader, first time poster.

Does anyone have a link to the plans or a map? I'm really interested in this topic and would appreciate a visual.

Thanks!

[dubone]

Welcome to UP.

You should go back and read or skim this thread, as it is rich with information.

Here are some of the posts with graphics:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=292611

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...mp;#entry433697

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...mp;#entry675629

[Guest]

I'm still very suprised nobody has commented on the desire of Pappas to get LEED silver.

[BUILDIT]

i love this project whens the final projected completion date?

[dubone]

Which level of LEED is Pappas pursuing for the office tower? I had heard he was pursuing LEED, but I don't remember what level.

The Target/Expo complex will be opening this fall. I think the office and some of the condos finish in 2008, but I think some components don't finish until 2010.

[Guest]

http://www.usgbc.org/LEED/Project/Register...spx?ID=10064955

Usually the registered project list says what level they are pursuing, but it doesn't. I had heard from "my people" that pappas was pursuing silver, but i've also heard that the Low level Leed certification was being pursued. I guess we won't know until we hear it officially, I am certainly surprised it did not show up in the green building article the observer (or CBJ) ran a few months back.

[Raintree21]

Moving the Baxter Bridge will be great for Kenilworth. Not only will it be moved to the point where Kings and Kenilworth are closest together (allowing for a shorter road, and more square area for greenway and development), but it will also move the light farther south away from the curve, where the lanes are skinny.

I actually think it would have been reasonable to not build the bridge at all. Independence will have significantly more capacity than Baxter did. They closed Independence at one point putting it all on the little Baxter bridge, so why not just do the same only to the much much larger Independence bridge and intersection?

Oh well, it will be good to have the added connectivity.

What is the plan for all of the green space next to where the Exxon was and extends all the way down to Morehead where there is a large concrete slab? This area has been empty for years (with the exception of the recent demolition of the gas station). I would think that the county would want to open this area up and allow the sun and fresh air to get to the creek and extend the greenway that much farther.

[dubone]

That land is Little Sugar Creek Greenway. The landscaping and bike/walking paths and footbridge will be funded in a project that is on the public funding docket I think for 2007. So it is already 'greenway' but not 'Greenway', if that makes sense.

The new Baxter Bridge will go where the old BofA branch used to be. The greenspace shown to the right of the new Baxter Bridge below is where the Exxon and the current Baxter Bridge (aligned with Baxter in Cherry). The condo tower might go slightly on the current Baxter Bridge right of way, but mostly on the land that was part of Midtown Square's parking.

[MZT]

The exterior is beginning to be fastened.

[Raintree21]

The Little Sugar Creek Greenway is FINALLY coming uncapped next between Morehead and Kings Drive!!! The Observer has an article today titled A Creek Runs Through Us. This will open up another half mile of greenway for use and will tie it into the Metropolitan development bringing more park space, "riverwalks," restaurants, and more WiFi.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Raintree21

[Raintree21]

My friend who works for Parks and Rec told me yesterday that dismantling of the concrete cap begins on the 21st. Finally. This will make the total Little Sugar Creek greenway about 3 miles.

[nowensone]

This is such good news, especially since it is happening in the midst of what is a mixed bag of planning in this area. In previous places I have lived, inner city waterways are nothing but concrete bayous and severely depressing to say the least, the greenway is a breath of fresh air in comparison, I