Metropolitan, Midtown Redevelopment

[Eastman]

Just to get back on the design of this thing, I wanted to wait till it was near completion to put my two cents in. For a project that has to present itself to four avenues it is so one sided. Kenilworth is nice, but S. Kings gets left in the dust, and Independence is, well odd. Not that pedestrian friendly, not access friendly, basically alot of signs and you go try and find the door to these places. It's to much tilt-up, to much tan, to much aluminum, I want to embrace this thing but it leaves me cold. Marshalls has horrible access, I fell like I'm going to baggage claim in some airport.

Why would you leave just enough open space between a parking deck and Target to get wet when it rains? Is the little furniture store going to make it? I doubt it. Don't get me wrong. I love having these stores there, I'm sorry Home Expo didn't make it even though it was an odd concept,

I just think it's bad urban design overall. Not horrible, just bad.

[Spartan]

Thats the problem with creating "new" streets that are supposedly pedestrian friendly and ignoring the perfectly good ones that we have today.

[ScottCLT]

It seems odd to me that nothing else has opened up at the Met. I was thinking that all these places were under construction and just around the corner once some of the stores started opening last year. But here it is March, and still just the same stores - Best Buy, Marshall's, Staples, Trader Joe's, and Modern Salon & Spa, and West Elm. Weren't there supposed to be like 20 other stores/restaurants opening here? And I was under the impression that it was pretty much completely leased. Does anyone know how progress is coming on the other retail spaces? Are we going to see any openings soon?

[Guest]

Unfortunately those you listed, minus 1 restaurant is all that was ever announced for the Development. In the fly by there was supposed to be lots of other things but who knows what happened to that.

They have a new MUCH HIGHER RES flythrough and promotional video on the website.

http://www.metmidtown.com/home.htm

Edited March 26, 2009 by Guest

[ScottCLT]

Unfortunately those you listed, minus 1 restaurant is all that was ever announced for the Development. In the fly by there was supposed to be lots of other things but who knows what happened to that.

They have a new MUCH HIGHER RES flythrough and promotional video on the website.

http://www.metmidtown.com/home.htm

There is much more retail space, though, even if empty...right? I was always envisioning this project with retail facing the greenway - a few restaurants with patio seating plus a few stores. Also, the space on Metropolitan Blvd. isn't completely rented. There's still plenty of spots on the same side as West Elm. I know Vivace will claim one of them, but if no one else does, it seems like it will be a lot of empty retail here. I sure hope it fills up - and my hopes are that this retail space hasn't been switch into office space.

I guess my initial thought that brought up this question right now in the first place is - West Elm just seems like it's all there by itself. It never seems busy, though I have heard that the store is doing well. I figured that additional retail in this area would make this more of a destination just to park and then walk around to the stores/restaurants/whatever. But with just a few big box stores, and then West Elm all by itself, I don't see too many people just strolling in West Elm unless they are on a mission and that store is their destination. It just seems like West Elm would get more of the "Oh...that looks like a cool store! Let's check it out!" type patronage from the passers by than it ever would in the current situation.

I hope to God that it is doing well, because (even though HD Design Center was due to a nationwide closing) we defintely don't need another empty space in this complex when it seems so empty already.

[Guest]

There is much more retail space, though, even if empty...right? I was always envisioning this project with retail facing the greenway - a few restaurants with patio seating plus a few stores. Also, the space on Metropolitan Blvd. isn't completely rented. There's still plenty of spots on the same side as West Elm. I know Vivace will claim one of them, but if no one else does, it seems like it will be a lot of empty retail here. I sure hope it fills up - and my hopes are that this retail space hasn't been switch into office space.

I guess my initial thought that brought up this question right now in the first place is - West Elm just seems like it's all there by itself. It never seems busy, though I have heard that the store is doing well. I figured that additional retail in this area would make this more of a destination just to park and then walk around to the stores/restaurants/whatever. But with just a few big box stores, and then West Elm all by itself, I don't see too many people just strolling in West Elm unless they are on a mission and that store is their destination. It just seems like West Elm would get more of the "Oh...that looks like a cool store! Let's check it out!" type patronage from the passers by than it ever would in the current situation.

I hope to God that it is doing well, because (even though HD Design Center was due to a nationwide closing) we defintely don't need another empty space in this complex when it seems so empty already.

I don't think retail space could be converted to office in such a project. There are at least 5-10 more empty spots you are right in that aspect. Its just that none of it has been announced as being occupied as of yet.

[voyager12]

There was talk of small restaurants and stores fronting the greenway but I assumed they stalled because of the recession. I agree that West Elm looks a little odd hanging out there on the corner.

[HopHead]

Talked to a buddy of mine over the weekend who is a board member at the Metropolitan. He said that they are still on target to finish the current phase of the greenway in the next few months (I think June is the target date). Also, he indicated that condo sales at the Met have picked up in the last month. Pretty much averaging sales of a few units per week. A lot of people are looking at units as interest has definitely gone up since the prices are near what pre-sales were a few years ago. The restaurant portion is on hold for the time being. The original tenants backed out b/c of the market, but they are working on attracting others...

[monsoon]

The development fails because it was based on the "irrational" market that we have had over the past few years and now that it is gone, so are the fortunes of this place. Where they completely got it wrong, and where Pappas developments continue to disappoint" is they completely ignored the potential of placing retail directly on Kings and instead built what essentially another shopping mall without a roof. Birkdale Village and Phillips place have the same issues.

Kings was starting to turn into an interesting street before this development was created. There was a potential to make it a nice retail and with some city involvement, stroll district that could have run from Myers Park to CPCC and the possibly the future street car. Instead, the Met had destroyed a significant portion of this from ever happening as that long portion of Kings is really nothing more than windows dressing and a place for cars to access the place. Imagine if the city had instead placed larger sidewalks there instead (both sides) and used the tax money an zoning to encourage smaller Kings drive oriented retail.

Anyone who knows about restaurants knows that a restaurant that is on a greenway with no visibility on a street is a restaurant that is not going to make it. Pappas is good about getting tax concessions out of municipal govenments. He isn't so good about building responsible development. These little disneylands are unsustainable and in the long run look worse than the places they replaced. I have not been in PP in a while, but a lot of the retail in BV has died off and I suspect that more will follow. I also take note that he is unable to get something going at Scaleybark even though he got that with a significant tax subsidy as well.

[Andyc545]

Where they completely got it wrong, and where Pappas developments continue to disappoint" is they completely ignored the potential of placing retail directly on Kings and instead built what essentially another shopping mall without a roof. Birkdale Village and Phillips place have the same issues.

I think it would be hard to not agree with this statement. It was an opportunity wasted. I didn't mind the big box portions to this development, but where they went wrong was they let the big box take precedent. This meaning where storage rooms or store ends to the big box stores, it created dead walls facing streets already lined with the pedestrian infrastructures instead of them leaving street ends for small retail stores or welcoming entrances. And also I didn't mind the parking garage set in the middle in the second stage. Where they went wrong was putting all of the main entrances facing the dark polluted garages. They should have either done the same thing as the Harris Teeter in 4th Ward and provided 2 entrances (one for pedestrians) or forced people who park to walk out on the sidewalks and entered legitimate store entrances.

I admit I had a lot of hope for this as it provided a plethora of retail to a much lacking market and gave hope towards an extension of urbanity, but they made design mistakes, and they wouldn't even required huge changes (mainly moving entrances around). I hope that the greenway side of the development with the condos and ground floor retail turns out better and provides pedestrian opportunity. I guess it's beginning to all just beat a dead horse at this point.

[nonillogical]

Kings was starting to turn into an interesting street before this development was created. There was a potential to make it a nice retail and with some city involvement, stroll district that could have run from Myers Park to CPCC and the possibly the future street car. Instead, the Met had destroyed a significant portion of this from ever happening as that long portion of Kings is really nothing more than windows dressing and a place for cars to access the place. Imagine if the city had instead placed larger sidewalks there instead (both sides) and used the tax money an zoning to encourage smaller Kings drive oriented retail.

Anyone who knows about restaurants knows that a restaurant that is on a greenway with no visibility on a street is a restaurant that is not going to make it.

I agree, I can only hope the other side of Kings develops with some outward-facing retail and maybe apartments on top, but I wouldn't be the least surprised if we end up with another "backside" of an oversized mixed-use project.

However I think that restaurants on the greenway are going to do okay here. There are enough people passing through already that word will spread, that is if they are any good and hopefully fill a new niche, not just hitting the same bases we already have covered around uptown. A nice seafood or southwestern place with outdoor seating would make a killing. Come to think of it, it really needs a bar, there are strangely few (for Charlotte) in that area.

[HopHead]

For me, I don't see it as a failure by any stretch. It has a Trader Joe's, Best Buy and Target across the street, all within a 5 minute ride to me (and many others that live in uptown, South End, Dilworth, Elizabeth, etc). That means no more god awful trips down South Blvd. The greenway is a much needed thing in this area of town. When complete, it will be a nice amenity to the residents and those that choose to frequent it. Pretty much everyone I know things this is an asset to the residents and most of which have nothing negative to say about it. Could some things have been done differently here? Sure. But is it a failure b/c some urban design geeks don't agree with everything that was done? Of course not... At the end of the day, if people are frequenting it and it's not a ghost town I would say something was done right.

[Charlotte_native]

But is it a failure b/c some urban design geeks don't agree with everything that was done? Of course not... At the end of the day, if people are frequenting it and it's not a ghost town I would say something was done right.

I'd definitely count it as an urban design failure, but in terms of business it is complete success. I don't shop there because I don't really have a need. I don't get the Trader Joe's hype and don't need anything for now from anywhere else (though we bought a good bit of stuff for my partners business when he remodeled at West Elm) but would gladly shop there due to location when needed.

As for the condos, from what I've seen, the finishes actually look sort of cheap (from photos I've seen, I've not been in them) passed off as modern. Though I'm fine living in mixed use, I will say this particular mixed use would feel more like living at/over a mall than urban mixed use.

That being said eventually they'll all sell, the stores seem to be doing really well (other than Home Depot but their whole chain of these went under) and I can't wait for the restaurants along the creek -- we'll surely give them a try.

[mallguy]

I'm in the minority here but I don't see Midtown as a design failure. I can walk there from uptown and it's not hard to hoof it to, and it consists of big-box stores- even if the entrances were along Kings Drive, any big-box store would have a lot of dead space at street level since those stores usually just have a big entrance and blank walls.

So glad to have regular retail uptownish that I'm fine with not having a Madison Avenue or the like there.

[monsoon]

.....

So glad to have regular retail uptownish that I'm fine with not having a Madison Avenue or the like there.

I don't think it is an either/or decision.

[DigitalSky]

I'd definitely count it as an urban design failure, but in terms of business it is complete success. I don't shop there because I don't really have a need. I don't get the Trader Joe's hype and don't need anything for now from anywhere else (though we bought a good bit of stuff for my partners business when he remodeled at West Elm) but would gladly shop there due to location when needed.

As for the condos, from what I've seen, the finishes actually look sort of cheap (from photos I've seen, I've not been in them) passed off as modern. Though I'm fine living in mixed use, I will say this particular mixed use would feel more like living at/over a mall than urban mixed use.

That being said eventually they'll all sell, the stores seem to be doing really well (other than Home Depot but their whole chain of these went under) and I can't wait for the restaurants along the creek -- we'll surely give them a try.

I kinda have to agree with that in terms of that I thought it'd be a little more inclusive in its design, but ultimately they did land the right tenants that we need for that area and well it is what it is so we should just embrace it now.

[voyager12]

The checkout section of Best Buy seems very misplaced to me. Is it a tactic to keep customers in the store longer? I don't recall other Best Buys being camouflaged by a candy counter.

[HopHead]

The checkout section of Best Buy seems very misplaced to me. Is it a tactic to keep customers in the store longer? I don't recall other Best Buys being camouflaged by a candy counter.

Yea, they basically have it backwards if you park in the development. The checkout would be perfect if you're actually walking outside to the street. Maybe that's their way of saying they actually did think about making this more pedestrian friendly? But then is it now not commuter friendly?

[Spartan]

But then is it now not commuter friendly?

What's the problem with that?

[HopHead]

Word on the street is that Whole Foods, Kohl's, Costco Wholesale, Sam's Club, BJ's Wholesale Club and Wal-Mart have all checked out the Design Center spot... I think we'd all hope for Whole Foods, but they probably wouldn't take the whole store. According to the Observer there's an agreement that prevents a health club, restaurant, hotel or movie theater from opening there, all a good thing IMO.

Who has designs on Design Center

[DigitalSky]

Word on the street is that Whole Foods, Kohl's, Costco Wholesale, Sam's Club, BJ's Wholesale Club and Wal-Mart have all checked out the Design Center spot... I think we'd all hope for Whole Foods, but they probably wouldn't take the whole store. According to the Observer there's an agreement that prevents a health club, restaurant, hotel or movie theater from opening there, all a good thing IMO.

Who has designs on Design Center

The problem with the site is that it is a dunegon. It lacks visibility and connectedness, so that would make splitting it up difficult. People are suggesting Whole Foods/Barnes and Noble or Whole Foods/Dick's Sporting Goods, etc... not really sure what will happen though. I still think, however, that warehouse club is the most likely scenario-- that, or Kohl's, which seems to be the frontrunner since it is the PERFECT size for a Kohl's.

[southslider]

Ideally, I think the larger tenant would take everything across from the deck (having the former "exit" of Home Depot as its main entrance), leaving the smaller tenant some visibility (having the former "entrance" behind Wendy's as its entrance). Both could still have signage where Home Depot did on the building and the deck.

[orulz]

I still think, however, that warehouse club is the most likely scenario-- that, or Kohl's, which seems to be the frontrunner since it is the PERFECT size for a Kohl's.

Isn't 127,000sqft actually a bit large for a Kohl's? If Kohl's does bite, it could likely be subdivided, with Kohl's taking 80,000 or so, and something smaller like Whole Foods or Dick's taking the rest.

You're right about the visibility challenge, though. I agree, maybe a Costco/BJ's/Sam's is the most likely possibilty Those stores don't seem to rely on visibility that much anyway. Walmart, not so much. 127,000 is a bit smaller than your average super Walmart, and they like to build their own stores anyway.

[monsoon]

I don't see Costco, Sams or BJs going into this location as they already have stores close enough to midtown to make it redundant. If Costco were to put a store at midtown for example, it would cannibalize their store on Tyvola. Most likely if either Costco or Sams build another store it will be in The Lake area. I think BJs is in trouble and isn't interested in expansions. They just closed stores in SC.

The Super Walmart opening just down the road at Amity Gardens is going to short circuit any efforts to get a big box retailer in this location. Any new businesses opening, if there are any, anytime soon, are going to want to locate near that new Walmart because of the traffic that Walmart generates. They are not wanting to go into a difficult access badly designed neo-strip mall in a location that has nothing but a history of business failures over the last 30 years.

[krazeeboi]

I surely don't mean to rag on anyone or ruffle anyone's feathers when I say this, but how many times are we going to say about any development that gets basic urbanity wrong, "Well, it's not perfect, but it's OK?" I understand that there will always be room for improvement, but there should be an expectation that at least the basics of good urban design will at least be met. Enough of these missed opportunities will continue to make Charlotte a city that lacks urban cohesiveness of a significant scale outside of Uptown. Furthermore, even though they may be few in number, I think there are enough examples of similar developments done right elsewhere around the country, so it cannot be said that it can't be done. I know it's been mentioned before, but the developers should have taken note of this development in Columbia Heights in DC:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/81313254@N00/...in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/81313254@N00/...in/photostream/