Metropolitan, Midtown Redevelopment

[DigitalSky]

Isn't 127,000sqft actually a bit large for a Kohl's? If Kohl's does bite, it could likely be subdivided, with Kohl's taking 80,000 or so, and something smaller like Whole Foods or Dick's taking the rest.

You're right about the visibility challenge, though. I agree, maybe a Costco/BJ's/Sam's is the most likely possibilty Those stores don't seem to rely on visibility that much anyway. Walmart, not so much. 127,000 is a bit smaller than your average super Walmart, and they like to build their own stores anyway.

Yeah I over-calculated, Kohl's are a little smaller than that.

[Spartan]

I surely don't mean to rag on anyone or ruffle anyone's feathers when I say this, but how many times are we going to say about any development that gets basic urbanity wrong, "Well, it's not perfect, but it's OK?" I understand that there will always be room for improvement, but there should be an expectation that at least the basics of good urban design will at least be met. Enough of these missed opportunities will continue to make Charlotte a city that lacks urban cohesiveness of a significant scale outside of Uptown. Furthermore, even though they may be few in number, I think there are enough examples of similar developments done right elsewhere around the country, so it cannot be said that it can't be done. I know it's been mentioned before, but the developers should have taken note of this development in Columbia Heights in DC:

Well said krazee. We have to get it right the first time because we're stuck with it forever. Good urban design is not optional, and we shouldn't be accepting anything that is not as good as it should be.

[49er]

The Super Walmart opening just down the road at Amity Gardens is going to short circuit any efforts to get a big box retailer in this location. Any new businesses opening, if there are any, anytime soon, are going to want to locate near that new Walmart because of the traffic that Walmart generates. They are not wanting to go into a difficult access badly designed neo-strip mall in a location that has nothing but a history of business failures over the last 30 years.

The same could be said of the retailers you mention flocking to be with Wal Mart on the site of a former failed strip mall. Whats the difference? There isn't one. In fact, I can't picture national big box tenants following Wal Mart to a portion of expressway that looks abandoned. The demographics and existing retail base are much stronger at the midtown location. Anyway, its all hypothetical at this point, but I believe that there will be plenty of suitors for this space.

[monsoon]

.... Whats the difference? There isn't one. ....

Yes there is. Walmart is the the biggest retailer in the world now, the biggest employer in NC now, and one of the few businesses in this country actually making money. I am not blowing the horn for more Walmart development but those are the facts. If you were going to open a new business had had the choice of going next to Walmart or Midtown, IMO, the choice is obvious. Whether we like it or not, business is going to follow successful business and you don't get anymore successful at retail than Walmart. As long as Charlotte allows this sort of development then every new one just cannibalizes the one the preceeded it.

In this case, that Walmart development is gong to eat up MidTown like a fat kid does to grocery store cake.

[49er]

If that is your logic all of the popular stores like Best Buy and Trader Joes should be out on Wilkinson in a development by the new Wal Mart there. Wal Mart in and of itself does not equal a retailing paradise.

[monsoon]

If that is your logic all of the popular stores like Best Buy and Trader Joes should be out on Wilkinson in a development by the new Wal Mart there. Wal Mart in and of itself does not equal a retailing paradise.

Maybe Best Buy and Trader Joes doesn't want to be on Wilkinson Blvd. You have to ask them. It doesn't change anything I said however.

[Spartan]

Ok people, monsoon has a point. Don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Its a well known fact that operations that follow Walmart where ever it goes, though it is usually smaller retail. Subway, McDonalds, and Dollar General come to mind, but there are others. I've heard that some retail operations base their business model on Walmart locations. Point being, its reasonable to assume that other retailers will open up or relocate with Walmart. That said, the same retailers that remain at the Eastway location will close up. I think that the caveat here is that given the site constraints, new businesses will only be able to open up at the walmart shopping center itself, rather than in the area around it.

Of course, this is getting off topic for Midtown.

Its inevitable that something will move into Midtown. Charlotte city-within-a-city concept works pretty well, and if you use Route 4 as your basis, there is relatively little national retail in that area except for Midtown. So where do y'all think new retail will locate?

[uptownliving]

Whether we like it or not, business is going to follow successful business ...

I don't agree with you that Target is a failed business.

Using your logic that companies like to locate next to succusful ones...well Target in my book is pretty damn succusful and that it will be a big draw for whatever goes in the space vacated by Home Depot Design Center.

[JayGee]

Yes there is. Walmart is the the biggest retailer in the world now, the biggest employer in NC now, and one of the few businesses in this country actually making money. I am not blowing the horn for more Walmart development but those are the facts. If you were going to open a new business had had the choice of going next to Walmart or Midtown, IMO, the choice is obvious. Whether we like it or not, business is going to follow successful business and you don't get anymore successful at retail than Walmart. As long as Charlotte allows this sort of development then every new one just cannibalizes the one the preceeded it.

In this case, that Walmart development is gong to eat up MidTown like a fat kid does to grocery store cake.

Retail siting is a lot more about demographics than it is following another successful retailer, at least for the big box retailer. The demographics between Midtown and Amity Gardens are totally different.

As someone else said, the smaller service type of retail will follow Wal-Mart for the traffic, but not the big boys. They are destination retail and do not feed off of other retailers traffic, or at least do not site their stores for that purpose.

Now it is true that some big boxers will site their stores close to their competition, Lowes and Home Depot come to mind, but we're talking within a mile or two and in the same demographic.

I don't recall ever seeing a Best Buy or Target, etc. in the same actual development as Wal-Mart. Could be wrong about that, but I just don't recall any. When a major retailer anchors a shopping center and is paying a gazillion dollars to lease the space, it is not uncommon for them to have an agreement with the developer to restrict the other businesses that can locate there for competitive reasons. I'm not saying Wal-Mart does that, and I don't know if they do it with big box, I just know it happens. You will probably never see a bagel shop close to a Harris Teeter.

[monsoon]

I don't agree with you that Target is a failed business.

Using your logic that companies like to locate next to succusful ones...well Target in my book is pretty damn succusful and that it will be a big draw for whatever goes in the space vacated by Home Depot Design Center.

Never said that Target was a failed business. If you want to point out where I said that then I will stand corrected, otherwise don't put words in my mouth to somehow prop up a point you are attempting to make. You do this quite often.

---------------------------

Target has $69B in revenue. Walmart has $405B in revenue. These are not comparable companies as Walmart is heading to have a $1/2 Trillion in revenue while Target's sales revenue is flat.

[DigitalSky]

I don't recall ever seeing a Best Buy or Target, etc. in the same actual development as Wal-Mart. Could be wrong about that, but I just don't recall any. When a major retailer anchors a shopping center and is paying a gazillion dollars to lease the space, it is not uncommon for them to have an agreement with the developer to restrict the other businesses that can locate there for competitive reasons. I'm not saying Wal-Mart does that, and I don't know if they do it with big box, I just know it happens. You will probably never see a bagel shop close to a Harris Teeter.

Best Buy does co-locate with Wal-mart in some developments (University City comes to mind). There's a Brueggers Bagels in a couple of Harris Teeter shopping centers I can think of too, so I'm not sure if that theory is exactly accurate.

Edited May 2, 2009 by DigitalSky

[JayGee]

Best Buy does co-locate with Wal-mart in some developments (University City comes to mind). There's a Brueggers Bagels in a couple of Harris Teeter shopping centers I can think of too, so I'm not sure if that theory is exactly accurate.

It's not a theory, it's a fact, but that doesn't mean it is always true. It just depends on the contract between the major tenant and the developer. Admittedly, it has been quite a few years since I did any work like that, so the climate may have changed.

[Miesian Corners]

Yes there is. Walmart is the the biggest retailer in the world now, the biggest employer in NC now, and one of the few businesses in this country actually making money. I am not blowing the horn for more Walmart development but those are the facts. If you were going to open a new business had had the choice of going next to Walmart or Midtown, IMO, the choice is obvious. Whether we like it or not, business is going to follow successful business and you don't get anymore successful at retail than Walmart. As long as Charlotte allows this sort of development then every new one just cannibalizes the one the preceeded it.

In this case, that Walmart development is gong to eat up MidTown like a fat kid does to grocery store cake.

They go after different demographics and because of that, Walmart will not destroy midtown. What Walmart will do is create yet another empty carcass on Eastway Drive which will (eventually) lead yet another empty strip center. We're trading one for the other.

Currently, the Target in midtown has the highest sales per square foot of any of its Charlotte region stores. I don't think those people who are in love with their Target are suddenly going to abandon it to go to a shiny new Walmart further out of town (and more difficult to get to than the current store on Eastway).

[uptownliving]

I don't think those people who are in love with their Target are suddenly going to abandon it to go to a shiny new Walmart further out of town (and more difficult to get to than the current store on Eastway).

I agree...and besides there has been a shiny new Wal Mart on Wilkinson just a 5 minute drive from Midtown since the Target opened and the stores at Midtown seem to be doing fine in spite of it.

For me personally I stopped going to the shiny new Wal Mart on Wilkinson when the midtown Target opened because the Target is closer to me and much easier to get to.

[voyager12]

I just have a feeling that a wholesale club is going to take over the HD spot. A Whole Foods would be great but I don't think the space lends itself that kind of operation. A Costco or the like would blend well with Target I think.

Edited May 4, 2009 by voyager12

[monsoon]

They go after different demographics and because of that, Walmart will not destroy midtown.........

This is interesting commentary coming from you. Last year I wrote this in response to someone who implied that Target and Walmart attracted different types of shoppers. (i.e. Target shoppers are too good for Walmart)

I am fascinated by this statement because by almost any relevant measurement you would want to use, Target is just as bad as Walmart. They reason you don't hear as much about them is because they have penetrated more into the middle class which for some reason makes it OK. But walk into any Target and you will find the same minimium wage employees working to sell the same useless junk made in China and the rest of the 3rd world that ends up in landfills in several months.

If you were to weigh Target vs Walmart stores these days, you would find Walmart willing to build more energy efficient stores, and IMO more attractive ones than the standard Target going up these days. Walmarts also now include a bunch of mini-stores that provide services to people who would otherwise have to drive elsewhere. I am not defending them, but only pointing out that if Target is the measuring stick then Walmart beats them in many cases.

If you really want to support big box retail then go to a place like Costco which actually takes care of its employees.

I also find the idea that a urban Target or urban Walmart is somehow more acceptable than a suburban one a laughable idea. It just means the city has sold out to the same mentality that created the suburbs in the first place.

Now I say your commentary is interesting because you immediately replied as follows:

^We finally agree on something! Amen to the entire post, Monsoon. Very well said.

Did you forget? Maybe you should read what Spartain posted above. I think it is funny that some are thinking that Target is a cut above Walmart and because of it that new center at Amity Center won't affect mid-town. If anything a lot of people are shopping at Target in mid-town because there isn't anything else nearby. Walmart will change that.

[hokiehigh]

Voyager ... I agree. I vote for a Whole Foods but I would take a Costco too. It would also be a cool location for something like a Container Store. I don't think there is one in Charlotte yet.

[voyager12]

It's interesting, the condos at Met and the center overall are marketed with an upscale angle but the majority of tenants are mainstream. I guess it could be called cheap chic since that is Target's and Trader Joe's bailwick.

[Miesian Corners]

This is interesting commentary coming from you. Last year I wrote this in response to someone who implied that Target and Walmart attracted different types of shoppers. (i.e. Target shoppers are too good for Walmart)

Now I say your commentary is interesting because you immediately replied as follows:Did you forget? Maybe you should read what Spartain posted above. I think it is funny that some are thinking that Target is a cut above Walmart and because of it that new center at Amity Center won't affect mid-town. If anything a lot of people are shopping at Target in mid-town because there isn't anything else nearby. Walmart will change that.

You're taking my comments out of context. Facts are facts: Target DOES attract a higher income demographic than Walmart. And while Walmart does do a better job in regards to greening up its store footprint than Target (use of natural light, energy efficient heating and air and using recycled materials for and during construction of stores), it won't change the minds of consumers who are crowding into the Target store at Midtown. They simply aren't going to stop shopping there because a new Walmart is open three miles away.

Edited for a spelling error.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Miesian Corners

[monsoon]

^I never said that people who prefer to purchase their chinese made junk at Target over the chinese made junk in Walmart would go to Walmart once it was built. I DID say that Walmart, due to its much higher volumes will have the effect of sucking all the new business from the Met strip mall.

I will also predict the Met is going to have a hard time holding on to some of the businesses they have. Not because of the Walmart development but the entire concept of the Met is messed up, especially with the return to the realistic economy.

[49er]

I'd like to know the true definition of strip mall...because I certainly do not consider this development a "strip mall". What Wally World intends to build in the same footprint as Amity Gardens is indeed a strip mall through and through. It is a ghastly development that is eerily similar to what was built in the 1960's.

I have yet to see any evidence as to how exactly wal mart is going to suck the life out of this development. If anything, electronics retailers like Best Buy don't want to co locate with Wal Mart because of the competition for flat screen tv's, etc. They probably don't want people cross shopping in the same center looking for the best deal.

[monsoon]

Characteristics of a Strip Mall

• An open area shopping center developed as a single project (can have multiple phases)
  
• Contains significant amounts of parking on the property.
  
• Operates as a self contained unit.
  
• Has little relevance or connection to history of surrounding community.
  
• Located very close to major traffic arterials and bonus if near freeway exit.
  
• Usually dominated and built for 1 or more major big box suburban retailers.
  

Strip malls are usually designed with contemporary building styles and materials to attract the middle class and upscale customer. It should be noted this is the characteristic of all strip malls. Once the luster wears off and after the passage of time, people's preferences change these places fall in to disrepair or get torn down and redeveloped. It's been repeated twice on this property. It will be repeated again. The only difference is this time we have a strip mall vs a regional/enclosed mall.

[Eastman]

True, but then you have your rare oddballs like Park Road Shopping Center, they change tenants over time but never go under. What should the lifetime of any retail center be, 10-20, 40 years? I would call any center lasting several decades successful.

[JayGee]

Strip malls are usually designed with contemporary building styles and materials to attract the middle class and upscale customer. It should be noted this is the characteristic of all strip malls. Once the luster wears off and after the passage of time, people's preferences change these places fall in to disrepair or get torn down and redeveloped. It's been repeated twice on this property. It will be repeated again. The only difference is this time we have a strip mall vs a regional/enclosed mall.

So what's the answer? People's preferences will always change. For a long time house buyers shunned 'old' architecture. Now its coming back. Same with retail. That's why you have faux Charlestons popping up and storefronts that look like they have intricate stonework, except its styrofoam.

[urban980]

Retail and real estate are all about location location location. Metropolitan has a great location. I seriously doubt a Wal Mart (a couple of miles away at that) will make a difference. However, if there isn't a significant increase of development between uptown and Metropolitan, The Met is in trouble. The Nascar Hall is suppose to be the catalyst for such growth in this corridor. Only time will tell.

It is interesting that Charlotte does not have any Whole Foods. There were plans for one in Elizabeth, but I have read that they(Whole Foods) have pulled out. Whole Foods is a logical choice for the Met, but I have heard the rumor that some group is trying to keep Whole Foods out of the Charlotte market. If this is true, I wonder if it is the same group that ran Hannaford out of Charlotte. At any rate, Whole Foods should try to set up shop at Met. IMO