Thinking Ahead: CATS 2035 Transit Plan

[InitialD]

Sorry..I was asking about the "Locally Preferred Alternative" form of transit for the Silver Line and forgot to write that in my post. I have read that although MTC initially decided on Bus Rapid Transit for the SE Corridor, they will probably opt for Light Rail down Independence. Just wondering if there was any truth to that.

[southslider]

I think the lesson from T-REX is whether Independence could change from its mile-a-decade expressway-conversion into a major turnpike project with transit. As it stands now, North and Northeast are lucky to still be built by 2020. Those corridors tap the half-cent sales tax, Streetcar does not. Southeast can use that source, but then you're stuck waiting in line.

So with tolls, be it a full blown turnpike or just HOT lanes, you have a possible alternative funding source to see construction sooner. However, cost would be less and a larger share of state funding more likely (NCDOT controls the NC Turnpike Authority), if BRT.

Simply put, HOT/HOV lanes can share asphalt with BRT between stations, but trains obviously can't. HOT lanes could pave the way for BRT. Staying with LRT would likely mean NCDOT/NCTPA just setting aside space for CATS to still improve later as a separate project.

Believe me, the T in NCDOT does stand for all forms of transportation, including transit. But if Southeast ends up LRT, the State likely reverts to its precedent of giving only 25% matching funds at best. So if LRT, you're waiting in line again to use the half-cent sales tax, or increasing that tax. Only combined HOT/BRT would likely see NCTPA/NCDOT paying for a larger share and speed up Southeast Corridor's implementation date within the current half-cent tax.

[cltbwimob]

Thanks InitialD. I am glad that Muth is smart enough to realize that the 2006 FTA model projections never predicted such success on the Blue Line. I hope that MTC will take into account the gross 55-85% underestimate produced by the FTA model for the Blue Line and not just rigidly adhere to FTA numbers when constructing the Silver Line.

[InitialD]

Thanks InitialD. I am glad that Muth is smart enough to realize that the 2006 FTA model projections never predicted such success on the Blue Line. I hope that MTC will take into account the gross 55-85% underestimate produced by the FTA model for the Blue Line and not just rigidly adhere to FTA numbers when constructing the Silver Line.

[cltbwimob]

I just don't think that BRT will be as successful as LRT either in terms of ridership or TOD. Plus I get the sense that people along the corridor want LRT, at least from what I have read. Bottom line is BRT is little more than glorified bus service, and I think the population would generally prefer to have rail transit of some form. In my opinion people are less likely to ride BRT and developers are less likely to build multi-million dollar projects centered around bus stations as opposed to train stations.

[southslider]

^All true. But if East Charlotte wants to transform both Central Avenue and Independence Boulevard with rail transit, patience will be an understated virtue.

Personally, I don't think TOD happens easily about any transit, be it bus or rail, when it is running within an expressway median. So my personal bias is build streetcar on Central to transform East Charlotte, but build BRT on Independence to transport it.

[ChiefJoJo]

You could do as I suggested and toll Independence (all lanes or special toll lanes), and use the money to support the project, both highway and transit. There are plenty of creative ways to cobble together supplementary money, but tolling is among those that makes the most sense, especially when the Monroe Bypass is being built that way up to 485. Put LRT on the edge of the right of way where it has the best chance at affecting land use change and leave the median for the toll or HOV lanes.

[cltbwimob]

^

My idea is a piggyback to yours. Make the 2 lanes down the middle HOT lanes and make them "bi-directional" such that during morning rush hour 74 has 6 lanes going into the city and 4 lanes going out and vice versa for afternoon rush hour. In addition to that, add LRT along the side of 74 and design the stations with the capacity to handle 3 car trains. Finally, although this is most certainly wishful thinking, add commuter rail extending to Monroe on the existing CSX track.

If CATS wanted to cut cost on light rail, they could end the line somwhere around Crown Point with a transfer station allowing passengers to transition between LRT and the commuter rail. That would save about 3 or 4 miles of Light Rail line cutting costs for LRT along the corridor down by $200-300 million [based on a cost of $50-75 million per mile], however CATS could extend Light Rail all the way to Levine and terminate there with a transfer station over to the Commuter Rail. At any rate it would be very easy to terminate the line and transfer over to CRT at either point since the CSX tracks are so close. If CATS did choose to terminate LRT at Crown Point, the cost savings would be just about enough to build the commuter rail...or at least put a significant dent in the cost.

Between the transfer point and downtown Charlotte, the Commuter rail could have a very limited amout of stations (only 3 or 4). This would save on the cost of the commuter rail and encourage interline transfer to the Light Rail.

Finally, I think a massive urban and economic revitalization would take place along the east side. With a 10 lane expressway, commuter rail, and light rail, the city could redevlop both Independence and areas of Monroe road where the CRT stations would be. All that along with Streetcar around Eastland, and I think the area would become a cash cow for the city both in tax revenue and economic investment. It would make that portion of the city friendly to both commuters who love suburbia and pedestrians who prefer the city.

The only drawback is of course...cost. However, I think it would be well worth the investment. In my opinion, it would secure the transportation future of the East side.

[DEnd]

^

My idea is a piggyback to yours. Make the 2 lanes down the middle HOT lanes and make them "bi-directional" such that during morning rush hour 74 has 6 lanes going into the city and 4 lanes going out and vice versa for afternoon rush hour.

[tozmervo]

If I'm not mistaken, studies have clearly shown that four lanes (one direction) is as high as you can go before adding lanes does virtually nothing to ease congestion. In any case, you can't use a setup like Tyvola or 7th street - with Independence you have to have barriers between the east and west bound traffic.

In any event, I think its absurd that we're converting Independence into an impassable barrier with plans to convert even more. I would hope that we've learned enough about the effect of highways on neighborhoods that we don't let NC DOT wreck East Charlotte neighborhoods even more just so commuters from Matthews and Monroe have an easier drive.

I would want to see Independence become a true boulevard: a high volume street that is welcoming to all people, that connects without dividing, and is the front of a neighborhood, not the back. I think this can be done regardless of the selection of BRT or LRT, although my inclination is that BRT may permit more permeability from once side to the other. Either way, as the dedicated transit line is built may be our only opportunity to shape the Independence corridor into an area we can be proud of and will serve future generations, so there is a great deal more thought and discussion due on the topic.

[cltbwimob]

What would be the point in that? That part of Independence isn't a problem, and with that much traffic possibilities there are other problems that would be created especially with the exits off of 277. Plus it would do nothing to help the Amity Gardens area of Independence.

[southslider]

Independence ain't exactly the Champs-Elysees. If 7th Street through Elizabeth is to be "road-dieted a la East Blvd" and Central through Plaza-Midwood see a streetcar, the cars traveling through East Charlotte to/from Matthews/Mint Hill and Union County still need to be funneled somewhere. Better to turn Indy into a full-fledged freeway so other streets can become more livable.

And continuous strips of auto-oriented retail even on South Blvd are failing (and Wilkinson, North Tryon, etc). It's an antiquated land use. The expressway project has just sped up the Indy corridor's painful transition. TOD will gravitate to Central and 7th/Monroe, not Indy. TOD should really be considered POD (for peds). But obviously, an expressway is a hostile environment for walking.

Besides, US-74 is already more of a highway than a street. And unless I-277 is demolished or the Monroe By-Pass/Connector stopped, the demand for "Charlotte's missing freeway" will still be there, if not stronger in the future.

[DEnd]

It would help pay for the project. This would be our own version of a massive T-rex project which would require massive amounts of funding.

At any rate, the discussion of Independence widening is a little off topic...LRT and Commuter Rail are more important than widening 74 as far as I am concerned. If they chose to put LRT transit in the middle of 74 and didn't bother with HOT lanes, that would be fine. I just happen to think that it would be better along the side with extra lanes. I think massive transit and road projects need to be undertaken on that side of Charlotte.

[cltbwimob]

DEnd,

I think you are missing my point.

First, I am proposing extending the median lanes several miles eastward, not just keeping the current busway...however, I think that they should be bi-directional HOT lanes.

Second, most of the development along independence is auto retail/ strip mall. There are very few neighborhoods that would be affected by the T-Rex style idea that I would like to see. As far as road widening, there is only a need to widen the road one extra lane in either direction in most places. Most of the road is already 3 lanes in either direction, and since there is already a busway or a median along the entire road, the actual footprint of the road would only need to be widened about 30 feet total...just enough for the extra lane on each side. The widening will do very little to damage current neighborhoods. The only thing that would be a problem would be train ROW on the side.

Third, you use the "Past is Prologue" argument. (I assume by your verb tense that you lived in Farm Pond sometime in the past but no longer live there). While those style arguments are great for predicting sociological and human behavior patterns for the future, they are highly ineffective at properly predicting how to deal with future traffic flows. The title of the forum suggests that we look ahead by 1/4 of a century to 2035 and think about what the city will need. Long range transportation planning must be forward thinking, it can not be based on past or current traffic flows otherwise the planning becomes reactionary and rearward-looking. Based on current population projections, the city proper will be home to over 1 million people in 2035 and population projections for the Metro area put the population as high 4+ million by then. Charllotte will be very different, and the simple addition of BRT with no widening of 74 will cause a log-jam. For a city that currently has air quality that is so bad, the EPA is threatening to impose it's own form of sanctions...traffic jams are not what we need. However a combined use of CR, LRT, and a widened Indy with bi-directional HOT lanes will go far in addressing both commuter needs and air quality

Finally, buses are not very popular culturally when compared to rail. Bottom line is that despite having it's own ROW, BRT still uses buses on rubber tires that ride on pavement. It seems that some people on the east side are upset with the idea that they may be the only corridor that doesn't get some form of rail. Some have even stated that if BRT is the best they get, then don't even bother building the Silver Line. Because of the current displeasure, I think CATS will struggle to meet it's projected ridership totals with BRT. I think on the other hand, with rail transit, they will exceed there ridership projections just like the Blue Line did.

[DEnd]

I'm not missing your point at all, it's very similar to one of the proposals for LRT/BRT down Independence. The problem that I see is that there just isn't the room to expand Independence 4 more lanes, especially between Albemarle and Idlewild, and have room to really be able to redevelop towards a TOD along that corridor. That redevelopment is nessacary for those neighborhoods to survive and thrive. 10-20 feet doesn't sound like much, but it's the equivilent of 500 sqft in a condo.

People on the east side (especially down Albemarle Rd) will ride the bus and they already do. The 9 is (or at least was) the most ridden bus line in Charlotte. People along that line were parking and riding long before there was a park and ride program in Charlotte. I know of people who in the early 90's who lived along that line who didn't own a car... It's not that they couldn't afford one it's that they didn't need one. Granted those people mostly moved there from NYC. But the selling points of mass transit is convenience, speed, and cost. BRT has an advantage in convenience and initial cost, LRT in operating cost. The reason more people don't ride the bus in that area is there is to great of a door to door time, BRT will narrow that gap. I'd rather the CATS spend similar or even a bit more money and send BRT down Albemarle and Indepencence than it would to run LRT down Independence alone. Then in 15-20 years when the BRT line needs to be repaved it could easily be converted to LRT.

Another thing I'd like to see them do is make gateway station an indoor/outdoor mall, at least 3 times the square footage they are planning anyway, it would have guarenteed traffic and bring some much needed shopping to uptown. Sears and JC Penny's would fit well there. Their success would cause more high end retailers to look at opening stores uptown as well.

[cltbwimob]

^

I am saying use the median for the HOT lanes...and make the lanes multi directional meaning put the little boxes above them that have lighted Red X's and Green Arrows that designate the direction of travel like you would see around a stadium or some large venue. Then you could use both HOT lanes for inbound traffic during morning rush hour and use both for outbound traffic during afternoon rush hour. At any rate, these would use the current median/busway and not widen the "footprint" of the road at all. It would be just like a busway without stations. The only widening that would be needed would be one extra lane in either direction just like the DOT wants.

As far as BRT vs. LRT you and I will have to agree to disagree. That argument is going nowhere. I do however like your idea of putting a transit line along Albemarle Rd...just not BRT. I think that the more transit, the better the city will be able to confront future challenges such as oil price spikes.

On to the West Corridor. Does everyone like the Streetcar option or would people prefer to see a designated ROW transit line such as CR/LRT/BRT?

[southslider]

^I personally think West Corridor should be a rapid streetcar. That is run in mixed traffic on Cedar and Morehead, where branching off the Center City streetcar line, but actually run semi-exclusive in its own lanes on Wilkinson to the Airport. That is to say, I don't think Wilkinson needs six lanes for motorists. But you still wouldn't have control gates anywhere on Wilkinson, just signals for intersections.

If light rail, I think the West Corridor should have a different alignment. I'd recommend branching off the existing LYNX and use Carson and Interstate ROW to Wilkinson. I also think then that the Southeast Corridor, if LRT, should instead follow the CSX ROW between the Pecan station and the planned BLE (Northeast Corridor). That way, West and Southeast would function as one line (just like South and Northeast) with overlapping service between Carson and 9th Street stations in Uptown. Since trains are moving the slowest within Uptown, it should be able to handle three-car trains with half the headways of outer branches.

Personally, I still think West should be rapid streetcar and Southeast BRT. But if both were to be LRT someday, I'd rather see alignments that facilitate West and Southeast functioning as one line and overlapping with the existing/extended LYNX line within Uptown. And if a rapid streetcar were built first, a semi-exclusive design on Wilkinson could be converted more easily to LRT. And with the LRT alignment I suggest, you could still retain the streetcar branch through Third Ward and Wesley Heights with transfers at Bryant Park to LRT.

[uptownliving]

I have never really liked the idea of a Street Car down Wilkinson.

In my dream transit world we could run a DMU from Gateway Station to the Airport with maybe a stop at Ashely Rd and then continue on to Gaston County with stops at Belmont, Cramerton, Gaston Memorial, and Downtown Gastonia.

In my dream dream world we could run LRT in exclusive ROW from Downtown to the Airport door. But I dont expect that to ever happen.

[cltbwimob]

^

I don't like the idea of streetcar either. I don't think that it should be a locally preferred alternative for a major arterial corridor because it will operate pretty much like bus service. It will be the only "Corridor" without a form of dedicated ROW transit. I am not saying that the city should abandon streetcars altogether. I would like to see the line to Elizabeth built.

I think that CATS should seriously consider LRT or Commuter Rail. If CATS did choose one of those, I think it would more than likely be commuter rail because the projected ridership numbers aren't all that great for the line, plus it would be much cheaper as the NS ROW already exists. In addition, there has already been talk of adding CR to Gastonia which I think has generally been accepted well although I do not have poll numbers to prove that assertion. If they did build commuter rail, it would be easy to build it in phases like they are for the purple line...maybe with phase 1 from the Gateway Station to the Airport with phase 2 extending to Gastonia which would be advantageouse over light rail.

LRT, however, does have the support of at least one member of the Airport Advisory Committee. In the June 2009 Minutes on the airport website, you can read the transcript of the dialogue between one of the members of AAC and a CATS official. The AAC member pressed the CATS official on why the West Corridor was a streetcar line and not LRT. It's been a while since I read it, but if I remember correctly, the AAC member had several questions which the CATS guy did not provide great answers. In the end I do remeber the AAc advisor saying essentially that CATS was stubborn and not very open to changes of a plan. The AAC official also informed the CATS official that CATS may be able to tap FAA funds to build such a line. The CATS guy was not aware of that. Hope for CR/LRT might not be lost.

[orulz]

From what I've heard, FAA funds and other airport revenue are usually only available to construct the portion of a transit line that is actually on airport property.

IMO light rail with a dedicated corridor would be best for this corridor. Also, in my opinion, you can't overestimate the draw of a direct rail connection to the terminal building. That is the ultimate in seamless transit. That isn't possible with commuter rail. You'd have to wait at the curb for a shuttle bus to take you to a commuter rail station, or else schlep all your suitcases a half mile to get there.

If light rail were chosen, there's no reason that the Norfolk Southern right of way couldn't be used. However, if you just stuck to the railroad all the way to gateway station you'd lose out on serving W. Morehead though, which is highly undesirable. But I see two ways around that: (1) Just take up some space on Morehead, and live with 1.5 miles of street running, or (2) use some of the old disused industrial railroad ROW's through the neighborhood. They are not wide (eyeballing it on Polaris, about 25') but should actually be just enough to squeeze in a double track LRT line.

Here is a map. All the areas highlighted in red would be within or along existing railroad ROW's. If the industrial rail ROWs worked out, you could do the whole thing with 2500 feet total of new ROW.

[southslider]

^I wonder if this AAC member would be willing to support a decent bus stop in the meantime at the Terminal. As it currently stands, Sprinter will soon provide improved service, yet its patrons are supposed to still wait at a dinky, hidden sign. Even the employee shuttle gets a covered bench (which by the way, I'll keep using to wait for the CATS bus until Jerry Orr himself comes out to tell me I can't). Improving this pithy stop would be the first sign that the Airport even cares about transit.

[kewlaidkiddd]

A few quick thoughts on this issue.

1) I have an idea elsewhere on the board about getting rid of 277 altogether and connecting Independence fully with Brookshire and then reconnecting John Belk with Charlottetowne to get this flow back going. John Belk's exit structure is just a complete mess in the morning and living on the eastside, I have actually switched from taking Belk to taking Brookshire in the mornings (The transition is much smoother with the exception of the large bump on the Brookshire/77 exit).

Now this really has to do with my other point - the fact that I am back to taking my car to work now. Part of this was due to my health recently, but also it has to do with the fact that I can be at work in 10-15 minutes now as opposed to taking the transit.

2) From where I live, in order for me to get to work in the morning from Commonwealth to Archdale, I have to hop on bus 17 at 7:10, then take that bus to uptown which arrives around 7:30. From there I have to take the Lightrail to Archdale. Generally I'm at work by 8:15. So currently this route takes about an hour.

I do believe that Light Rail would definitely need to be something considered first for at least along Independence. 17 and 9 buses are both full in the mornings and I generally stand on the 17 because there are so many folks. I recall a few years ago when I was carless and lived on South Tryon that the South Blvd Bus (I believe at that point and time it was bus 12 and 24) were always packed with folks. I rode a South Blvd route bus recently - after the light rail was in place - and it was nowhere near as full as it used to be. It seems that the lightrail is much more popular.

Getting this line down Independence would both ease up the time frame in which to get from East Side to Southwest side being that it is quicker, and it would also shrink down the bus routes in the area causing less busses to have to be on the road as well as clearing the roads and helping with pollution issues.

I've noted how that it was more plausible for a more northern line to be placed in before the Independence line - this is mainly to reduce traffic in the mornings I am guessing - but folks aren't going to be quick to jump onto using mass transit when they are already using there personal automobiles as it is. However already on the eastside the mass transit use is much greater and would benefit from the new lines much more.

[southslider]

Hypothetically, if Belk were removed, then East and West Charlotte could have their LRT lines linked via that path between Independence and Wilkinson. It's a neat idea, but since it would mean transferring at Stonewell to reach other Uptown stations, I'm still partial to my idea.

Again, my idea is to follow the CSX for the Southeast Corridor between Pecan and 9th stations, and follow Carson and the I-77/277 interchange between South End and Wilkinson for the West Corridor. That way, all corridors would serve all Uptown stations, or overlapping service between 9th and Carson.

For the West Corridor option, Carson is very wide and underutilized, in part because Carson used to function as part of the Old Independence. To turn from the LYNX line to Carson, you might either swing wide into space between Carson and Palmer east of Tryon. Otherwise, you could move the Carson station to Morehead to turn more directly onto Carson. Carson also provides a path to the I-77/277 interchange, a wide swath to snake through and reach Wilkinson on the opposite side of Belk. And obviously, Wilkinson is wide and could easily lose a travel lane in each direction.

For the Southeast Corridor option, the line (be it LRT or BRT) is already planned to be on the northside of Independence at Pecan. But rather than exit alongside the Charlottetowne ramp to access Uptown via CPCC (it's already on streetcar), you follow the CSX line, which touches the Family Dollar shopping center, the Barnhardt complex, City Yards in Belmont, and CATS properties separating First Ward from Optimist Park, all of which are ripe for redevelopment. This way too, you don't build a branch streetcar someday to Belmont but actually put it on a LYNX line. Plus, Optimist Park could see a station farther south than Parkwood and Brevard on this new routing, one serving Alpha Mill, Bloc 90, and development in-between.

The change in Southeast routing wouldn't hurt CPCC and Presby, as they would still be served via streetcar between Pecan and CTC. Likewise, the change in West Corridor routing wouldn't hurt Third Ward and Wesley Heights, if still served via streetcar branch between Trade (Gateway Village) and Wilkinson (Bryant Park).

Besides, streetcar is a long ride to the airport. I can see the piece along Wilkinson being built sooner as a rapid-streetcar line. And then, such tracks in an exclusive middle-lane on Wilkinson should be an easy conversion to LRT, while retaining the mixed-traffic portions on Cedar and Morehead as service between Uptown and Bryant Park.

[DEnd]

^

I am saying use the median for the HOT lanes...and make the lanes multi directional meaning put the little boxes above them that have lighted Red X's and Green Arrows that designate the direction of travel like you would see around a stadium or some large venue. Then you could use both HOT lanes for inbound traffic during morning rush hour and use both for outbound traffic during afternoon rush hour. At any rate, these would use the current median/busway and not widen the "footprint" of the road at all. It would be just like a busway without stations. The only widening that would be needed would be one extra lane in either direction just like the DOT wants.

As far as BRT vs. LRT you and I will have to agree to disagree. That argument is going nowhere. I do however like your idea of putting a transit line along Albemarle Rd...just not BRT. I think that the more transit, the better the city will be able to confront future challenges such as oil price spikes.

On to the West Corridor. Does everyone like the Streetcar option or would people prefer to see a designated ROW transit line such as CR/LRT/BRT?

[cltbwimob]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that CATS is hurting for money right now. As such extra lines are going to be delayed quite a bit. I also read in John Muth's presentation that if air quality does not soon improve (Aug 2010 I think) that not only will the area lose federal money for road projects, but transit money as well. With all this in mind, one solution that came to me was the possibility of creating a DMU line from the Airport to CPCC/Levine. The advantage of DMU is that it should be able to behave as sort of a hybrid LRT and CR. What I mean is that rather than using Push-Pull locomotives with 6 to 8 car trains, DMU trains can operate with 1 to 3 cars since each car runs under its own power. This means that they should be able to stop more quickly than a traditional CR system which allows more stations rather than the traditional stations separated by 2-5 miles. In the sense that it would have more stations it would act more like LRT. DMU, however, is still a form of commuter rail, and as such cold take advantage of lower costs of Commuter Rail. It would operate on shared CSX/NS ROWs. The DMU solution would probably be less expensive than the combined cost of the West Corridor SC and SE Corridor BRT, yet still retain the character of a rail line. I know at certain points, they would have to install double tracks which would drive the cost up some. I do think that the cost savings in not having to install double sets of in-street tracks along with electric lines on the west corridor alone might justify this entire "line". It would certainly save cost over LRT.

I want to hear what other people think though...Is this a good idea for a cash-strapped CATS?

By the way-God bless the victims of 9/11 and there families. May we never forget