Venue Tower at the BOB - 20 Monroe Live - House of Blues/Live Nation Venue

[GRDadof3]

There are lots of potential solutions:

1) He could ask one of the architects he has a relationship to put together a short list of architects with appropriate experience for the client and the architect to interview as potential joint venture design partners in the deal. Then he could have the best of both worlds: a local presence and experience.

2) He could tell a number of potential local architects that he would like to hire them but they must address the experience issue in an RFP - which would probably have the locals teaming up on their own with an architect having more specific experience. And, make a selection based on that.

3) Or, and this comes from a good friend of mine on the other side of this issue who posts on here from time to time, it's a lot like elective plastic surgery (it's not a matter of life or death if this project gets built or not - he's doing it for pleasure and profit): you go and sit down with the guy and talk with him about your nose and what you want it to look like, about his work and how he does it, maybe look at some before and after pictures...maybe you talk with three or four before you realize that none of them can or will guarantee an outcome. So how do you pick one? I know what I would do, but ultimately you roll your dice and you take your chances. Local or not. Experience or not.

The other subtext here is that somehow this could be magically picked off the shelf or properly generated in a week of hurried design. It's not the case. Whatever alternative is selected in the short term will not be what the building looks like - the Fulton and Division project for example - for any number of reasons...cost, market, zoning, etc.

Come on Daddy, you know that I know what business practices are in my industry perfectly well. And, while comp design happens, it's not the norm and it shouldn't be the norm.

I do agree that for the majority of projects, like bank branches and schools and retail stores and churches, yes they are done by the usual RFP (show us what you've done, who you are and what you are capable of). But an urban formatted mixed-use high-rise?

But otherwise I disagree that this is like getting a nose job, or buying a car, or buying a hamburger. A poorly designed project of this magnitude could literally sink it. Since I come from the business side, and you from the design side, we will probably have to agree to disagree. Agreed?

[Ted]

I do agree that for the majority of projects, like bank branches and schools and retail stores and churches, yes they are done by the usual RFP (show us what you've done, who you are and what you are capable of). But an urban formatted mixed-use high-rise?

But otherwise I disagree that this is like getting a nose job, or buying a car, or buying a hamburger. A poorly designed project of this magnitude could literally sink it. Since I come from the business side, and you from the design side, we will probably have to agree to disagree. Agreed?

This project ain't that tough or that big a deal. A local firm could do it and do it well if given the time and the resources.

You have the benefit of knowing what I do to a degree. I do not know that about you. But understand that I run a business and have all the responsibilities of any business owner. Design is what I sell. Giving design away for free is stupid. Every day of the week, you get what you pay for. I'm sure Mr. Gilmore will.

Agree to disagree.

[NorthEnder]

In our industry we have to come up with solutions, and bid on potential work. We get the work maybe 10%-15% of the time. We spend countless hours "trying" to get work, but if we bid something, and don't get it, we don't complain.

I don't understand why the design industry is any different. If many firms want the work, why don't they come up with some concepts and present it to the owner?

If i'm the owner, I don't want to pay some guy to come up with something I hate. I want to see it first.

[joeDowntown]

Not trying to get into the frackis here, just an inquisitive question. If I were in Gilmore's position (and I'm definitely not and wanted to "test drive" some architectural firms for ideas, what is the cost? I assume it is substantially less than the firm that is actually awarded the contract (as I assume a whole lot of time is not spent on the nitty gritty (engineering, electrical, etc. etc. etc).

Is it safe to say that for a project the size of Gilmore's plans, it would cost $50,000 to get serious designs? Am I way high or way low?

I don't understand how it all works but I have always wondered (kind of like GRDad mentioned earlier with the JW, I saw multiple detailed designs by different firms and don't know how much time / money would have been put into these).

I always assumed that a set of architects would be chosen on their existing portfolio, a stipend would be given to all chosen firms to design something based on a design doc, and then the final architect would receive full fees for refining and finishing the design.

Joe

This project ain't that tough or that big a deal. A local firm could do it and do it well if given the time and the resources.

You have the benefit of knowing what I do to a degree. I do not know that about you. But understand that I run a business and have all the responsibilities of any business owner. Design is what I sell. Giving design away for free is stupid. Every day of the week, you get what you pay for. I'm sure Mr. Gilmore will.

Agree to disagree.

[GRDadof3]

This project ain't that tough or that big a deal. A local firm could do it and do it well if given the time and the resources.

You have the benefit of knowing what I do to a degree. I do not know that about you. But understand that I run a business and have all the responsibilities of any business owner. Design is what I sell. Giving design away for free is stupid. Every day of the week, you get what you pay for. I'm sure Mr. Gilmore will.

Agree to disagree.

Sorry, didn't mean to say that you did not have to handle the business end of things.

I think the Gilmore site is going to be pretty tough to make it an outstanding design. The site is not very big, yet he wants to get retail, an entertainment venue, a parking ramp, a hotel/condo tower, and a "piazza" plaza all onto the site. I would rate that as a pretty high level of difficulty. Plus, I would guess Huntington will have some say as to how much of their building is blocked by this new tower. I can't see Gilmore building right up to the old facade of The BOB (maybe, maybe not). Anyone know what his budget is on this?

[AlexPKeaton]

Just to clarify, a design concept is not a fully ready-to-build plan. It may seem obvious, but I think part of the confusion comes from what's free and what you pay for. Again, in my case, we'll gather basic requirements from an initial meeting, which is free. We can then present a client with a proposal which he could take to any number of other firms to bid on. What we won't do, however, is include actual design comps in that proposal.

The design process--on the web at least, but I suspect in architecture as well--is iterative. You throw something out there to see what the client likes and dislikes. You go from there and work collaboratively until a final design is agreed upon. Design competitions don't include any of that back and forth until a winner is selected. Given an existing portfolio, and a firm you're comfortable working with, I don't think you need comps in order to select a firm.

For a high profile project with a huge potential payoff it may be worth it to some freebie work. That would have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. For firms local to GR, maybe this is a big enough deal to justify that.

[Ted]

Not trying to get into the frackis here, just an inquisitive question. If I were in Gilmore's position (and I'm definitely not and wanted to "test drive" some architectural firms for ideas, what is the cost? I assume it is substantially less than the firm that is actually awarded the contract (as I assume a whole lot of time is not spent on the nitty gritty (engineering, electrical, etc. etc. etc).

Is it safe to say that for a project the size of Gilmore's plans, it would cost $50,000 to get serious designs? Am I way high or way low?

I don't understand how it all works but I have always wondered (kind of like GRDad mentioned earlier with the JW, I saw multiple detailed designs by different firms and don't know how much time / money would have been put into these).

I always assumed that a set of architects would be chosen on their existing portfolio, a stipend would be given to all chosen firms to design something based on a design doc, and then the final architect would receive full fees for refining and finishing the design.

Joe

There's nothing unreasonable in what you've written. It can work the way you've defined it, among many others - some of which I've identified previously.

[EGR-ARCHI]

In our industry we have to come up with solutions, and bid on potential work. We get the work maybe 10%-15% of the time. We spend countless hours "trying" to get work, but if we bid something, and don't get it, we don't complain.

I don't understand why the design industry is any different. If many firms want the work, why don't they come up with some concepts and present it to the owner?

If i'm the owner, I don't want to pay some guy to come up with something I hate. I want to see it first.

That is why you hire an architect and work with him/her to develop a solution that you like. I am sure that you complain about not getting jobs, your complaints just never leave the office. The work you do while putting a bid together has a value as does the work we do when we are designing. Architects should not get into the business of giving away design services. We have entered competitions for projects that clearly outline expectations and usually have some kind of stipend associated with them. We put together proposals the same as you put together bids. Putting together a proposal for a project takes a good bit of time and resources and we do it understanding that we may not get the job. You are not comparing apples to apples. If the potential client asked you and 3 other companies to start pouring foundations and maybe erect some of the steel and when you were done he would pick the best company to complete the job, would you go for it?

Does anyone know which Architectural firms showed up to this event?

Edited August 25, 2008 by EGR-ARCHI

[GRDadof3]

That is why you hire an architect and work with him/her to develop a solution that you like. I am sure that you complain about not getting jobs, your complaints just never leave the office. The work you do while putting a bid together has a value as does the work we do when we are designing. Architects should not get into the business of giving away design services. We have entered competitions for projects that clearly outline expectations and usually have some kind of stipend associated with them. We put together proposals the same as you put together bids. Putting together a proposal for a project takes a good bit of time and resources and we do it understanding that we may not get the job. You are not comparing apples to apples. If the potential client asked you and 3 other companies to start pouring foundations and maybe erect some of the steel and when you were done he would pick the best company to complete the job, would you go for it?

Does anyone know which Architectural firms showed up to this event?

I know of one, but I'm not sure how much of this charrette is public or not.

Again, Kudos to Gilmore for looking locally. It might be a risk on a lot of people's parts, but I think it will be pretty cool if it all comes together and gets built.

[EGR-ARCHI]

I know of one, but I'm not sure how much of this charrette is public or not.

Do you know how many firms showed up, and if they were all local?

[PR-15]

I originally stated a range of $10,000-50,000 as a tool to get a peak at some initial design concepts taking the actual site into consideration...not final plans. I never suggested it was wise to pay $50,000 to a firm and then hate the design and then be starting from scratch.

What I meant to suggest was that it would be a wise investment to select 2 or 3 firms to provide concepts...and pay them a stipend of $6,000-10,000 each for a good look at their concepts (again, concepts). This $30,000 investment on a multi-million dollar project is prudent to get the crucial design elements started and is also more fair to the firms.

Agree to disagree...but it's interesting to note that those speaking against the charrette system are actually making a living in the industry, but it would seem that most of the people posting opinions on the side of "compete at any cost" are not actually working in the field of architecture.

I'd have to side with the design professionals on this one and not armchair quarterbacks.

Edited August 25, 2008 by PR-15

[GRDadof3]

Do you know how many firms showed up, and if they were all local?

Nope, don't know.

Armchair quarterbacks? Who me?

[Rizzo]

I don't know how this game is played. However, my opinion is that in any sort of work be it creativity or straight labor you have a choice in the matter. You choose your clients, not the other way around.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Rizzo

[EGR-ARCHI]

Nope, don't know.

Armchair quarterbacks? Who me?

Any idea of what hotel if any that he has spoken to? Theatre chain? It is a movie theatre not a performance..right?

[GRDadof3]

Any idea of what hotel if any that he has spoken to? Theatre chain? It is a movie theatre not a performance..right?

No. And if I did, I don't think I would be comfortable saying yet. I believe it's going to be a "House of Blues" or a black-box type performance theater, from what he mentioned at the City Commission meeting (and maybe in one of the articles?).

[Ted]

I know of one, but I'm not sure how much of this charrette is public or not.

If I guess correctly, will you confirm?

[GRDadof3]

If I guess correctly, will you confirm?

Wouldn't that be the same as saying who it is? No, I can neither confirm or deny your honor.

[PR-15]

Armchair quarterbacks? Who me?

I'm not saying you don't have a nice tight spiral on the deep passes...sorry...did that sound weird??...cause it felt weird typing it.

[EGR-ARCHI]

Wouldn't that be the same as saying who it is? No, I can neither confirm or deny your honor.

Now how can we have a good old fashion witch burning if you don't hand us some witches!!

[GRDadof3]

I'm not saying you don't have a nice tight spiral on the deep passes...sorry...did that sound weird??...cause it felt weird typing it.

Thanks! I think...

This topic sure has gotten a lot of activity for not a lot of news.

[Veloise]

KIAS!

[MuskeMI]

From the sidelines, this is a very interesting back-and-forth as I work in a (wholely unrelated) field which has, for 100 years plus, given its product away practically for free. In the 21st century we've tried to get compensation for our services, and found out that when you give something away for so long, no one is willing to pay for it. Crappy situation we've gotten ourselves into - but we don't have the luxury (like an architect) of giving a little tease for little to no money and getting big bux later.

[EGR-ARCHI]

From the sidelines, this is a very interesting back-and-forth as I work in a (wholely unrelated) field which has, for 100 years plus, given its product away practically for free. In the 21st century we've tried to get compensation for our services, and found out that when you give something away for so long, no one is willing to pay for it. Crappy situation we've gotten ourselves into - but we don't have the luxury (like an architect) of giving a little tease for little to no money and getting big bux later.

All things being relative, I wouldn't say that we get BIG BUCKS, although I wish we did.

[wingbert]

... Plus, I would guess Huntington will have some say as to how much of their building is blocked by this new tower...

Wellllll... Huntington had the chance to move to a nice new building of their own on Fulton next to the river. They chose to stay where they are. I say TS Huntington. You made your choice and that choice carried inherent risks. Wasn't Gilmore talking about this project at that time?

As for the other hot topic in this thread. There are a whole host of service-based companies whose product is intellectual capital - ad agencies, web developers, architects, pr firms, etc. There will always be customers who try to get as much for free as possible and these companies will always face the dilemna of how much to give away. How it's handled is up to the individual organization, which makes its decision based on their own risk/reward model. The comment about you choosing your clients not the other way around is spot on.

There's my two coppers, for what it's worth.

[NorthCoast]

I know of one, but I'm not sure how much of this charrette is public or not.

Again, Kudos to Gilmore for looking locally. It might be a risk on a lot of people's parts, but I think it will be pretty cool if it all comes together and gets built.

I also know of one but it may be the same firm that GRDad is aware of. As he stated since the confidentiality of this entire process isn't known...can't really say much more than what I already have.