Carroll A. Campbell Jr. U.S. Courthouse

[westendlvn]

Thanks gsupstate - that does help clarify the question. I agree that cheap knockoffs really don't cut it. But still, I think we are probably coming from totally different camps. Which is the beauty of this site - where we can still be friends.

When I think of our city's architectural achievements I think of the Poinsett and the Liberty Building. I guess I feel that modern architectural movements go out of style so quickly. What is cool today is "dated looking" tomorrow. Where as traditional architecture will always look good, because it makes sense to us with our own human scale and proportion. Personally, nothing inspires me more than seeing a well made traditional bldg. It is one of the most beautiful sites to me.

Edited March 24, 2009 by westendlvn

[gs3]

Thanks gsupstate - that does help clarify the question. I agree that cheap knockoffs really don't cut it. But still, I think we are probably coming from totally different camps. Which is the beauty of this site - where we can still be friends.

When I think of our city's architectural achievements I think of the Poinsett and the Liberty Building. I guess I feel that modern architectural movements go out of style so quickly. What is cool today is "dated looking" tomorrow. Where as traditional architecture will always look good, because it makes sense to us with our own human scale and proportion. Personally, nothing inspires me more than seeing a well made traditional bldg. It is one of the most beautiful sites to me.

Excellent points.

My only concern is your next to last sentence which I bolded in your quote. From what history has shown, the government and "well made" do not seem to go together. If this were Four Seasons Hotel or Ritz Carlton, I'd be all for traditional because I believe those companies would build a well made traditional building. IMO, being a government project, it would only be an attempt at a well made traditional building. I love traditional buildings like the Poinsett, they had a greatness of detail that current classic architecture seems to be lacking. Totally with you on that and I see your point.

[MAJIKMAN]

After reading all of the post, I stumble upon this article written in an online Nashville paper. Telling of how some projects still were not going to be built. Here is the site: http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2009/2/1...timulus_package

Edited March 24, 2009 by MAJIKMAN

[MAJIKMAN]

I maybe wrong. I just saw a list of cities that are getting or have had new courthouses completed.: http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentVi...ic.jsp&P=PM

[GvilleSC]

Columbia's says "completed". Was it a new construction? and what does it look like?

[gman430]

Currently, the federal courthouse for Greenville is in the 2011/2012 budget to get built. You can see the time table list here: http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_...RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf Lindsey Graham and Jim Demint though are trying to get funding now so construction can start immediately.

Edited March 24, 2009 by citylife

[RiverWalker]

After reading all of the post, I stumble upon this article written in an online Nashville paper. Telling of how some projects still were not going to be built. Here is the site: http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2009/2/1...timulus_package

I like the looks of what apparently is the design proposed for Nashville. A circular building with a dome, like the one pictured in the Nashville Post article, would be an awesome replacement for the three-story box that is occupied currently by Agfa HealthCare.

A little history on 10 South Academy St., the current Agfa location. It was a BellSouth facility until 1997, when Sterling Diagnostic Imaging (spun off from DuPont) moved in. I believe that Sterling may have obtained some incentives from the city to choose the Greenville site over another location in Charlotte. Agfa Corp. took over the building when it acquired Sterling in 1999, along with an x-ray film coating plant near Cedar Mountain, NC. (Agfa closed that plant in 2002 and dismantled it in 2006. When DuPont completes remediating contaminants on the site, 440 acres will be donated to become the final addition to the DuPont State Forest.)

[gman430]

I like the Nashville building too. It brings traditional and innovative architecture together. The dome part is innovative while the highrise part is traditional. Some people want traditional architecture while others want innovative. I say give them both. That is interesting regarding the history of the site. I remember going to Dupont State Park in the late 90's and one of my friends telling me that the plant would shut down in a few years because of companies switching from film to digital on computers. I didn't realize the land would be donated to the state park. That's great news to hear.

Edited March 24, 2009 by citylife

[RiverWalker]

I like the Nashville building too. It brings traditional and innovative architecture together. The dome part is innovative while the highrise part is traditional. Some people want traditional architecture while others want innovative. I say give them both.

I couldn't tell from the picture whether the high-rise was part of the plan or not. I finally concluded that it wasn't - way too costly and way too much floor space.

Meanwhile, I have heard information to the effect that NO decision has been made nor funds allocated for the Greenville courthouse. Some speculate that the Mayor, along with and city and state leaders, is merely trying to pressure the government to decide now so as to take advantage of stimulus money. With so much money going into the new Homeland Security headquarters, as was reported in the Nashville paper, it's still hard to believe that there will be any left for Greenville. Keep in mind, too, that the new administration is still making political appointments throughout the government bureaucracy, and it probably will take some time for them to get down to the GSA Properties level.

I remember going to DuPont State Park in the late 90's and one of my friends telling me that the plant would shut down in a few years because of companies switching from film to digital on computers. I didn't realize the land would be donated to the state park. That's great news to hear.

There were a few bumps along the way, like when it looked like the Little River tract (including three stunning waterfalls - High Falls, Triple Falls and Bridal Veil Falls - all featured in the movie "Last of the Mohicans") was going to be developed instead of being preserved, but thankfully it all got sorted out.

[Greenville]

It will be interesting to see what kind of design is proposed - and ultimately chosen - for Greenville's federal courthouse. I am curious to see just how ambitious and forward-thinking the decision makers will be. I fear that they will say, "Oh, we're just little 'ol Greenville and don't need anything too fancy or ornate like those 'big cities,'" when they SHOULD be saying, "We're Greenville, a wonderful, progressive, growing, and forward-thinking city which deserves to have an attractive, dramatic landmark of a structure on this site."

We'll see...

Edited March 24, 2009 by Greenville

[distortedlogic]

I couldn't tell from the picture whether the high-rise was part of the plan or not. I finally concluded that it wasn't - way too costly and way too much floor space.

Actually I think it includes everything you see in the picture. It does not appear to be more than a few floors, it is just that the architecture forces a taller perspective. But I would certainly go with something like this. Anything that has some character and looks as though it took some thought and detail. I just don't like glass or brick boxes that look as though they were designed by a 7 year-old on a napkin.

But I agree that Gville would most likely be waaaay down on the list, and it doesn't seem like the courthouse is very shovel ready to me. And personally I would be willing to wait a couple more years if it resulted in a higher quality building, rather than to rush just to throw up an eyesore.

[Spartan]

Its unfortunate that the federal government is not known for innovative architecture, at least not outside of DC. Hopefully we'll get a rendering for the courthouse that will be pleasing. I'll wait for that until I opine too much... until then I'll just remain optimistic.

Columbia's says "completed". Was it a new construction? and what does it look like?

To my knowledge Columbia's isn't new. At least not recently. Does anyone know how long this program has been around?

[GvilleSC]

But I agree that Gville would most likely be waaaay down on the list, and it doesn't seem like the courthouse is very shovel ready to me. And personally I would be willing to wait a couple more years if it resulted in a higher quality building, rather than to rush just to throw up an eyesore.

To my knowledge, Greenville's Federal Courthouse is WAY too small. I thought I remember reading that they have to rent space all over the CBD for adequate space, which was wasting money and continues to each year they put this off... I'm sure other Cities are in similar situations, but I wouldn't down play Greenville's need for a new facility.

[distortedlogic]

To my knowledge, Greenville's Federal Courthouse is WAY too small. I thought I remember reading that they have to rent space all over the CBD for adequate space, which was wasting money and continues to each year they put this off... I'm sure other Cities are in similar situations, but I wouldn't down play Greenville's need for a new facility.

Along these lines, I think the original plans for a new courthouse called for about 250,000 sq ft; but this was about 10 years ago now. I would think this would have to be revised by now. Perhaps there is a need for more space than was originally called for. It would also seem a waste to build a shiny new building only to find it was already too small ( kinda like how the DOT widens roads the where they needed to be long before... ).

BTW, what are the specs on the current Fed Ct House?

[krazeeboi]

Columbia's says "completed". Was it a new construction? and what does it look like?

The Matthew J. Perry Federal Courthouse was completed in 2004.

[GvilleSC]

^^Thanks!

I really fear, that with all the land at the AFGA site, they'll setup the building like Columbia's. I'd rather not have expansive green space that will never be used. It'd be fine if it were along the riverfront greenway or a part of Heritage Green, but Academy Street's width really demands the building to hug the street.

[krazeeboi]

I'm wondering if there are any safety concerns or things of that nature that prevent federal courthouses from being truly urban buildings, especially in low-density locations like downtown Greenville (and Columbia).

[GvilleSC]

I'm wondering if there are any safety concerns or things of that nature that prevent federal courthouses from being truly urban buildings, especially in low-density locations like downtown Greenville (and Columbia).

Dunno. Greenville's current federal courthouse, though built a while back, is extremely urban. However, not until several years ago did it even have bollards in front of it. I believe the City had to pay for installation if the government provided the concrete barriers. So, maybe they aren't too worried about safety if, for decades, nothing separated the building from the street than the six inch rise of the sidewalk. ??

Edited March 25, 2009 by GvilleSC

[krazeeboi]

Interesting. Well, in Columbia's case, the "campus-like" setting can somewhat be forgiven since the courthouse located in a residential neighborhood about a block or two away from the governor's mansion. But if the Greenville courthouse is going to be located on a major or semi-major thoroughfare, then it should be pulled up to the street and constructed in as urban a fashion as possible.

[whitehourseview]

I'm wondering if there are any safety concerns or things of that nature that prevent federal courthouses from being truly urban buildings, especially in low-density locations like downtown Greenville (and Columbia).

Since the Oklahoma City terrorist attack on the Murrah Federal Building, new Federal buildings, especially courthouses, have had a lot more restrictions on how they are built, especially regarding built in safety measures. Since 9/11, the impetus to enforce those regulations for newer Federal buildings has really stepped up too.

I think you could find online sources about those kind of regulations - set back from roads, the amount of glass used, the type of construction materials, access to underground parking garages, etc.

The General Service Administration, the Federal agency that would be responsible for building a new court house has labyrinthine regulations for these type of things anyhow.

[David Murphy]

There better be some kick-ass architecture to make up for the lame height and location. Though, I'm not sure that firm will deliver. http://www.neal-prince.com/

That's not very polite. ICAR Collaboration Center not kick-ass enough for you? http://www.cvel.clemson.edu/images/Campus_...Tech-Center.jpg

And besides NPA are the local architects, they aren't the lead design architects.

Some light reading if you are interested:

Whole Building Design Guide-Federal Courthouses: http://www.wbdg.org/design/federal_courthouse.php

U.S. Courts Design Guide: http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/GSAMAN/courts.pdf

[GvilleSC]

That's not very polite. ICAR Collaboration Center not kick-ass enough for you? http://www.cvel.clemson.edu/images/Campus_...Tech-Center.jpg

Am I not allowed to have opinions? I have reservations about what they'll design. I hope that a design will be produced to put to rest any reservations that I may have, but only time will tell.

[David Murphy]

Am I not allowed to have opinions?

Of course your are, that's not the point. The art of architecture is all opinions. Criticizing the work is completely fair game, not the artist. They've won enough design awards, they don't have anything to prove to anyone.

And, again, they are not designing the building.

Unfortunately, they are spending money on the old courthouse and not on the new courthouse: http://www.gsa.gov/graphics/pbs/American_R...nt_Act_2009.pdf

Edited April 2, 2009 by crowsfan

[distortedlogic]

Sorry to bring up all these "old" threads, but I was wanting some updates. Anybody hear anything more on this since the new location was announced? Is the 5 storey building for the AGFA site still a go (keeping my fingers crossed they changed their minds!)?

[gman430]

The city of Greenville has announced plans to acquire a site for a new federal courthouse in downtown. The 204,000-square-foot building will be located at the intersection of East North, North Irvine, East Coffee and North Spring streets where the large parking lot next to the Palmetto Bank headquarters currently sits. The General Services Administration will begin work on the design phase of the building later this fall. Construction is slated to begin in 2013: http://www.wyff4.com/news/22930394/detail.html