What does downtown Norfolk need?

[brikkman]

Regardless of what's been said... I love Charlotte... I'd love for Norfolk to become more like it... but anyways...

How come there's never been discussion about getting a NASCAR stadium built somewhere in the area. Daytona is a beach town similar to VB and it's speedway brings in insane amounts of people & money. I am not a fan of the sport in any way, I think it's insane personally, but, it seems like southeastern virginia is a great place for something like this to cater to all the fans throughout the state & NC....

I realize norfolk has no space for this, but I'm speaking on a regional ideal... but there's gotta be plenty of space out near suffolk.

[urbanlife]

actually, if you guys want to compare Norfolk to another city, I would suggest Jacksonville over Charlotte because Jacksonville has much more in common. Both of them are harbor cities, they are about the same in population (counting metro size, Jacksonville is mostly an incorporated county, thus making it much larger that Norfolk, and they both have similar tourist and trade industries.

Of course there are differences between the cities, a few things that Norfolk is excelling at, but overall, the city would make for a great comparison.

Also another thing would be nice to see is Norfolk to do a full urban study of the city and figure out target areas to focus on. From this, they could begin to connect neighborhoods with streetcars that run from the neighborhoods to downtown, making the city more centrally focused.

Also, the St Paul Quadrant needs to be seen as an extension of downtown rather than a redevelopment of an inner neighborhood.

[varider]

Guys what is so bad about developing St. Paul's Quadrant with the new high density housing allowing the subsidized housing folks to stay there and one violation of the law and they are out. They still contribute to the tax base (barely) and it will increase the population of the CBD by far. I really see no problem with it. Companies will not be afraid to relocate just because they would work near poor people.

[mistermetaj]

Perhaps Downtown Norfolk needs less classicist residents / champions. There should is a place for low income / workforce housing in every downtown area. The city just needs to build it correctly. And please, do not let Charlotte serve as an example of what Norfolk can become. Norfolk is already prettier, more interesting and has a better urban texture and fabric than Charlotte. Look to places like Baltimore and Boston for inspiration.

From my perspective, Norfolk needs a larger downtown workforce. Everything else will fall into place. It doesn't need to suck the d&%^ of national retail and chain restaurants

[mistermetaj]

Guys what is so bad about developing St. Paul's Quadrant with the new high density housing allowing the subsidized housing folks to stay there and one violation of the law and they are out. They still contribute to the tax base (barely) and it will increase the population of the CBD by far. I really see no problem with it. Companies will not be afraid to relocate just because they would work near poor people.

[varider]

Well I'm not afraid of poor people in the projects. Walk through center city Philadelphia and that is all you will see. They have one of the greatest downtowns for shopping, businesses, and eating on the East Coast. As the plan is now their will be 2000+ homes. Only 600 of them will be subsidized housing. That's not bad in my book.

[brikkman]

I personally think its a useless argument to have. Norfolk is looking to expand their urban core (which makes sense) while maintaining its public housing, but have decaying unconnected neighborhoods that need an overhaul. There are few mixed neighborhoods in Norfolk, because we are a city of extremes. We have the poor and the very well off. What DT needs is st. quadrant to attract the amenities most bigger cities have. We have been saying for years, thats the make or break it of DT. The fact that they are holding meetings to the future of the area with residents says "DOOMDOOMDOOM". I am not saying kicked them out the city, what I am saying is, revamp, revitalize and connect your neighborhoods and leave that area for urban core development. That does not mean do not include affordable housing, mix use, etc... All I am saying is, do not make that entire area about that (which they seem to be contemplating). I still wonder how the radassion hotel got itis placement, what was the thought behind that?

[brikkman]

Well I'm not afraid of poor people in the projects. Walk through center city Philadelphia and that is all you will see. They have one of the greatest downtowns for shopping, businesses, and eating on the East Coast. As the plan is now their will be 2000+ homes. Only 600 of them will be subsidized housing. That's not bad in my book.

[varider]

Yeah, I understand that's "word on the street" but personally I believe it's a ploy by the city to keep NIMBYS quiet for the time being..Even if you look at the tacky plan they composed there is no single family residential housing.. Most of the developments are mixed use about 10-15 stories high.. I think that would be awesome. I really don't think Norfolk is going to revert back to Broad Creek style housing.. THIS IS RIGHT NEXT TO OUR CBD! I don't care how idiotic city council can be at some times, they aren't THAT dumb. I can almost guarantee this will be a surprisingly urban development..

[urbanlife]

I would agree with you about having low income in Norfolk if Norfolk had a much bigger and establised downtown. As it is, Norfolk has a hell of a hard time attracting moderate income residents to live downtown. It is a very small downtown and is having a hard time drawing amenities in to attract more residents such as better restaurants and retail. To make a focal point of DT like ST. P Quadrant 1/3 or 1/2 low income will be to the detriment of the city. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a place for low income residents (that is a separate conversation about all downtowns), but I am saying that now is not the time for Nofolk to have such a large amount in such a small area at this time. Once Norfolk is truly established, we can care more about retaining low income and subsidized residents, but if that become important now, Norfolk will grow at a snails place, especially in bringing in higher paying residences and companies. No company or middle class workers wants to live among low income or subsidized housing. It has a stigma and safety issues, some deserved and not deserved, and Norfolk really can't take that risk right now while trying to expand their downtown.

[rusthebuss]

Regardless of what's been said... I love Charlotte... I'd love for Norfolk to become more like it... but anyways...

How come there's never been discussion about getting a NASCAR stadium built somewhere in the area. Daytona is a beach town similar to VB and it's speedway brings in insane amounts of people & money. I am not a fan of the sport in any way, I think it's insane personally, but, it seems like southeastern virginia is a great place for something like this to cater to all the fans throughout the state & NC....

I realize norfolk has no space for this, but I'm speaking on a regional ideal... but there's gotta be plenty of space out near suffolk.

[virginia pe]

Before RIR was redone, we had a chance to have Nascar here in Isle of Wight. I'm not a Nascar fan but i think it still would have been a good thing to have. Vabeach residents cried about traffic.....I swear Vabeach has really killed this area in a lot of things with their whining. How the hell is traffic in Isle of wight going to affect Vabeach residents....They are IDIOTS!

[mikeas]

I've seen a couple mentions of a downtown bowling alley. If the rumor is true a boutique bowling alley is being constructed in the first floor of Montgomery Square on the corner of High and Effingham in Old Town Portsmouth. Considering the ease of transportation between downtown Norfolk and Portsmouth I'd consider that close enough.

[mistermetaj]

Currently St Paul Quadrant has about 618 units for low income housing, which we all can see is being used at a very low density. Norfolk needs that land to almost double its size for downtown.

In reference to density, I am using what I know, which is the Pearl District here in Portland.

The Pearl district is one of the wealthiest dense neighborhoods in Portland and is 30% low income and affordable housing.

http://www.neighborhoodnotes.com/nw/pearl_...pearl_district/

Currently (roughly...these are stats that are about a year old and new buildings have come on line since then), the Pearl District has 3500 housing units, about 1000 of those are low income or affordable housing. The amount of land that is the Pearl District is 127 acres and the St Paul Quadrant is about 100 acres.

If the St Paul Quadrant was to do something like this to increase its downtown size, it could easily retain the same number of units as well as possibly increase the number of units...does this mean that everyone currently living in St Paul will have a place to live within the new development? No, there will be displacement, there will people who dont want to live in such a dense area, as well as other reasons...but it would be a good way to replace the number of low income units from what is currently there, mix it with affordable housing units, then mix in higher cost units and office space. Plus there is the important fact that this would then be able to reconnect with the downtown better, as well as establishing a better city grid.

[mistermetaj]

Well I'm not afraid of poor people in the projects. Walk through center city Philadelphia and that is all you will see. They have one of the greatest downtowns for shopping, businesses, and eating on the East Coast. As the plan is now their will be 2000+ homes. Only 600 of them will be subsidized housing. That's not bad in my book.

[urbanlife]

Your post says low income and affordable housing. Those are two different things completely. I am willing to be that the majority of that 33% is affordable, not low income housing. Affordable is marketed towards the working class and lower middle class to middle class. Low income is different.

Portland is a well established bustling city that is nationally and possibly internationally known. It has a strong base population that lives in an urban setting. Unfortunately, DT Norfolk is still very small and is struggling to attract residents. I do not see how the promise of living among low income residents is going to attract people to live in SPQ. Remember, Norfolk is attempting to bring people from the suburbs into urban living.

If DT had a large population of urban dwellers, then I could understand incorporating low income housing. That just isn't the case with Norfolk. You cannot compare DT Norfolk to Portland the way you did there.

As for being a wealthy area, that just means there are people with enough money to compensate for the population that don't have enough money. As it stands right now, DT cannot attract a major retail brand (Dillards is not a major chain IMO) or restaurant. Until the average earning of the area increases, that trend is going to remain, and TC and Lynnhaven mall will be the ones bringing in the national retailers.

Also, as it stands now, SPQ is guaranteed about 1000 low income residents (already live there and want to stay) and 0 middle, upper middle, and upper income residents. I am curious to see how DT Norfolk is going to market this space to the other residents they want.

[jeffconn]

How come there's never been discussion about getting a NASCAR stadium built somewhere in the area. Daytona is a beach town similar to VB and it's speedway brings in insane amounts of people & money. I am not a fan of the sport in any way, I think it's insane personally, but, it seems like southeastern virginia is a great place for something like this to cater to all the fans throughout the state & NC....

I realize norfolk has no space for this, but I'm speaking on a regional ideal... but there's gotta be plenty of space out near suffolk.

[skylinefan]

Actually a little back story on Portland, it wasnt that long ago that this city was nothing more than a blue collar lumber town. In the past 20 years the city has made drastic changes to the city and the migration of people from outside of the city and state have helped produce that...20 years ago, Portland was nothing more that the city that was south of Seattle. Growing up on the east coast, I knew nothing about this city...now it is seen as one of the leading cities in green development and mass transit and smart growth.

The Pearl District was nothing more than a dead industrial area in the late 90s, which is why I was comparing it to St Paul Quadrant. Both areas have an almost clean slate to work with. As for low income and affordable housing, there is a difference between the two, and the Pearl District is about half and half with those 1000 units. Which would mean about 500 units for low income housing...so it is true to what I said in my last post, not everyone would be able to move back for a number of reasons, but many would be able to return.

Any new development that happens in St Paul will have to cater to wealthier people because the cost of construction is so high...that is just the way of life in the building world.

As for attracting major chains, that I am on the fence about. It would be much more important for the city to focus on the start up businesses and help smaller companies become bigger companies and stores. As for attracting large chains, that is a marketing thing. For those chains they are looking at the numbers which say Virginia Beach is the main city in the region because it has the highest population. The town center was designed to attracted this type of business...there is nothing saying Norfolk cant do the same thing.

If Norfolk thinks the importance to competing is attracting residents from other parts of Hampton Roads, then they will probably continue to play second city to VB, but if they really want to compete, then they will have to look outside of the metro for attention. And they will have to look at St Paul as an extension to downtown, and treat it as such.

The city is moving in the right direction with the addition of light rail, they just need to continue with that kind of forward thinking throughout the rest of the city. When looking at the city, it is important not to focus on what is there, but rather what could be there. We are always capable of changing the urban landscape, a crime ridden neighborhood today could become the next hotspot for home redevelopment and trendy shops in its commercial area....looking at the changes Portland has made is some of its worst neighborhoods, Norfolk is in line to have the chance to make much of these same changes.

[vtfan18]

Actually a little back story on Portland, it wasnt that long ago that this city was nothing more than a blue collar lumber town. In the past 20 years the city has made drastic changes to the city and the migration of people from outside of the city and state have helped produce that...20 years ago, Portland was nothing more that the city that was south of Seattle. Growing up on the east coast, I knew nothing about this city...now it is seen as one of the leading cities in green development and mass transit and smart growth.

The Pearl District was nothing more than a dead industrial area in the late 90s, which is why I was comparing it to St Paul Quadrant. Both areas have an almost clean slate to work with. As for low income and affordable housing, there is a difference between the two, and the Pearl District is about half and half with those 1000 units. Which would mean about 500 units for low income housing...so it is true to what I said in my last post, not everyone would be able to move back for a number of reasons, but many would be able to return.

Any new development that happens in St Paul will have to cater to wealthier people because the cost of construction is so high...that is just the way of life in the building world.

As for attracting major chains, that I am on the fence about. It would be much more important for the city to focus on the start up businesses and help smaller companies become bigger companies and stores. As for attracting large chains, that is a marketing thing. For those chains they are looking at the numbers which say Virginia Beach is the main city in the region because it has the highest population. The town center was designed to attracted this type of business...there is nothing saying Norfolk cant do the same thing.

If Norfolk thinks the importance to competing is attracting residents from other parts of Hampton Roads, then they will probably continue to play second city to VB, but if they really want to compete, then they will have to look outside of the metro for attention. And they will have to look at St Paul as an extension to downtown, and treat it as such.

The city is moving in the right direction with the addition of light rail, they just need to continue with that kind of forward thinking throughout the rest of the city. When looking at the city, it is important not to focus on what is there, but rather what could be there. We are always capable of changing the urban landscape, a crime ridden neighborhood today could become the next hotspot for home redevelopment and trendy shops in its commercial area....looking at the changes Portland has made is some of its worst neighborhoods, Norfolk is in line to have the chance to make much of these same changes.

[skylinefan]

I couldn't agree more. I've been researching Portland and the Pearl District for some time. I've also been reading up on Portland's office of Sustainable Development hoping to pursuade Norfolk to move in the same direction. The major difference with regard to affordable housing, it's done "right" in other progressive cities. They have amazing architects design the housing in such a fashion that it changes people's expectations of what affordable housing can and should be (not a vinyl siding box). The design encourages social interaction with courtyards/shared space creating a sense of community and "place". I'm a firm believer that in order to make affordable housing successful among market rate housing, you have to design it in such a manner that people totally forget its "affordable". Otherwise it carrys the same social stigma and associated fears. It can be done properly and is being done properly elsewhere. Just look at the work of architect David Baker and his work here Folsom + Dore

I know I've said this once before, Park Place is the diamond in the rough. We're going to start a project there shorlty which we hope will begin to spread the idea.

[mlsimons]

Public housing does not belong downtown. Period. Fix that and everything else will fall into place.

[brikkman]

Public housing does not belong downtown. Period. Fix that and everything else will fall into place.

[urbanlife]

Public housing does not belong downtown. Period. Fix that and everything else will fall into place.

[vtfan18]

Public housing does not belong downtown. Period. Fix that and everything else will fall into place.

[rusthebuss]

Ok...but the reality of the situation is that some (not all) of those housing units will be replaced because Hester, Riddick, and Burfoot will not allow gentrification to occur in St. Pauls. They will not allow all those residents to be "misplaced". Whether you agree with that or not, that's a totally different topic. I'm trying to discuss finding the proper balance or a new approach to affordable housing because there WILL affordable housing in St Pauls. I'm not arguing whether public housing should be downtown, because everyone know from a free market stand point that public housing is not efficient and best use. In addition, there is a difference between public housing and affordable housing.