Reuniting the Triad

[beyonce245]

As you all probably know, the Triad's Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) was divided into several smaller MSAs following the 2000 Census. As a result, the Triad went from a united population of well over 1 million (nearly 1.6 million in 2007) to many smaller fragmented MSAs.

This revision that occurred has many economic implications for the Triad. As a result of the revision, the Triad is no longer one of the 50 largest MSAs. Many companies looking at areas for corporate investment often only look at the 50 largest metropolitan areas.

The fragmented MSAs also have implications for the federal benefits our area receives. MSA data is often used to determine federal funding, including funding for medicare, community block grants, and transportation. While it's unknown how much federal assistance the Triad has lost because of these revisions, it's been reported that Lexington hospital has lost more than $100,000 every year in medicare reimbursement from the federal government. The Triad's other hospitals have surely been impacted as well. And if medicare payments have been effected, logic would lead us to believe that funding for transportation and community redevelopment has also been reduced.

Reuniting the Triad's MSAs is not only important to this region's economic vitality, it's important for our sense of community. Of course, we all hail from different parts of the Triad. And the occasional Greensboro v. Winston-Salem spitting match does happen every once in a while on these threads. But at the end of the day, we are all part of the Triad.

And frankly, the revisions don't make a damn bit of sense. The Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord wasn't split up, even though the distance between Charlotte and Gastonia is much more than the distance between Greensboro and Winston-Salem or High Point and Winston-Salem.

I've written an email to both Senator Burr and Senator Hagan. And my emails to Congressional members will be going out shortly. I encourage you to do the same.

Here's a list of links:

Senator Kay Hagan

Senator Richard Burr

Rep. Brad Miller

Rep. Mel Watt

Rep. Howard Coble: [email protected]

Rep. Virginia Foxx

If you do write your congressmen/senator, please be sure to tell them that the Piedmont Triad Partnership is spearheading this effort and that they can be reached at (336) 668-4556.

This should be a non partisan issue. So it should be easy to get all of the region's congressional members on board.

I'd encourage you to write you city council members as well and get them on board. The comment period to affect the MSA has already closed, but local officials may have more sway to get congressional reps off their butts.

Here's a list of email for WS city council

The Greensboro city website is down for maintenance. I'll post a link to its list of city council emails once the website is back up.

[krazeeboi]

Does Winston-Salem get more funding since it is now its own MSA, or do they at least get more control over the funds that come to their area? I ask because I rarely ever see those from the smaller MSA (e.g., Winston-Salem, Durham, Spartanburg, etc.) within a multinodal region rallying to have the former MSA reunited. Seems as though there might be some benefit for them to have their own MSA designation.

Charlotte's MSA wasn't split up because everything centers around Charlotte; it is THE urban center of the metro area. For all practical purposes, Gastonia functions as a suburb; it relies greatly upon Charlotte, which is why it didn't get split off. Greensboro and Winston-Salem are both urban centers where there is an almost equal concentration of jobs in both cities; neither is dependent on the other for jobs. They are both self-sustaining job centers yet they have an interdependency. Furthermore, the splits that occurred weren't arbitrary; they were based on commuting patterns.

[cityboi]

I have always wondered why Charlotte was the only major metro in NC that wasn't split up. They didn't split up Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill so why did they split up the Triad and the Triangle for that matter? Could be that Charlotte has some good friends in high places

[krazeeboi]

Come on now. If one can't see the obvious difference in the nature of Charlotte's metro area vs. that of the Triad and Triangle, then they are being biased. The Triad consists of two major job centers that are self-sufficient, and the same with the Triangle; they are multinodal metro areas. Look at the city populations of all these areas. Greensboro and Winston-Salem are practically the same size. Raleigh is about twice the size of Durham. But Charlotte is more than TEN TIMES larger than the next larger city in the metro area, Gastonia. Charlotte is the undisputed center of its metro where the vast majority of jobs are concentrated, so the outlying areas have a much, much greater dependence on Charlotte for jobs. And let it be known that at least one county, Lancaster (which is adjacent to Mecklenburg), was split off from the MSA to form its own micropolitan area. I think Iredell might have gotten split off into its own micropolitan area also.

And please note that several other multinodal metro areas got split up; it wasn't unique to NC at all. The splits were due to a change in the definition of MSAs which are based on commuting patterns and this affected MSAs all across the nation, most notably the Bay Area in California. Nobody's out to "get" the Triad.

[beyonce245]

Come on now. If one can't see the obvious difference in the nature of Charlotte's metro area vs. that of the Triad and Triangle, then they are being biased. The Triad consists of two major job centers that are self-sufficient, and the same with the Triangle; they are multinodal metro areas. Look at the city populations of all these areas. Greensboro and Winston-Salem are practically the same size. Raleigh is about twice the size of Durham. But Charlotte is more than TEN TIMES larger than the next larger city in the metro area, Gastonia. Charlotte is the undisputed center of its metro where the vast majority of jobs are concentrated, so the outlying areas have a much, much greater dependence on Charlotte for jobs. And let it be known that at least one county, Lancaster (which is adjacent to Mecklenburg), was split off from the MSA to form its own micropolitan area. I think Iredell might have gotten split off into its own micropolitan area also.

And please note that several other multinodal metro areas got split up; it wasn't unique to NC at all. The splits were due to a change in the definition of MSAs which are based on commuting patterns and this affected MSAs all across the nation, most notably the Bay Area in California. Nobody's out to "get" the Triad.

[cityboi]

What was really the determining factor in the commuting patterns because there is a high volume of commuting traffic between Guilford and Forsyth Counties. It makes no sense to me.

[krazeeboi]

You make a good point with the allocation of federal funds as justification for the recombining of the Triad MSAs. But I do wonder exactly how the allocation method has changed since now Greensboro and Winston-Salem are two separate MSAs. Does Winston-Salem now have more control over their funding now that it is its own MSA?

As far as commuting patterns not being an adequate enough indicator for determining the constitution of MSAs, I can see how some would say that, but we cannot forget that the CSA designation, also based on commuting patterns (of a lower threshold), gives a more comprehensive picture of the economic connectivity of a larger region. I don't know if any funding is tied to that or not, but I imagine that it must have some usefulness on a practical level.

[beyonce245]

You make a good point with the allocation of federal funds as justification for the recombining of the Triad MSAs. But I do wonder exactly how the allocation method has changed since now Greensboro and Winston-Salem are two separate MSAs. Does Winston-Salem now have more control over their funding now that it is its own MSA?

As far as commuting patterns not being an adequate enough indicator for determining the constitution of MSAs, I can see how some would say that, but we cannot forget that the CSA designation, also based on commuting patterns (of a lower threshold), gives a more comprehensive picture of the economic connectivity of a larger region. I don't know if any funding is tied to that or not, but I imagine that it must have some usefulness on a practical level.

[cityboi]

The Triad is only recognized by the federal government as a CSA or Combined Statistical Area but I still think the Greensboro, Winston-Salem and High Point need to be one MSA.

[krazeeboi]

From what I've read, the CSA is only used when calculating unemployment. Most private companies and even the federal government, apparently don't give it much weight.

I'm not sure what effect the smaller MSAs has on control over funding. I know the Greensboro and Winston-Salem areas both have separate metropolitan planning organizations for transportation. This presumably gives them more control over funding. But I would think actually combining these two MPOs would be good a thing towards promoting regional mass transit. As is it is now, the separate MPOs make individual decisions about what funds they want to allocate to PART. I would think combining them would result in a more equitable allotment of funds from each part of the region.

As for other funding, I'm not sure either. I know community block grants, and other types of federal funding flow through the state government and are allocated to municipalities on an as-needed basis. So recombining the MSA would not likely affect Winston's or Greensboro's individual control over certain types of funding. There would just be more of it.

[beyonce245]

How about you Winston folks. What do you all think?

[suburban george3]

How about you Winston folks. What do you all think?

[beyonce245]

Found a comparison of commuting patterns in 2000 to those in 2006 on the PART website. Here's a link if you want to see the bigger version.

Whether or not this would meet the 25% criteria introduced in 2003, I don't know. But it seems pretty likely that Greensboro is the center of the metro. Guilford receives nearly 5,000 more commuters from Davidson than does Forsyth. Yet Davidson is included in Forsyths MSA if I'm not mistaken. In All, 80,355 from outlying counties commute into guilford, including 19,602 from Forsyth.

I'm trying to find the workforce numbers for Forsyth and Guilford Counties.

[cityboi]

Found a comparison of commuting patterns in 2000 to those in 2006 on the PART website. Here's a link if you want to see the bigger version.

Whether or not this would meet the 25% criteria introduced in 2003, I don't know. But it seems pretty likely that Greensboro is the center of the metro. Guilford receives nearly 5,000 more commuters from Davidson than does Forsyth. Yet Davidson is included in Forsyths MSA if I'm not mistaken. In All, 80,355 from outlying counties commute into guilford, including 19,602 from Forsyth.

I'm trying to find the workforce numbers for Forsyth and Guilford Counties.

[beyonce245]

Those numbers are pretty accurate. You prove the point that Forsyth, Guilford and Davidson need to be included in the same metro. Although I do see why Davidson may have been singled out being included in Winston's metro. I actually work in Lexington and I can tell you that the people that live there associate themselves with Winston-Salem more so than Greensboro. Winston-Salem is closer to Lexington via Hwy 52 and most residents in Lexington go shopping at Hanes Mall. But yea those commuting pattern figures don't lie. I think its mainly due to the fact that the Airport area is such a big job market for the entire region. It really helps tie all the counties together.

[twincity]

Davidson County is its own Micropolitan. It is not included in the W-S MSA.

[beyonce245]

Davidson County is its own Micropolitan. It is not included in the W-S MSA.

[suburban george3]

Whether or not this would meet the 25% criteria introduced in 2003, I don't know. But it seems pretty likely that Greensboro is the center of the metro. Guilford receives nearly 5,000 more commuters from Davidson than does Forsyth.

[beyonce245]

Wow, I guess the fact that High Point also being on the Davidson Co line, and a sizeable city into itself doesn't account for the extra commuters to Guilford Co.?? If High Point were in Forsyth Co and the numbers reversed, would you then declare that Winston-Salem was the center of the metro???

[twincity]

Maybe we should have this debate in 2010 when the new numbers are out. Much of this thread is based on info from 3 years ago and we all know this area is going through some drastic economic changes. Im sure these numbers have changed.

[cityboi]

and they'll change even more once with FedEx being operartional and HondaJet. I suspect there will be a push to try to get the Triad back as one MSA.

[twincity]

Big announcements have been made in all counties cityboi, not just in Guilford. And when I say "announcements" I mean job additions and subtractions.

[cityboi]

Big announcements have been made in all counties cityboi, not just in Guilford. And when I say "announcements" I mean job additions and subtractions.

[suburban george3]

true but projections show that the airport area business is going to grow quite a bit meaning commuting numbers into Guilford County is going to increase.

[cityboi]

The point I was trying to make is that the commuting numbers are going to grow which will lead to the Triad becoming one MSA. Which county gets more commuting traffic is irrelevant. But Yea I do believe the Airport area is going to be the job mecca for the region. Remember while the airport is outside of Greensboro, the whole airport area includes High Point and portions of Forsyth County (Heart of the Triad project) So no its not just a Greensboro thing.