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major hotel in the works for downtown Greensboro


cityboi

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Thanks for posting. I sure would like to know what's mentioned on all the blacked out pages at the end. I'm assuming the council has known about this for at least a few days now, since it was submitted January 11th. Perhaps that's why Robbie Perkins seemed so positive about the proposal's prospects over at Ed Cone.

How did you get this? Was it posted on the N&R website earlier and then taken down? Maybe the paper is working on another piece for tomorrow.

I wish we knew how much the Elm Street Center was appraised for since this is the group's main capital contribution to the project.

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It was on the News & Record website. I noticed those blacked out pages too. Reminds me of some government cover-up LOL. Im pretty sure that sensative information like the names of the two hotel chains being considered are mentioned in those black pages and possibly names of the bond holders. That means city council may already know what the name of this hotel may be. Robbie Perkins keeps tabs on the status of projects and he also knows when he has the votes for a project. In this case it looks like its out of city councils hands now unless opponents on city council try to stall it. I do hope this hotel is along the lines of something like Hyatt Regency. The hotel developers said the room rates in this proposed hotel would be an average of $150 per night with the more expensive suites exceeding $200 per night. It just so happens that many Hyatt Regencies average around $150 per night. The name is quite fitting because one of the ballrooms in the Elm Street Center is called the Regency Room. Another omen could be the fact that the architect is named Hyatt ;) As luxurious as this hotel as being portrayed, I just cant imagine this being a Courtyard by Marriott type hotel. And if you are marketing this as a luxury hotel, you don't want to go with the ordinary brands like Sheraton or Hilton. Don't get me wrong, those brands do have luxury hotels but if you want to attract a lot of guests paying upscale money at this hotel, you need an upscale brand name. Besides the downtown Marriott use to be called Hilton and Sheraton and those names didnt seem to fair well for that hotel. Downtown has had a Hilton twice. The other one is a 12-story highrise on the edge of downtown near Greensboro College. Its currently being used as a dorm. Of the upscale brands, Hyatt and Wyndham are the most realistic for this market. Less likely are Omni, Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons. I put Westin in the maybe category but still less likely.

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Thanks for the scoopy City.

It looks great. I am actually more excited about this than before. Basically it looks like they are going to build behind and over top of Elm Street Center. This is how they are getting 200 rooms plus retail in just 8 stories. It looks like they had parking below but upon request they are changing it to mixed use. Naturally this is better. Otherwise on Davie Street, people would have been walking by a parking garage at street level. However, not sure where the parking will go so we'll see. Overall though, this seems to be a pretty big project. Although I still have my doubts about it I have no doubt if this happens it will be a game changer for downtown.

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I think if this happens, it will break some barriers in what can be built downtown. We've had great success downtown with the new ballpark, center-city park, residential development and the opening of more night clubs and restaurants but its time to take it up another notch. Its time to turn downtown and our city in general into a true urban destination. We can do that once we get beyond the small town mentality and the fear of making bolder moves to move this city forward. Greensboro and the Triad should be on the same playing field with Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham. The irony is that it always seems to take an outsider to make us realize that. They seem to know us better than we know ourselves. When Southside was first proposed by a Charlotte developer, no local developer would even consider doing something like Southside in that location because they believed it couldnt be done.....not in Greensboro. Thats the difference between a mediocre city and a great city. If you have the mentality that it can't be done it wont be done. Cities that play it safe will always be behind. Our leaders and developers need to start being more creative to make the impossible possible. Now if this hotel gets built and is a great success, our friend Dennis Quaintance will have lost a great opportunity to a Memphis developer. He was one of the ones who said a luxury hotel cant succeed downtown. Thats why he built his O'Henry and Proximity Hotels at Friendly Shopping Center. Those are two great hotel. The problem is that you have two nice urban hotels in a not so urban environment. We need to lose the 70s and 80s mentality that the big things can only succeed on High Point Rd or off the interstates in suburbia.

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This is truly a beautiful proposal! I hope it gets built. <IMG src="http://www.saveaplanet.org/cdn/img/public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif">
It is definitely nice looking, but I don't like the fact that it is being funded at the expense of the taxpayers. Out of all the taxpayers who are going to fund this proposed hotel, how many are going to use it? I'm willing to bet zero. If these developers want to build a hotel they should build it with their own money and not through ARRA loans that will probably never get paid back IMO. If by some miracle, the developers are able to pay back the loans than i'll eat crow and enjoy it.&nbsp;<IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt=:) src="http://www.saveaplanet.org/cdn/img/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif">&nbsp;
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Taxpayers are not funding this project. These are bonds set aside for private development as part of the federal stimulus package. The bonds will be backed by private investors who will be responsible for them just like any loan. The difference is these bonds allow for private investors to get a low interest rate in a similar way as the government does when it uses bonds to fund construction of public projects.

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Taxpayers are not funding this project. These are bonds set aside for private development as part of the federal stimulus package. The bonds will be backed by private investors who will be responsible for them just like any loan. The difference is these bonds allow for private investors to get a low interest rate in a similar way as the government does when it uses bonds to fund construction of public projects.

If the funding is not coming from taxpayers than where is it coming from? It sure as heck isn't coming from money growing on trees or thin air. ARRA is a big waste of money that adds to the national debt, hurts the taxpayers even more, and hasn't improved our economy at all. Notice the unemployment rate is still right where it's at or worse since the ARRA package was passed. What happens if the investors can't pay back the loan? Guess who gets stuck with the bill? You and I do.

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I think many get this confused with traditional "city bonds" which are not backed by private investors. This ARRA bond program was designed to stimulate the ecnonomy, add jobs while protecting the tax payer at the same time. I think this is a very smart way to finance this mixed-use hotel project.

This is a very exciting project especially after discovering it will include shops, restaurants, office and entertainment. The building will further add density to South Elm Street. Looking at the rendering, It looks like there will have to be a lot of remodeling and exterior work done to the ELm Street Center. After seeing this hotel being built above the Elm Street Center, I wonder if the foundation was built to support 6 or 7 stories above it.

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Lets try to guess the hotel brand of this project. We know that Urban Hotel Group was looking for a hotel associated with InterContinental when it was proposed at the Lee/Elm site. Could Greensboro really get an InterContinental Hotel in the heart of downtown? Or could it be one of their smaller upscale brands such as "Hotel Indigo" or "Crowne Plaza"?

Now that Urban Hotel Group is working with the Elm Street Center, they may be seeking another brand. Over at the Elm Street Center they said they had discussions with Wyndham several years back when they were doing a study for a 15-story hotel behind the Elm Street Center.

What are the chances of this hotel being a Hyatt Regency?

It seems like to me that it would not be a good idea to go with something like Hilton or Sheraton. We already have a big Sheraton in the city. We currently have 2 large Marriotts. The Hilton name hasnt done much for downtown. The downtown Marriott was once called Hilton and who can forget the old 12-story Hilton on the edge of downtown near Greensboro College which is current being used for student housing. Clearly this hotel is not going to be a Holiday Inn or a Hampton Inn or a Couryard by Marriott if this is to be marketed as a "luxury hotel". We know it can't be an Embassy Suites because the design doesnt fit Embassy Suites model. Radisson and Ramada seem to be out of the question for a luxury hotel.

Once you cancel out the Hiltons, Marriotts and Sheratons that only leaves leaves the upscale brands so the question is which one?

Here is a list of major upscale chains: (a few on the list are probably more realistic than others. I will say that Councilman Robbie Perkins seems to be really excited about this hotel, almost giddy)

- Ritz-Carlton

- Omni

- Westin

- InterContinental

- Four Seasons

- Hyatt Regency

- Wyndham

smaller luxury chains

- Crowne Plaza

- Hotel Indigo

Personally I could see either Crowne Plaza or Hotel Indigo. There is a Hotel Indigo in Research Traingle Park and a 12-story Hotel Indigo in downtown Asheville. Hotel Indigo could be likely because it is a part of InterContinental and thats the hotel brand that was originally sought after when this hotel was first proposed at Elm and Lee. I would definately be happy with a Hotel Indigo. Those are very posh hotels. Greensboro almost got a Crowne Plaza some years ago. It was suppose to be an 8-story luxury hotel that fronts I-40 near Wendover Ave and the hotel was to include corporate apartments. Crowne Plaza and Hotel Indigo are primarily located in larger city markets but there are a some locations in medium city markets such as Greensboro. That would make these two brands the most realistic. For the other brands I think Wyndham is a possibilty because The Elm Street Center was in talks with Wyndham when they were doing a feasibilty study for a 15-story hotel three or four years ago. Wyndham is also the sponsor of Greensboro's PGA event so there is an establish relationship with Wyndham. To a lesser extent Hyatt Regency maybe possible. Its also a hotel chain thats primarily in major urban markets but there a few Hyatt Rengencies in markets Greensboro's size or smaller (Greenville, SC & Lexington, KY) Ritz Carlton, Omni and Four Seasons are the least likely hotel brands. Kaplan of the Elm Street Center did say this would be a "flagship" brand.

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If the funding is not coming from taxpayers than where is it coming from? It sure as heck isn't coming from money growing on trees or thin air. ARRA is a big waste of money that adds to the national debt, hurts the taxpayers even more, and hasn't improved our economy at all. Notice the unemployment rate is still right where it's at or worse since the ARRA package was passed. What happens if the investors can't pay back the loan? Guess who gets stuck with the bill? You and I do.

You're partially right but mostly wrong. These bonds, recovery zone facility bonds, are required to be underwritten by a private bank or investment firm, which will assume responsibility for the debt should the owners default. Taxpayers will not be obliged to "bail out" failed projects, which is A GOOD THING, because that forces banks and investment firms underwriting these projects to be more thorough in their vetting.

As for the overall ARRA package, they're many different interpretations of its effectiveness. Did it prevent the unemployment rate from climbing to 10%, like Pres. Obama said? No. Did it prevent the unemployment rate from going higher than it already is. Most Probably.

A quick google search pulls up story after story of how your home area Greenville, and its residents, have benefited from ARRA spending. For example, this story from August details how Greenville County Schools only had to cut 68 teachers as opposed to 238 because of stimulus funds. Greenville County will also gain 113 jobs as a result of a $15 million ARRA allocation to Kemet to build components for hydrogen fuel cells.

Is the stimulus a long term solution for economic growth? Absolutely not. But in the near term, it did help lessen further damage to employment and economic markets, which would have only further stymied the reduction of the national debt which you decried in your original post.

Lastly, South Carolina is a receiver state, meaning that for every dollar in federal taxes it sends, it receives that dollar plus some in federal spending. In 2004, South Carolina received $1.38 for every $1 in taxes from its citizens. So relatively speaking, states like New York and California are getting stuck with you and your neighbor's bill...not the other way around.

I hope I don't come off as condescending or rude. I just find it irritating when UPers from other boards swoop in and make comments, usually without the facts to back them up.

Resuming the topic already in progress.......

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thats ok with me beyonce...but if this project goes through we'll see if I was right with any of the brands I listed.

city clears up bond issue confusion....meanwhile NO city council member has indicated that they want to block this hotel project or rescinded their decision. As far as the bond goes, it seems the city has given its blessing. However a few council members felt they were deceived. The city council will take up the issue on the associated parking deck. Apparently the city would be in a legal bind if they did rescind their decision on the bond. The hotel group could sue the city. Now it could be that a few council members still may be against the project but instead of putting the city in a legal bind, they might try to force the hotel group to abandon the project by not supporting the parking deck for the project. However if there were enough votes on city council to not support the deck and they forced the hotel group to abandon plans, Greensboro would lose a big chunk of the recovery bonds. The project has to clear that hurdle as well and it will be interesting to see what the council members have to say on the parking deck. It seems likely that there will be enough votes on council to build the city deck. For one thing city staff recommened a parking deck indepently from the hotel project. In other words the city was going to build the deck anyway. Surely people around Greensboro against the project will use the parking deck as a crutch in not supporting this hotel.

But tonight at city council it appeared that this project could have the support of Mary Rakestraw who is one of the ones I thought would be dead against it. If thats true, I see very little that could stop this project. But clearly the mayor, city council and even city staff were confused on this matter and its quite embarrasing to say the least. City Council voted for the bonds of a $50 million plus project and did not have any info or any kind of preliminary blue prints on it.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/01/19/article/city_clears_up_bond_project_confusion

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This is getting pretty interesting. The 8 story schematic is a positive sign. Personally I like the size because a skyscraper isn't necessary to be successful, and the 8 story mark makes it a great use of space. In terms of hotel brands:

Ritz-Carlton -- not a chance. They just opened in Charlotte, and all that took was the nation's largest bank to back it. I doubt Greensboro has that kind of corporate presence that can influence one of the world's foremost brands.

Omni -- I could see it. There is only one in NC, of course, in Charlotte. But they haven't really been expanding, except in Fort Worth.

Westin -- This could be a surprising possibility. Charlotte has one, RTP and Raleigh are supposed to be getting one, so Greensboro is a good choice.

Intercontinental -- Probably not.

Four Seasons -- not a chance.

Hyatt Regency -- a likely brand for the city, but Hyatts haven't done well in NC, with the exception of Hyatt Place which aren't really Hyatts except in name only. The only Hyatt Regency was in Charlotte outside Southpark, but closed and was rebranded as a Renaissance.

Wyndham -- probably the most likely choice. They do support the PGA tourney there, so it gives them a good foot in the door.

Hotel Indigo -- I am gonna have to say no, but with small hope. RTP = major business incubator, and Asheville = major tourist, urban destination. Greensboro, to be honest, is none of those. But hey, with the addition of the Civil Rights Museum and the fact that it is off of Elm St. gives this brand a chance to take.

Crowne Plaza -- My choice. Not too luxury, but not run of the mill. IC Hotels Group brand, so that works, and since Greensboro is a major convention destination and the hotel would be a part of the Elm St. Center, this is the brand I could most likely see.

We have to remember, we can speculate all we want to, but just because the developer says luxury doesn't mean they may be blurring the lines a bit. Raleigh was promised a 4-star, usually top of the line luxury, Marriott, and right now, it is probably 3.5 star. There have been many instances where a "luxury" hotel is promised, only to result in not-so-luxury hotels. But this doesn't mean this is a significant project to come Greensboro's way.

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Even though it may be a bit premature to be discussing brands, it doesn't hurt to think what the name of this hotel could be if its built and I think its worthy of discussion.

I think you hit the mark on the hotel brands Rufus. I personally think Wyndham and Crown Plaza are the most realistic of all the hotels I listed. I think without the PGA connection, the chance would be the same as the others. But make no mistake Wyndham is a very upscale brand in the same league as a Westin so it would be a big deal if we had a Wyndham downtown. Charlotte doesn't even have a Wyndham and when I say Wyndham I mean their luxury hotels not the "garden hotels" like the Wyndham out by PTI or a Wingate by Wyndham. There is a difference (like Hyatt Regency vs Hyatt Place). Crown Plaza may be the most realistic though. A good fit for this market and its still a luxury brand even though its not in the league of a Ritz or a Four Seasons. We already have an indication of a Crown Plaza being a possibilty because Urban Hotel Group even said they wanted to attract the InterContinental brand when the hotel was first proposed on Lee and Elm. Now mind you Urban Hotel Group may not have meant an actual InterContinental hotel but one of its brands (Crowne Plaza and Hotel Indigo) InterContinental also owns Holiday Inn but I seriously doubt thats the brand Urban Hotel Group is seeking. While I support this project no matter what hotel brand they chose, I don't think they should go with brand names that have not had success in downtown Greensboro like the Hilton. We can talk about whether downtown can support another hotel but if the project goes with a chain, branding makes a big difference. I don't see this hotel being a Courtyard by Marriott, Ramada, Radisson or Hampton Inn. I think they are going to have to go with an upscale brand of some sort, otherwise this hotel will directly be in competition with the big Marriott down the street which has higher than average room vacancy and thats not a good thing. It would not be wise to have a brand on par with the Marriott and offer significantly more expensive rooms. A name can make all the difference in the world. Budget hotels attract one kind of traveler and luxury hotels attract another. The downtown Marriott is a large budget hotel. We have an indication that it could be a Wyndham because Kaplan of the Elm Street Center said they were in discussion with Wyndham several years ago when they were studying the idea of putting a 15-story hotel behind the Elm Street Center. They were going to do it but it turned out they didnt have the financing for it. If its a Wyndham luxury hotel, its going to be more successful than the downtown Marriott and will likely take a little business away from O'Henry and Proximity. This is probably why Dennis Quaintance has voiced concern over this project.

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Maybe I'm the odd man out, but out of all the branded hotels you listed, I think Hilton would be the best fit, especially one in the style of the Chicago Hilton or Drake or Palmer House hotels. Despite its 1970's facade, the Elm Street Center is actually quite ornate inside, very old world feeling, which is the feeling I get from the rendering of the hotel.

I know some people have said Hilton isn't luxury. But a hotels worth is much more than its name. Hotels and are defined by the amenities they offer, their surroundings, etc. etc. I've had the pleasure of staying at the Palmer House in Chicago, which is now a Hilton hotel, and it was the nicest hotel I've stayed at. Period.

And from a business standpoint, it makes sense for the hotel to carry the flag of a brand like Hilton, which has a wide base of existing customers. I suppose the same could be said for IHG, but an Intercontinental was never a reality. And personally, I think Crowne Plazas look like Donald Trump's interpretation of a Holiday Inn (Did you know there's a Crowne Plaza in Hickory, NC? Talk about Luxury!)

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Even though it may be a bit premature to be discussing brands, it doesn't hurt to think what the name of this hotel could be if its built.

I think you hit the mark on the hotel brands Rufus. I personally think Wyndham and Crown Plaza are the most realistic of all the hotels I listed. I think without the PGA connection, the chance would be the same as the others. But make no mistake Wyndham is a very upscale brand in the same league as a Westin so it would be a big deal if it were a Wyndham. Charlotte doesn't even have a Wyndham and when I say Wyndham I mean their luxury hotels not the "garden hotels" like the Wyndham out by PTI or a Wingate by Wyndham. There is a difference (like Hyatt Regency vs Hyatt Place). Crown Plaza may be the most realistic though. A good fit for this market and its still a luxury brand even though its not in the league of a Ritz or a Four Seasons. We already have an indication of a Crown Plaza being a possibilty because Urban Hotel Group even said they wanted to attract the InterContinental brand when the hotel was first proposed on Lee and Elm. Now mind you Urban Hotel Group may not have meant an actual InterContinental hotel but one of its brands (Crowne Plaza and Hotel Indigo) InterContinental also owns Holiday Inn but I seriously doubt thats the brand Urban Hotel Group is seeking. While I support this project no matter what hotel brand they chose, I don't think they should go with brand names that have not had success in downtown Greensboro like the Hilton. We can talk about whether downtown can support another hotel but if the project goes with a chain, branding makes a big difference. I don't see this hotel being a Courtyard by Marriott, Ramada, Radisson or Hampton Inn. I think they are going to have to go with an upscale brand of some sort, otherwise this hotel will directly be in competition with the big Marriott down the street which has higher than average room vacancy and thats not a good thing. It would not be a good idea to have a brand on par with the Marriott and offer significantly more expensive rooms. A name can make all the difference in the world. Budget hotels attract one kind of traveler and luxury hotels attract another. The downtown Marriott is a large budget hotel. If its a Wyndham luxury hotel, its going to be more successful than the downtown Marriott and will likely take a little business away from O'Henry and Proximity. This is probably why Dennis Quaintance has voiced concern over this project.

Ok seriously city....that is a bit much...both in substance and speculation.

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I don't think you came off as rude or anything beyonce245. I appreciate the facts and am glad to eat crow on this one. :) As long as the taxpayers don't have to bail out the investors/developers if they aren't able to pay back the loans than I don't have a problem with it. I truly hope this project is successful. We need all the economic development projects we can get. shades.gif Greenville has a Westin, Hyatt Regency, and Crowne Plaza so I don't see why Greensboro couldn't. Even Huntsville has a Westin now.

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I agree beyonce. Hilton does have some nice hotels and many are luxury. The problem I have with that brand in this case are the room rates. Brand name wise Hilton is on par with Marriott. The rates in the proposed hotel will be significantly higher than the Marriott. Yes Amenities matter as well as location as I've argued in past posts. But people do stay at hotels based on brand as well and the kind of travelers that stay at Marriotts, stay at Hiltons. We know the Hilton name has not done well in downtown Greensboro. We've already had two Hilton hotels downtown. We don't need a Sheraton. The Marriott use to be a Sheraton and we already have a 1,000 room Sheraton on High Point Rd.

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I agree beyonce. Hilton does have some nice hotels and many are luxury. The problem I have with that brand in this case are the room rates. Brand name wise Hilton is on par with Marriott. The rates in the proposed hotel will be significantly higher than the Marriott. Yes Amenities matter as well as location as I've argued in past posts. But people do stay at hotels based on brand and the kind of travelers that stay at Marriotts, stay at Hiltons. We know the Hilton name has not done well in downtown Greensboro. We've already had two Hilton hotels downtown. We don't need a Sheraton. The Marriott use to be a Sheraton and we already have a 1,000 room Sheraton on High Point Rd.

We obviously see things differently. I'm taking a break from this topic again. I've had my fill of speculation for a while.

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Imagine my shock and dismay when I read this in the Biz Journal this morning: "I feel confident in the hotel and the people behind it that I have met," said councilwoman Mary Rakestraw.

Seriously...Mary Rakestraw said this? It has to be a misprint!

Yes I'm just as stunned as you are. Clearly thats unlike her. I got the feeling she supported this last night at city council meeting when she made the point that there would be no risk to taxpayers. To top things off county commissioner Skip Alston is involved. Both Skip and Mary served on the county commission together and they hardly ever agreed on anything. Just a few days a go she said she didnt know what she was going to do. Im stunned mainly because the associate parking deck will cost taxpayers. But the point has been made that deck is getting built with or without the hotel. If she is a supporter of this, I think there will be no problem with council voting to build the deck. We've had hotel project after hotel project fail in recent years and it wasnt because there isnt a demand for another hotel. Its because developers couldnt get financing or the overall project seemed to unrealistic. The last time a Greenville developer wanted to build a small hotel (Hampton Inn type) at McGee and Greene. He had the financing but he needed the city to build a deck. The city said no so that killed the project. With this project all the pieces are coming together to make it work. There is a demand for this type of hotel, the financing is there, we have council support and the city is now ready to build a parking deck. I know we still don't want to count our chickens before they hatch but at this point I don't see anything that will kill this project. Its an exciting project because its not just a hotel. It will have shops, office , restaurants and entertainment. It will be a unique hotel complex unlike anything in the city. Dennis Quaintance didnt build his two upscale hotels downtown because he said he couldn't make the numbers work. But thats only because he wasn't thinking outside the box. In this case the recovery bonds are a big reason this project is moving forward but this hotel group has used other mechanisms to make the numbers work by turning into a mixed-use project. If Dennis Quaintance had done that, the Proximity Hotel would be downtown today. It looks like he lost out on a golden opportunity. Thats what happens when you have the "can't" attitude.

One thing I have noticed. The editors of the Business Journal dont seem to be as optimistic. The tone of that article highlights the fact that council can remove the hotel project if they wanted to. And last Friday head editor Justin Catanoso railed against this project showing his numbers and saying why this project won't be successful. I think that was foolish of him because he didnt have all the facts and his figures didnt include the mixed-use component which acts as a saftey net to help pay the debt off should the worse case scenario happen.

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I hope this project happens and is a success. Maybe there is some uncertainty and some risks involved. But you know what, downtown would have never been revitalized if it were not for a lot of people taking risks. Like City has said Southside would have never been built if it were left to those who are just conservative.

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