major hotel in the works for downtown Greensboro

[cityboi]

looks like there is some environmental testings and grading being done on the proposed hotel and school administration building sites. ECS Carolinas LLP is involved with doing this so maybe we'll hear something soon about these projects. The company did preliminary work for the Grandover Resort, Ritz Carlton in uptown Charlotte and the Dell site.

[cityboi]

neighborhood wants this hotel locally owned

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/10...cally_run_hotel

[cityboi]

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/11/30/article/city_to_consider_hotel_proposa

city commision is considering to sale land for hotel project. If this land is sold, its likely this hotel project is happening.

more hotel details.....

The proposed hotel would be built at the corner of South Elm and Lee streets. It would be seven stories tall on that corner.

It will include 200 guest rooms, a restaurant, a lobby bar, a pool and 7,400 square feet of meeting space. Rooms would rent for more than $200 a night.

An adjacent parking garage — proposed to be built with an $8 million subsidy from the city — would be two-stories tall and hold 16,000 square feet of retail space

A feasibility study written by a hospitality consultant group recommended recruiting the luxury hotel company InterContinental for the project. Im not sure if they are talking about an InterContinental hotel or one of the brands they own such as Crown Plaza, Holiday Inn and Candlewood Suite. I will say I cant imagine a Holiday Inn at $200 plus a night. But its also worth noting that InterContinental is an upscale hotel chain found in cities such as Atlanta, New York, San Francisco, Boston and Houston and would be an amazing feat to attract such a hotel downtown. I will say the city really needs to clean up the area with improved streetscaping. when you clean up an area, tackle potential crime spots, the perception of an area can change like it did with Southside.

[beyonce245]

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/11/30/article/city_to_consider_hotel_proposa

city commision is considering to sale land for hotel project. If this land is sold, its likely this hotel project is happening.

more hotel details.....

The proposed hotel would be built at the corner of South Elm and Lee streets. It would be seven stories tall on that corner.

It will include 200 guest rooms, a restaurant, a lobby bar, a pool and 7,400 square feet of meeting space. Rooms would rent for more than $200 a night.

An adjacent parking garage — proposed to be built with an $8 million subsidy from the city — would be two-stories tall and hold 16,000 square feet of retail space

A feasibility study written by a hospitality consultant group recommended recruiting the luxury hotel company InterContinental for the project. Im not sure if they are talking about an InterContinental hotel or one of the brands they own such as Crown Plaza, Holiday Inn and Candlewood Suite. I will say I cant imagine a Holiday Inn at $200 plus a night. But its also worth noting that InterContinental is an upscale hotel chain found in cities such as Atlanta, New York, San Francisco, Boston and Houston and would be an amazing feat to attract such a hotel downtown. I will say the city really needs to clean up the area with improved streetscaping. when you clean up an area, tackle potential crime spots, the perception of an area can change like it did with Southside.

You beat me to the post once again cityboi. To Ms. Chisholm's credit, it's good to see that this proposal has been reduced in terms of acreage. They wanted 4 acres, as cited in the article from your Oct. 9th post. Now it's down to 2.75. I also like that a parking deck would be incorporated. But if the city is going to subsidize the parking deck, the city and Chisholm alike should consider building a larger deck. A two story parking deck doesn't seem like enough space for a hotel with 200 rooms, plus other area traffic.

I'm still wary of this proposal in general. I don't think an Intercontinental hotel is very likely at this location. But you're right that it would be a good get for downtown. I'm also concerned that this project would have the potential to get stalled along the way, since Chisholm would be relying substantially on bonds through the ARRA. I think that would be less likely to happen through the master developer plan, as previously adopted. Plus, She wants to move quickly to take advantage of the ARRA bonds, but signing a hotel brand like Intercontinental or the like could take months.

I'd like to see plans from Chisholm, including renderings and specs, and financing. I'd also like to see the hospitality analysis that recommended Intercontinental. Hopefully, more details will come out in the coming days. I might just attend the public hearing on December 21st.

UPDATE: Ok. So the more I think about it, the more I'd rather see some other brand hotel, should this proposal come to fruition of course. An Intercontinental hotel is simply not feasible for this site, IMO. As much as I'd like to see that caliber of hotel downtown, or anywhere in Greensboro for that matter, I'd much rather see a hotel that is more affordable anyway, a hotel that more people would be able to stay at. Something like a Courtyard by Marriott:

Still a nice hotel, but one that more people would be able to afford. The whole luxury thing kind of irks me. I'm not opposed to expensive hotels or shops or restaurants. But if everything is luxury (interpreted as expensive) we will price out whole segments of residents and visitors that could and should be downtown. IMO, the city and redevelopment commission should be using this land to attract more young professionals and middle income residents. And a Courtyard by Marriott or similarly priced hotel and compatibly priced shops and restaurants would work better, especially in a transitioning area like this.

[cityboi]

You beat me to the post once again cityboi. To Ms. Chisholm's credit, it's good to see that this proposal has been reduced in terms of acreage. They wanted 4 acres, as cited in the article from your Oct. 9th post. Now it's down to 2.75. I also like that a parking deck would be incorporated. But if the city is going to subsidize the parking deck, the city and Chisholm alike should consider building a larger deck. A two story parking deck doesn't seem like enough space for a hotel with 200 rooms, plus other area traffic.

I'm still wary of this proposal in general. I don't think an Intercontinental hotel is very likely at this location. But you're right that it would be a good get for downtown. I'm also concerned that this project would have the potential to get stalled along the way, since Chisholm would be relying substantially on bonds through the ARRA. I think that would be less likely to happen through the master developer plan, as previously adopted. Plus, She wants to move quickly to take advantage of the ARRA bonds, but signing a hotel brand like Intercontinental or the like could take months.

I'd like to see plans from Chisholm, including renderings and specs, and financing. I'd also like to see the hospitality analysis that recommended Intercontinental. Hopefully, more details will come out in the coming days. I might just attend the public hearing on December 21st.

UPDATE: Ok. So the more I think about it, the more I'd rather see some other brand hotel, should this proposal come to fruition of course. An Intercontinental hotel is simply not feasible for this site, IMO. As much as I'd like to see that caliber of hotel downtown, or anywhere in Greensboro for that matter, I'd much rather see a hotel that is more affordable anyway, a hotel that more people would be able to stay at. Something like a Courtyard by Marriott:

Still a nice hotel, but one that more people would be able to afford. The whole luxury thing kind of irks me. I'm not opposed to expensive hotels or shops or restaurants. But if everything is luxury (interpreted as expensive) we will price out whole segments of residents and visitors that could and should be downtown. IMO, the city and redevelopment commission should be using this land to attract more young professionals and middle income residents. And a Courtyard by Marriott or similarly priced hotel and compatibly priced shops and restaurants would work better, especially in a transitioning area like this.

I think the change in acreage signals a change in the original design which many said didn't fit with the area . It seems that some on the commission have reservations about selling the land for the hotel because they wanted to see a developer come in with a master plan. In fact this hotel would be a catalyst for a developer coming in to do just that. Right now developers dont want to take risks on big projects. Here we have a developer coming in wanting to build something of high caliber there and the project would almost immediately attract a master developer in my opinion. But in many master plan developments such as Southside, there will always be those side developments that were never a part of the original master plan. There are examples of that in Southside and its not a bad thing. I think as long as Chisholm works with the community in coming up with a plan that blends in with the neighborhood it will be fine. There should be no opposition to this project just because its not part of some grand master plan. But Since Chisholm is asking for less land, I do think the commission will take a more serious look at the proposal. As far as a luxury brand at this location, apparently its feasible. Im no expert but the experts doing the studies say its a fit. I have no problem with this being a luxury hotel because downtown already has a more affordable hotel. (Marriott) But it very well could be a Intercontinental Hotel which would be amazing. Like I said before Intercontinental does own other hotel brands but I cant think of any of those brands charging more than $200 a night so we may see something like Intercontinental Hotel. But of course that was only a recommendation. That doesn't mean the hotel chain will build here. But even if its not a luxury hotel, id still be happy with the proposal. I guess will have to wait for more details. This is clearly the closest downtown has come in getting a new hotel.

Here is the updated article

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/12/01/article/hotel_proposal_for_south_elm_will_get_hearing

"Some redevelopment commission members had concerns that selling off the corner of the property would diminish the value of the rest of the site and make it more difficult to attract a developer."

That couldn't be further from the truth. It seems to me that a luxury hotel would increase land values in the area making it more likely that another developer would jump on board and take advantage before land values get to high. But i must admit, if it had not been for the success of Southside a block away, I would be skeptical of this project.

[cityboi]

The planned 8-story downtown hotel is one step closer to reality. The commission approved to sell the land for the development of a 200 room luxury hotel

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/12/21/article/commission_approves_land_sale_for_proposed_hotel

of course its not a done deal. This project still has to clear one major hurdle and thats our NEW city council. The project would likely require a public deck much like the other hotel that was proposed at Greene and McGee a few years back and council members like Danny Thompson and Bill Knight might make things difficult if city tax dollars are used in any kind of way for this project. Also there seems to be some conflicting feasibility studies on whether Greensboro can support a $200 a night room hotel. The more I think about it, I believe a $200 hotel is feasible but im not sure for a 200 room hotel. At that rate more like 50 to 100 rooms. In order for a hotel that big with those rates to be succesful, it has to be marketed more as a business (luxury) hotel and it really needs to be a conference hotel to some extent. There has to be a lure to attract guests to pay $200 a night at this hotel in this location. I predict it will happen but the hotel is going to go through some conceptual changes in the process.

[beyonce245]

The planned 8-story downtown hotel is one step closer to reality. The commission approved to sell the land for the development of a 200 room luxury hotel

http://www.news-reco..._proposed_hotel

of course its not a done deal. This project still has to clear one major hurdle and thats our NEW city council. The project would likely require a public deck much like the other hotel that was proposed at Greene and McGee a few years back and council members like Danny Thompson and Bill Knight might make things difficult if city tax dollars are used in any kind of way for this project. Also there seems to be some conflicting feasibility studies on whether Greensboro can support a $200 a night room hotel. The more I think about it, I believe a $200 hotel is feasible but im not sure for a 200 room hotel. At that rate more like 50 to 100 rooms. In order for a hotel that big with those rates to be succesful, it has to be marketed more as a business (luxury) hotel and it really needs to be a conference hotel to some extent. There has to be a lure to attract guests to pay $200 a night at this hotel in this location. I predict it will happen but the hotel is going to go through some conceptual changes in the process.

This article provides more background on the proposal. It was a vote to begin negotiations for a sale, not an actual sale.

The split vote by the redevelopment commission and the conflicting feasibility study commissioned by the city will certainly work against the proposal. There are still too many hurdles to declare whether or not this project will happen. I'd say right now it's more likely than not that it won't happen, given Chisholm's heavy reliance on bonds and the required approval by council. She want's to use the city's entire first share of the ARRA bonds, and I don't know that the council will go for that, especially since several other developers also submitted proposals to use some of the bonds.

I stand by my previous post that a lower, mid scale brand hotel would work better. I don't think Chisholm can get an Intercontinental or the like to sign on to this deal, especially at this location.

[cityboi]

I agree. What makes the project realistic are the bonds. Without them, the hotel wont happen. Expect a lot of debate among city leaders but clearly this is the closest downtown has ever come to getting another hotel. If the project doesnt attract a major luxury chain brand such as Intercontinental, I would expect to see one of the other brands Intercontinental owns like Candlewood Suites or something like a Hampton Inn or Wyndham Garden Inn

[beyonce245]

I agree. What makes the project realistic are the bonds. Without them, the hotel wont happen. Expect a lot of debate among city leaders but clearly this is the closest downtown has ever come to getting another hotel. If the project doesnt attract a major luxury chain brand such as Intercontinental, I would expect to see one of the other brands Intercontinental owns like Candlewood Suites or something like a Hampton Inn or Wyndham Garden Inn

What I meant about the bonds is that if anything, the bonds make the project less likely to happen. She wants $46 million in alternative financing (bonds and some outright city subsidies) for a $47 million project. Where is the rest of the private financing, investors? Add in a shaky feasibility study done by the City, and this proposal doesn't seem likely to get off the ground.

As I said in a previous post, I'd love to see an Intercontinental hotel or the like in Greensboro. But there's simply not the market for it yet, and certainly not at this location. I just can't see the city council approving this deal with so many ifs ands or buts.

Chisholm needs to scale her lofty plans back or it will most probably fail, especially when people like the President of the Koury Corp. have already come out against it and said they would do so at the city council meeting.

I'd still rather see mixed use over a hotel, but that's just me.

[Beany]

I don't see it. How about a 80-100 room Courtyard with a little bit of ground floor retail. Now that I would be good.

[cityboi]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what does or doesn't happen. For the time being im going to have a positive attitude about this project despite its unusual method of financing. But I do think there has to be a draw or a reason for someone to spend $200 a night at this hotel. If city money or bonds are involved, the developer is going to have to make a strong case to city-council that this project will be successful. Hopefully a master developer will come along to redevelop the rest of the land with mixed-use entertainment attractions. One thing I am against for sure is the school administration being built on the property. Its the wrong place for it and the renderings of it look horrendous. The foot print of the building is way to large for the site. They should buld the school administation building off of Summit Ave near the other county offices on Maple St

[beyonce245]

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or negative, just realistic in terms of this project's viability. I think downtown can absorb additional hotel rooms, just not those of the caliber that Chisholm has proposed. Again a Courtyard by Marriot or Hilton Garden Inn would work much better, IMO.

If she can pull this off and the city can get a master developer for the remaining land, I think it would be momentous for downtown.

[cityboi]

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or negative, just realistic in terms of this project's viability. I think downtown can absorb additional hotel rooms, just not those of the caliber that Chisholm has proposed. Again a Courtyard by Marriot or Hilton Garden Inn would work much better, IMO.

If she can pull this off and the city can get a master developer for the remaining land, I think it would be momentous for downtown.

I think she can pull it off... however, I do think her more lofty plans may shift to something thats less than a luxury hotel. If she pulls it off as planned, it would be an amazing feat. We have had a number of developers doing amazing things for downtown that would have been impossible eight years ago so we'll see what happens.

[beyonce245]

The proposed hotel is now considering alternate sites in downtown, including the lot beside/behind the new 5 story building going up on Elm. More here.

Moving the hotel to this location would make the project much more feasible, imo, especially because the city is now thinking about putting a new parking deck in this exact location. Combining the two would cut down on the cost of the project, because the developer was seeking city money to build an additional parking deck at the Lee Street site. It's also a better site for a hotel, closer to more attractions.

Obviously details of this proposal have been changing since it was first announced, so nothing is concrete or finalized by any means. But I think an alternate location does better the chances of this project moving forward.

[cityboi]

Well this is great. Bridget Chisholm is doing her homework and she knows what to expect. I think if its built at Lee and Elm she will face a lot of resistance from city council about building a parking deck there for her hotel. By moving it closer into the core of downtown and on the site of a proposed parking deck, the project becomes more realistic and accepted more by council members. Basically its two plans coming together (hotel & parking deck). Its a great idea to have a hotel just a few steps from the heart of downtown nightlife and attractions. right now there isn't a lot going on south of the tracks on Elm so the hotel would seem kinda isolated. The move also address safety concerns. But like a said before this plan will go through changes and we are seeing that. The new site is in the historic district so she will have to conform to more suitable architecture. So beyonce looks like the hotel wont look like the rendering you hate

This site is pretty much next to the new 5-story mid-rise on south Elm so it will add to the density having a 7-story building near the 5-story building. But then again we may see something a little taller than 7-stories because this new site has a MUCH SMALLER foot print and to build something with 200 rooms, on that site, she is going to have to go taller. Looking at the size of the lot it would have to be something like 10-stories or more. Consider this. The downtown Marriott is an 11-story hotel that has 281 rooms and the hotel sits on a larger foot print than the alternative site for this proposed hotel. Chisholm's planned hotel is almost as big as the downtown Marriott so this proposed hotel could potentally be a high-rise. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. One thing I like about this new plan is that the parking deck will have street level retail and will look like a building and not a parking deck.

The article said Chrisholm is considering two other sites. Im pretty sure one of them is the YWCA property in the cultural district which just went up for sale. But the best site in my opinion is the McGee/Elm site. Hotel guests shouldn't have to get in their cars to go to the downtown restaurants, bars, clubs, theater, ect.

One thing I would like to point out because some have mentioned shes not experienced enough with hotels. Bridget Chrisholm is working with someone who has had 27 years of experience in the hospitality industry (Marlon Phoenix) serving tenure as Vice President & General Manager for several national and international hospitality, gaming and resort companies. Bridget has experience in financing redevelopment properties but she also brings with her the experience in hotel development and management needed to make this project happen. Looks like the two individuals are combining their strengths.

http://urbanhotelgroup.com/team.php

They are also working on another hotel project in Memphis across from the FedEx Forum

[Beany]

Yea I don't see how you can get 200 rooms on that small lot without going taller. We shall hear something soon. It sounds like they are going to be making a decision on the location tomorrow.

[cityboi]

I think if she chooses the McGee/Elm lot and gets the redevelopment bonds, I am a lot more confident this project will happen. The proposed parking deck by the city of Greensboro really makes this project possible. several years ago a Greenville, SC developer wanted to build a hotel a block a way. It would have happened if the developer had a parking deck for his hotel. But at the time the city was not interested in building parking decks. Now the city wants to do it. Combine the parking deck project with secured financing for the hotel project and all the pieces of the puzzle are together to make this proposal a reality.

Here is the WFMY link. So yep we shall know tommorrow where this hotel is going. The key to success is to pick a location that works best for a luxury hotel and to pick a site that will address the concerns of city council members because they will have the final say on this project. The best thing Bridget can do is ride the coat tails of the planned parking deck project.

http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=135091&catid=57

[cityboi]

hotel project moving to the core of downtown.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/12/31/article/proposed_hotel_moves_to_elm_street_and_february_one_place

"On Thursday afternoon, developer Urban Hotel Group LLC worked out an agreement with Elm Street Center LLC to turn a parking deck at Davie Street and February One Place into a 200-room hotel, said Melvin “Skip” Alson, chairman of the Guilford County commissioners and the real estate broker for the deal."

If im not mistaken, I think local downtown developer Milton Kern is on the Board or part owner of the Elm Street Center.

It just so happens to be the site where a feasibilty study was done 2 years ago for a 200 room hotel which would reach as high as 15-stories on that site. If this project is approved by city council and this project moves forward, expect this to be a high-rise hotel on this particular site and if built at 15-stories, it will be as tall as the Guilford Building. This is great because the hotel would use the Empire Room in the Elm Street Center for meetings and banquet space. The entrance of the hotel would be on Elm Street. Also the International Civil Rights Museum will be across the street on Elm. A deal has been struck with Elm Street Center LLC. and now that other local big players are involved and this is a much better site (even better than McGee St Site), this project is a lot more realistic. Having these local players involved is very important because it helps give the project credibility. City Councilman Robbie Perkins has publically come out in support for this project since the changes. The sticking point will still be a parking deck because in this proposal the group will ask the city and county for $8 million. Will be interesting to see how this flies with our new city council. I predict the vote will be the same as the aquatic center. It will pass but by one vote. Keep in mind politics will be involved. A few of the conservative council members use to be county comissioners. Melvin Skip Alston is involved in this project and he is a county comissioner who was often on opposing sides of those former comissioners now on city-council. So it will still be a challenge. A few hotel owners in the area may also come out against this because it would be a disadvantage to them since public money (federal) is being used for this hotel. They would argue it wouldnt be fair to them since this hotel will compete with thier high end hotels which were built with thier own money without government help. In the end, if the parking deck situation can be worked out, I believe this project will move forward and downtown may have a new high-rise sooner than expected.

"A feasibility study completed in 2008 said the Davie Street and February One Place location would be a good site for a 200-room hotel that would be upward of 15-stories tall."

[beyonce245]

I'm still skeptical about the prospects of this project actually getting built. But I do agree that this announced agreement makes it more plausible, especially with downtown business owners on board. I think it's pretty ingenious to build it onto the Elm Street Center, thereby doing away with the need to build additional meeting space. I expect Chisholm will have to get new cost estimates for this site.

We don't know how tall it would/could be. We'll have to wait and see. But I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a taller building downtown.

Lastly, all sides of this debate need to remember that federal dollars aren't really being used, at least to the extent of the cost of construction. Chisholm would still be required to find a bank to underwrite the construction costs. The feds are simply reimbursing banks for providing super low interest rates.

Cheers and happy New Year to all you UPers out there!

[cityboi]

Happy New Year!

This biggest hurdle will be getting this through city council but I know of at least 4 city council members that would likely support this (Zack Matheny,Robbie Perkins,Jim Kee and Diane Bellamy Small) and you need 5 votes to pass it. Robbie Perkins has already jumped on board since the latest game changers in this project. I think the deciding vote will once again be Nancy Vaughan. As far as height, we dont know how tall but its going to be. This site is far too small for it not to be a high-rise though. There is no way you can build a 200 room hotel here (not to mention a parking deck) under 10-stories. In fact the site is so small, I dont see how they are going to build this without building the hotel on top of the parking deck. The size of the lot is like the foot print of Center Pointe. Of course building the hotel on top of the parking deck would add 3 or 4 floors to the building. Alston stated this hotel will have to be designed so toss the design from the first rendering out. The time table could be a challenge because these funds are only available for a certain amount of time and im sure council will want to see final designs for this project before they vote on it. Zack Matheny would support this for two reasons. He is a downtown development advocate and this project is in his district. Robbie Perkins has already come out publically in support of it. Diane Bellamy Small would support this because it would affect a neighborhood in her district. The Ole Ashboro neighborhood would be part owners. I think Jim Kee would also support this project for other reasons. Honestly it would shock me if Mayor Bill Knight, Danny Thompson, Trudy Wade and Mary Rakestraw came out in support for this. But yea before we can see a groundbreaking we have to get through all the politics first and the group needs to address other issues raised such as with Urban Hotel Group overestimating the amount of money its hotel could take. However those estimates were based on the Elm/Lee Street site. Location can make all the difference in the world even if its 5 or 6 blocks a way.

[Beany]

I like this location much better and I agree with City with respects to the politics. You can pretty much guess who will vote against it.

I am excited about the potential for this project but am still skeptical about whether it will happen.

It will be interesting though to see how they are going to do this. Clearly their original design is no longer applicable for this space. If it stays at 200 rooms it will have to go up!

[Beany]

Here is another story from WFMY: http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=135315&catid=57

This says 200-213 rooms.

[cityboi]

here is the site of the proposed hotel. This old parking garage will be torn down to make way for the hotel and parking deck. The foot print of the old parking garage is basically the footprint of the site. That means we should see something tall if the project moves forward with 200 plus rooms with the addition of a parking deck.

[Beany]

City do you know how they are going to get the entrance on Elm? I cannot envision it unless they do some remodeling to Elm St. Center.

[cityboi]

City do you know how they are going to get the entrance on Elm? I cannot envision it unless they do some remodeling to Elm St. Center.

I think they would have to do some changing in the Elm Street Center. I think its certainly a good idea to have the main entrance on ELm as oppose to Davie Steet or February One Place.

My guess is this hotel would be at least 15-stories. A feasibilty study a few years back called for a 15-story hotel with 200 rooms on this site. But with this project being a luxury hotel, that means the rooms will be a little larger than a typical hotel and that means they'll be less rooms on each floor. As far as the planned deck, the hotel would have to be stacked on top of it. There is no other way I can see this deck being built on this site. The current deck already takes up the entire site. That being said its possible that an additional three, four or maybe even five stories for the deck could push the building up to 18 or 20 stories.

I think its ok to show some skepticism because the past three hotel projects did fall through. But the reasons had more to do with financing. I honestly think the chances of this project being built are greater than past proposals due to the financing method being used here. Its just a matter of city council allowing the redevelopment bonds to be used for the project. Despite all the disinformation thats being put out there by bloggers, no city taxes will be used to fund this project and the hotel developer will be liable for bond money.