major hotel in the works for downtown Greensboro

[Beany]

My guess is 12-15 stories. If a parking deck goes underneath than it would obviously go higher.

Would the parking deck be just for the hotel? Or is the parking deck for public use as well?

[cityboi]

My guess is 12-15 stories. If a parking deck goes underneath than it would obviously go higher.

Would the parking deck be just for the hotel? Or is the parking deck for public use as well?

Dont know. These are questions that need to be answered. I know originally the idea was for having a public deck by the hotel. THat certainly would make sense because more public parking is needed near Elm Street. The size or height of the parking deck portion could be determined by whether or not it will be a public deck. The city will be releasing a lot of federal bond money so I would hope they would make it a public deck. But then again im not sure how it would work having a privately owned building sitting on top of a public parking deck.

[Beany]

Yea that is what I was wondering. If it is a public deck it makes me think it won't be on that lot but maybe a lot very close by. This hasn't been mentioned just trying to figure out how all this is suppose to work. The lot with the old parking deck which is coming down is not very big. Certainly big enough for the hotel but when you add in a parking deck too then it seems really tight. If it is just for the hotel then I could see a small deck underneath it, but if its a large public deck then I almost think it will have to go up separately.

Anyway if this happens I think it will be pretty big. I don't think many people are recognizing the impact. I am not saying it would be huge, but it would be a lot bigger than anything we have seen in some time. It could catalyze another wave of downtown development.

[cityboi]

Yea that is what I was wondering. If it is a public deck it makes me think it won't be on that lot but maybe a lot very close by. This hasn't been mentioned just trying to figure out how all this is suppose to work. The lot with the old parking deck which is coming down is not very big. Certainly big enough for the hotel but when you add in a parking deck too then it seems really tight. If it is just for the hotel then I could see a small deck underneath it, but if its a large public deck then I almost think it will have to go up separately.

Anyway if this happens I think it will be pretty big. I don't think many people are recognizing the impact. I am not saying it would be huge, but it would be a lot bigger than anything we have seen in some time. It could catalyze another wave of downtown development.

The way I understand it is that the deck will be part of the hotel project. That being the case I guess it may not be a public deck. This project has certainly slipped in under the radar and in the beginning a lot of people didnt take it seriously which is understandable. I think we are going to get a pleasant surprise when we see the rendering. Like I said before, the only thing that would really stop this is city council and I think I can confirm at least 4 of the council members that support this project. Diane Bellamy Small and Robbie Perkins have shown public support. Im pretty sure Zack Matheny supports this because its in his district and hes a downtown development advocate. Now there seems to be confirmation that Jim Kee supports it as well. Thats 4 citycouncil members that will likely support releasing the bonds for this project. Remember it only takes 5 votes to pass which means Nancy Vaughn will be the deciding vote. Id say there is a good chance of this passing. Nancy seems to be a more progressive individual and I doubt she'll align herself with the four that will likely vote this down (Mary Rakstraw, Danny Thompson, Mayor Bill Knight and Trudy Wade) In other words, If Nancy Vaughn votes yes on this, this hotel is getting built.

http://greensboropolitics.com/jim-kee-constituents-and-the-hotel/

The hotel site is bound by Elm Street, February One Place and Davie Street. One interesting thing to note is that there was once a 14-story hotel across the street (on Davie) from this site. It was called the King Cotton Hotel, built in 1926 and demolished around 1971. What a tragedy to tear this building down.

speaking of old downtown hotels, here is the original O'Henry Hotel which was located at the corner of Bellemeade and Elm Street (location of the Bellmeade deck). It was torn down in 1979.

[cityboi]

This project has a lot more muscle now. Local investors join in hotel plan. Also it appears that the $200 a night is not set in stone. It could be less than that. Over the past few weeks I think this project has gone from pie in the sky to something thats as realistic as anything thats been built downtown over the past several years.

"Local businessman Randall Kaplan wants to prove the skeptics wrong about a proposed luxury hotel in downtown Greensboro.

As a new partner with the group that proposed the hotel last summer, Kaplan believes the combination of his local investment group and Urban Hotel Group gives added strength to the venture"

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/01/05/article/local_investors_join_in_hotel_plan

[cityboi]

This project has a lot more muscle now. Local investors join in hotel plan. Also it appears that the $200 a night is not set in stone. It could be less than that. Consider this, The Ritz Carlton hotel in uptown Charlotte is under $200 a night. Over the past few weeks I think this project has gone from pie in the sky to something thats as realistic as anything thats been built downtown over the past several years.

"Local businessman Randall Kaplan wants to prove the skeptics wrong about a proposed luxury hotel in downtown Greensboro.

As a new partner with the group that proposed the hotel last summer, Kaplan believes the combination of his local investment group and Urban Hotel Group gives added strength to the venture"

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/01/05/article/local_investors_join_in_hotel_plan

I've also emailed an idea to Ms. Chisholm about what to name this hotel. I do think it should be called The King Cotton Hotel, after the 1926 hotel that was demolished in 1971. The O'Henry was revived so why not the King Cotton? reviving a historical hotel and giving it 1920's luxury character would make this hotel stand out from the rest in the city. The King Cotton was the place all the movers and shakers held their meetings. The hotel was the equivalent of today's Sheraton Four Seasons. Its also a name many in Greensboro are familiar with and this hotel site is just across the street on Davie from where the origianl hotel stood.

Also Here is the website to the Empire and Regency Room at the Elm Street Center. This space would be used for weddings, receptions, galas, conventions, tradeshows, and other events for the hotel.

[Beany]

Naming it the King Cotten is a great idea! I hope they give that serious consideration.

[cityboi]

Naming it the King Cotten is a great idea! I hope they give that serious consideration.

Yes having "King" in the name goes along with the "Empire" and "Regency" room in the Elm Street Center. Its a royal name which fits with the concept of a luxury hotel. I certainly think thats the way to go because it was a historic hotel that preservation Greensboro regret was demolished. They removed a 14-story building from Greensboro's skyline. The layout of the proposed hotel site matches the shape of the original King Cotton Hotel. Another fact is that the King Cotton had about the same number of rooms as the hotel thats being proposed. So please send the idea for the name as well. The more people suggest it, the better. You know there seems to be a number of parallels with Greensboro and Memphis. This developer is from Memphis. Both Greensboro and Memphis had hotels called the King Cotton. Both cities have civil rights museums and both cities have FedEx hubs lol

But I sure hope they return Davie Street to its former glory. Davie Street once looked just like South Elm Street but so called urban renewal destroyed all the buildings including the King Cotton. They built that huge and ugly News & Record Building in its place. They came real close to destroying all the buildings on South Elm Street to make way for a downtown mall. Thank God it didnt happen.

[Rufus]

Been following this for some time. Not from Greensboro, but love the city. Is it still Intercontinental Company's? If so, what brand? Intercontinental Hotels are usually located in places with established luxury presences...i.e.: I could see the next one in Charlotte. Crowne Plaza would be perfect for the city. It's lower than Intercontinental, but still mid-tier luxury...a good fit for the city. Holiday Inn would be a loss for the city. They have gone through rebranding, but it still compares at a lower level than the other two. Hotel Indigo would be much smaller in rooms, but similar in pricing. They have been on an expansion craze in NC for a few years: Asheville and RTP recently. Thoughts?

[cityboi]

details in this project seems to be changing by the week. Im not sure if they will go with a national chain. This project is becoming more and more local in terms of the ownership group thats being put together. Now that im looking at the overall scope of the project, id rather it not be a chain hotel. Chain hotels don't have a lot of character and I think this hotel must have character and be unique if its going to be a great success for downtown. This needs to be locally branded like the O'Henry, Proximity and Grandover. But yes if they do go with a chain, I hope it would be somewhat of a luxury brand. I would hate to see this become a Hampton Inn or Marriott type hotel. That would be a bummer.

[krazeeboi]

I know of several chain hotels that have lots of character; they tend to be the older structures that were rehabbed to house a hotel, but I know of newer hotels that have character also.

[cityboi]

ok its been confirmed. After they raze the old parking structure, they will build the parking deck and the hotel will sit on top of the parking deck. I figured this had to be the case because of the size of the lot. This will be the first building in downtown Greensboro that sits on top of a parking deck. See the video link here....

http://www.digtriad.com/news/gms/article.aspx?storyid=135497&catid=67

There are a few more hurdles. City Council has to approve alotting the bonds to this project and the bond investors have to approve as well. But Justin Catanoso indicates if the development group get the bonds, the hotel will be built. Since the hotel will sit on top of the deck, I would expect this building to be at least 15-stories tall, maybe a little more depending on the foot print of the building. Im hoping they will continue with the idea of street level retail on the first floor of the deck. That is needed on the Davie Street and February One Place sides of the planned deck. But we could very soon see a new high-rise in downtown Greensboro....something thats been long over due.

here is an article in the business journal as well. The article mentions the fact the Elm Street Center ownwer were once talking to Wyndham in earlier efforts to build a hotel behind the center.

http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/stories/2010/01/11/tidbits1.html?b=1263186000%5E2690011

you can see how small the foot print of the old parking structure is. Basically that will be the foot print of the hotel. I'd like to know how many cars can fit in this existing 4 level deck. The development groups wants a 300 car deck and this existing structure doesnt look like it could hold anywhere near 300 cars. That means the new deck could be at least 6 or 7 stories. Now add another 12 or more stories on top of that for the hotel itself!!! One thing is for sure....it will be a tower. My only complaint is that this tower will block a good portion of the Lincoln Financial building as it would be viewed from my apartment

from business journal

"If financing is secured, a luxury hotel could rise on Davie Street behind Elm Street Center in downtown Greensboro. The parking deck, above, would be razed, and a new parking deck would be built with a 200-room hotel tower on top."

[krazeeboi]

If approved, it definitely sounds like this will be a bona-fide addition to the skyline. I could see the garage being five levels, and the hotel in the 10-15 story range, so the entire structure could possibly reach 20 stories.

[luvdowntowngso]

Cityboy, to add to your story, I was in Fincastle's today for lunch and got a bit more info on the project. According to the guys there, they also want the parking lot directly behind Fincastle's. I believe the parking lot is owned by the city. I have no clue how that would factor into the layout of the hotel and parking deck. Jodey was flipping burgers so I was getting info in broken conversation. There is a big loading dock for Elm St.Center between the parking lot and the currnet parking deck, so the whole design of this project is a puzzle to me! I do know that I plan to set up a lawn chair and enjoy watching them destroy that ugly parking deck. I can't wait to see it come down!

[Beany]

Oh cool! So hotel on top of parking deck. That garage isn't particularly large so this will definitely be a tower if built.

Things are moving quick.

[cityboi]

Cityboy, to add to your story, I was in Fincastle's today for lunch and got a bit more info on the project. According to the guys there, they also want the parking lot directly behind Fincastle's. I believe the parking lot is owned by the city. I have no clue how that would factor into the layout of the hotel and parking deck. Jodey was flipping burgers so I was getting info in broken conversation. There is a big loading dock for Elm St.Center between the parking lot and the currnet parking deck, so the whole design of this project is a puzzle to me! I do know that I plan to set up a lawn chair and enjoy watching them destroy that ugly parking deck. I can't wait to see it come down!

Sounds like they may redesign the back of the Elm Street Center and possible move that loading dock somewhere else. But yes its a puzzle LOL. If approved, I will be able to see its progress everyday because all I have to do is look out my door

Krazeeboi, I agree with you in terms of how high this thing could be. In most cases a 300 car garage will be no higher than 3-stories but in this case the lot has a much smaller footprint than a typical parking deck so I can see the deck being around 5-stories and I can guesstimate a 10 to 15 story hotel on top of that.

[cityboi]

here is an interview with the hotel developers. It is revealed that the hotel project will include retail and restaurant(s)

http://www.news-record.com/multimedia?pluid=646&playNowId=4147&pllimit=15&ploffset=0&plkwds=&plterms=&plsort=&plclass=&plstart=&plend=

The developers have said they have been working with national luxury chains for this site before. If this hotel will indeed be a national chain brand, I wonder what the odds are of this being something along the lines of Omni, Westin, InterContinental, Hyatt Regency or even Ritz Carlton? Now don't laugh I know that sounds far fetched but it seems like they wont be going with brands like Hilton or Marriott so that only leaves the luxury brand chains. I do know that the owners of the Elm Street center have had talks with Wyndham, which is a brand that probablly ranks up there with Hyatt. That may also make sense because they do sponsor Greensboro's PGA golf event and ceratinly spectators would stay at the hotel. Greensboro does have a Wyndham Garden Hotel but I consider that a lower brand of that chain much like Hyatt Place is a lower brand of Hyatt Regency.

I would prefer a local brand name like the O'Henry and Proximity but if they do go with a chain, I would hope that it would be an upscale brand. Having a luxury brand like the ones I mentioned above would likely make this hotel the prefered place to stay in Greensboro for those seeking luxury amenities. If this is being marketed as a "luxury hotel" then clearly it would be a mistake to go with hotel chains like Hilton or Marriott and I doubt they will go with those kind of chains. Of the ones I mentioned, Wyndham and Hyatt are the most realistic. While Hyatt Regencies are typically located in big city markets, there are examples of small city markets. Greenville, SC for example.

On a more negative note, Justin from the Triad Business Journal has criticized this project in a column he wrote Friday, basically saying that the numbers just will not work for this hotel and that the ratio of the price rates vs vacancy rates will lead to this hotel being a failure. Here is a direct quote:

"The most important question City Council must answer regarding a proposed luxury hotel for center-city Greensboro is not whether it qualifies for low-interest construction bonds; it probably does. Rather, it’s this: can a $30 million, 200-room, high-priced hotel succeed well enough for long enough to pay back those bonds?

The answer, as you’ll see, is clear: if downtown could support such an amenity, Greensboro would have it already.

What about the feasibility studies produced by Memphis hotel developer Bridget Chisholm and another by her new local partners Randall Kaplan and George House? Candidly, they appear both ill-informed and unrealistic." (I don't know the deal is with Justin because just last week he was on WFMY and sound more enthusiastic about it)

Both the groups proposing the hotel have also done their own feasibility studies with national study groups and they come to a different conclusion. Clearly this hotel will further divide the pie and its no surprise to see people such as Dennis Quaintance (owner of the O'Henry and Proximity Hotels) come out somewhat against the project. This hotel would directly compete with his hotels.

Its going to take two or three years before this hotel comes online. Its still being designed and its going to take a long time to demolish an old deck and build something high qaulity that could reach 15-stories. Economist are already saying the economy is slowly turning around. In two to three years we should see a major recovery in the economy and that means travel will likely be up as well. We now know that this hotel will have above average amenities which will include restaurants and retail. But its a unique hotel experience for Greensboro because guests will be able to walk right outside the hotel and will be steps away from restaurants, bars, night clubs, museums and theater. In this case location helps the project. The hotel site is also less than a block a away from the depot. Yes downtown already has a hotel (The Marriott) and yes its not the most successful hotel in the city. But there is a difference in a hotel such as the Marriott vs a luxury hotel like the O'Henry and Proximity. Guests pay more at those two hotels than the Marriott yet those two hotels are more successful. Also look at where the Marriott is located downtown. Its in a dead part of downtown in terms of street activity, not as pedestrian friendly and is a building intimidating to approach. The main eantrance doesnt event face the street, it faces the hotel parking deck.

City Council will take this issue at the council meeting on Tuesday so we should know by then where this project is headed.

[Beany]

Thanks for the update.

I have a hard time seeing a 200 room luxury hotel myself. 100 rooms would seem to make more sense to me. With that in conjunction with Elm Street Center I could see it. A hotel connected to Elm Street Center makes a great deal of sense. And I think a hotel would do well there. It is just the luxury, number of rooms things which seems a stretch. I agree though this thing will not happen that quickly. By the time it would open the market should be a little different.

[beyonce245]

This thread has become extremely speculative which is why I have avoided it for a while now. I suppose we'll find out on Tuesday if the city council will green light the bond funding.

[cityboi]

ha ha well things seem to be getting stranger. It appears that city council may have accidently authorized the bonds for this project back in December. Mayor Bill Knight told blogger Ed Cone this......

"It would appear that the City Council is not required to take any further action. I didn't know it at the time, but in December we approved the allocation of financing. If what I'm told is correct, this is out of the hands of the Greensboro City Council. I was under the impression that we were only putting our name in line for the availability of money, but as I understand it right now, we are done."

The actual bond authorization would come from the North Carolina Local Government Commission, which will make its decision in May. They would not have any political/bias views. That being said, this may be a done deal for the hotel project if city council doesnt try to back track and revote. Knight will meet with the City Manager and City Attorney to see what happened.

In December Mayor Knight introduced a resolution designating project specific allocation of the Recovery Zone Facility and Economic Development Bonds authorized for the City of Greensboro by the US Treasury...The motion was seconded by Councilmember Perkins and adopted on the following roll call vote: Ayes: Bellamy-Small, Kee, Knight, Matheny, Perkins, Rakestraw, Thompson, Vaughan and Wade. Noes: None.

Councilman Robbie Perkins said this to Ed Cone:

"I would imagine that there will be some Councmembers who will be livid if we don't get another shot at this."

Perkins also thinks the hotel, given its extraordinary financing, has a better chance at success than many people believe, and that it could be the catalyst of additional and beneficial downtown development.

read page 30 and 31 of the minutes for the city council meeting of December 15 and it looks like council already voted. The bonds approved for downtown include the planned hotel, Deep Roots Market grocery store and Miller Lofts (restoration of a historic building on S ELm for 18 apartments and 1 restaurant)

http://greensboro.granicus.com/DocumentViewer.php?file=greensboro_69740fd0103ba59d1efeba8a62ad01f2.pdf

I quickly photoshoped a 15-story building on the hotel site to get an idea how it would impact Greensboro's skyline

If only we could get that 30-story tower next to Center Pointe.

[cityboi]

The News & Record is reporting on city council accidently voting for the bonds. Clearly this is an embarrasment to the mayor, city staff and city council because they voted on 3 bond issues with little to no information. There is wiggle room to take a project out if they don't like it but at this point, I dont think the votes are there to remove it. Also it appears the hotel will remain 8-stories based on the description of the new site. However the new rendering shows 9 stories (the height of the South Eastern Building) so technically you could consider it a high-rise. Apparently the city is considering building the deck on adjacent land instead of under the hotel. Clearly that would reduce the height of the hotel which means its not likely we are going to see a 15-story hotel. Instead of the deck being place beneath the hotel, there will be shops, restaurants, entertainment venues and even office space. So as it turns out this is a mixed-use development and not just a hotel. It appears that the facade of the Elm Street Center is gone and is replaced with the hotel. It may no longer be known as the Elm Street Center since the hotel will be absorbing the facilities.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/01/18/article/city_council_may_have_mistakenly_approved_bond_projects

Hyatt Hammond will be the architect. The new rendering, even though its a rough sketch, looks MUCH better. The design fits in with the fabric of South Elm Street. It looks a lot like a luxury urban hotel in New York with the arch windows and flags on the front.

all the information on the hotel.

http://mm.news-record.com/drupal/files/documents/Public_Records_Copy_of_Urban_Hotel_Group.pdf

Looney & Associates of Texas will be doing the interior work. Look at their hotel portfolio to get an idea of the qaulity we should expect inside this luxury hotel. Don't know If this means anything but most of the hotels they have done are either Hyatt Regency or Ritz Carlton hotels (one of which is the Ritz Carlton Atlanta). They've also done a Westin. So who knows, its possible this could be a Hyatt Regency Hotel or a downtown Wyndham. But in the information package it says the group has already secured a letter of intent from 2 major hotel chains and has secured the commitment of an investment bank.

[beyonce245]

Can you upload an actual copy of the documents you're referring to? They've been taken down from the N&R website.

[cityboi]

wow. good thing I downloaded it. How do I upload it here?

[beyonce245]

wow. good thing I downloaded it. How do I upload it here?

Just try attaching it like you would a photo using the link "click to attach files" below.

[cityboi]

here it is

Public_Records_Copy_of_Urban_Hotel_Group.pdf