The Good News Report

[Reverie39]

In a way I wonder if definitions using money spending could actually be considered broader than definitions using commuting. A lot of people in Raleigh shop/play in Durham and vice versa, for example.

[KJHburg]

7 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

In a way I wonder if definitions using money spending could actually be considered broader than definitions using commuting. A lot of people in Raleigh shop/play in Durham and vice versa, for example.

I was there this morning and was checking traffic around 8 am bumper to bumper I-40 eastbound from Durham County into Wake and vice versa into Durham from 540 to I-885.    My friend lives in north Raleigh works for Glaxo at RTP and goes to DPAC performances all the time.  My cousin lives in Fuquay in southern Wake and shops at her favorite mall in Durham Streets of Southpoint.  The locals consider it one metro area 2 big cities 29 miles apart (Dallas and Fort Worth are 33 miles apart)  The media considers it one and if you ask anyone from outside the area they consider it one.  Unique cities but together as one with RTP and the surrounding area in both Wake and Durham counties as the employment hub for the region.   Brier Creek area of Raleigh straddles the county line or as the Commerce Dept would put it 2 separate metro areas.  

[CLT2014]

21 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

In a way I wonder if definitions using money spending could actually be considered broader than definitions using commuting. A lot of people in Raleigh shop/play in Durham and vice versa, for example.

The hard thing with spending money is the vast majority of somebody's expenses are going to be in the county they live in. Take somebody that lives in Rowan County / Salisbury (part of the Charlotte metro area). The vast majority of their expenses will be buying groceries in Rowan County, going to a Target/Walmart/Home Depot/Marshalls, et... in Rowan County, buying gas in Rowan County, et... The extent of their purchases in the core county of Mecklenburg may amount to just one anniversary dinner in Uptown Charlotte, two Panthers games, and a flight from CLT airport. 

[tozmervo]

56 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

The hard thing with spending money is the vast majority of somebody's expenses are going to be in the county they live in. Take somebody that lives in Rowan County / Salisbury (part of the Charlotte metro area). The vast majority of their expenses will be buying groceries in Rowan County, going to a Target/Walmart/Home Depot/Marshalls, et... in Rowan County, buying gas in Rowan County, et... The extent of their purchases in the core county of Mecklenburg may amount to just one anniversary dinner in Uptown Charlotte, two Panthers games, and a flight from CLT airport. 

IKEA probably brings in more county sales tax revenue than the Panthers. 

[CLT2014]

16 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

IKEA probably brings in more county sales tax revenue than the Panthers. 

Yep, and then a Rowan County residents may spend more money in Florida for 7 days on a $3,000 vacation than they spend in Mecklenburg all year. The amount of work to exclude certain types of expenses (vacations) and control to just expenses related to their life in the metro area just seems sort of impossible to do accurately, especially when 95% of those expenses are usually going to be in the county somebody lives in.  Like if a Cabarrus resident brings their own lunch to work in Uptown Charlotte and fills up their gas in Cabarrus.... they may spend very little money in Mecklenburg despite going there 3 times a week. Meanwhile, a person that came to Mecklenburg once to buy $3,000 in furniture at Pottery Barn and then returned to their suburban county for the other 364 days may look like they are more a part of the metro. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

From the Atlanta Business Chronicle talking about again South End and our uptown some interesting observations from the boys down south about how tenants are choosing markets like Midtown in Atlanta, Southend in Charlotte and Uptown in Dallas (which is different than downtown Dallas).  Bold my emphasis:

 

""I recently tried to take a short break from writing about Atlanta real estate by taking a road trip to Charlotte, North Carolina. But every second of it, I couldn't help but point out so many similarities between the built environment of the Queen City and the place I call home: outmoded towers in the core of the city linked by enclosed pedestrian bridges above the streets; a crowded food hall with an assortment of cuisines and pricy drinks; beloved neighborhoods seeing an influx of apartment construction; and old warehouses converted into offices.

As we've observed ad nauseam over the past few years, companies are flocking to dynamic workspaces near restaurants, bars and other amenities that appeal to young professionals. Assuming their workers can stomach the costs of rent, they often live close enough to walk, bike or take public transit to their jobs.

 

This is taking place on the Atlanta BeltLine's Eastside Trail, where employers like BlackRock, Mailchimp and WPP are carving out workspaces for their local employees. The same is true for Airbnb, Ford Motor Co., and Flock Safety in West Midtown. Some of Atlanta's most prolific developers are heavily targeting these areas for new offices and apartments.

That same trend can be found in Charlotte's South End, a former warehouse district turned office and entertainment hub. It's home to a high concentration of young residents, who can often be found day and night traversing a 3.5-mile pedestrian path beside a light rail line known as the Charlotte Rail-Trail.

 

Developers are sniffing out opportunities in these prized areas. Consider Atlanta-based Portman Holdings, which is building a sleek yet airy office tower called The Line next to the Charlotte Rail-Trail. Closer to home, the firm is constructing offices and retail across from Krog Street Market. It's also working with property owners to transform a gritty stretch of Ponce de Leon Avenue near the Eastside Trail into offices and residential units.

Like the Eastside Trail or Midtown in Atlanta, companies are choosing South End in Charlotte hoping to woo young talent by being close to hip restaurants, breweries and bars. It's where Lowe's planted a tech hub. It's also where companies such as Alston & Bird, Allstate Corp., Dimensional Fund Advisors and EY have relocated their offices.

South End appears to be stealing some of the thunder of Uptown, Charlotte's central business district. So far this year, South End has had 485,000 square feet of positive net absorption, compared with 225,000 of negative net absorption in Uptown, according to a third quarter report from commercial real estate services firm Jones Lange LaSalle (JLL).

“It’s not that Uptown isn’t vibrant, but it definitely doesn’t have the same energy and up-and-comingness, if you will, that South End has,” Jason Solomon, an Alston & Bird partner, told Axios Charlotte shortly after the firm announced its decision to move its office.

Of course, the same sentiment rings true in Atlanta; just swap out the names of the neighborhoods. Midtown has eclipsed Buckhead and Downtown when it comes to net absorption for space and office construction. Demand is so strong to locate close to the BeltLine that 725 Ponce can offer some of the highest rents in the city.

That dynamic can also be found in Dallas, another city often compared to Atlanta. Uptown Dallas, a lively hub for young professionals who crave a district with both day and night activities, has outperformed Downtown Dallas when it comes to both leasing and average asking rents.

The success of other Atlanta office hubs is forcing real estate firms and leaders in Buckhead and Downtown to find innovative ways to restore these districts. It's leading to discussions in the real estate world about what to do with older office buildings, such as padding them with retail and spec suites or converting them into residential units.

Executives at CIM Group, the firm creating Centennial Yards on top of old parking lots and rail lines Downtown, has often stated infusing that area with residents could help the district's energy.

While I was in Charlotte, I noticed that Uptown may have stiff competition from South End, but the center of the city did not feel like a ghost town. I wonder how much of that is attributable to the apartments and condos nestled in between hotels and office towers.

BIG NUMBERS

Here's a peek at how much office space costs (per-square-foot) in different business districts within Atlanta, Charlotte and Dallas, three cities often compared to one another. The below data is courtesy of JLL's estimates for the third quarter of this year:

Average asking rent in Atlanta (per square foot):

Buckhead: $38.20
Midtown: $43.60
Downtown: $31.72
Average asking rent in Charlotte (per square foot):

FreeMoreWest: $39.27
Midtown/South End: $42.43
NoDa/Plaza Midwood: $38.77
Uptown: $37.14
Average asking rent in Dallas (per square foot):

Dallas CBD: $29.67
Uptown/Oak Lawn: $59.94""

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2022/11/12/gandt-column-atlanta-charlotte-dallas-office.html

[elrodvt]

Thanks for the article.  Not sure why it's good news but whatever. 

The authors bar is far too low:

“It’s not that Uptown isn’t vibrant,"

Ummm. No, it **IS** that uptown is not vibrant!

It's *not even close* to vibrant. Charlotte did right with sports and Romare to set the stage to build a vibrant uptown. Then, and most of you know a lot more than me about this, my perception is many idiotic anti urban state rules, timidity and the past travesties of 277 and destruction of black neighborhoods prevented zoning and other policies that could've made it a success. Can it be fixed? In my opinion, not in a state still dominated by conservative think. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by elrodvt

[J-Rob]

8 hours ago, elrodvt said:

In my opinion, not in a state still dominated by conservative think.

Do you mind explaining this more? I am genuinely and non-confrontationally curious.  The comments about 277 and neighborhood destruction in the past make sense, but I am not sure I make the connection to how left-leaning state (legislature?) would create a more vibrant Uptown today.

[kermit]

23 hours ago, J-Rob said:

Do you mind explaining this more? I am genuinely and non-confrontationally curious.  The comments about 277 and neighborhood destruction in the past make sense, but I am not sure I make the connection to how left-leaning state (legislature?) would create a more vibrant Uptown today.

Not trying to speak for others here but IMO there are two issues with the NCGA that makes them anti-urban

The first is the NCGA has disproportionate representation for small towns and rural areas (as  most legislative bodies do). This means that at appropriations time money for explicitly urban things (sidewalks, bike lanes, transit, parks, social welfare, education, etc.) is intentionally restricted, reduced or redirected. Just look at how NCDOT expenditures are allocated (e.g. Shelby bypass) to see this process in action. The way that funds are spent are an issue as well -- most highway dollars are being spent in ways that aid suburbanites who want to drive to town, rather than being spent to benefit urban residents themselves.  Our economic development policy also steers recruitment away from Charlotte and Raleigh. Our policy explicitly offers higher incentives amounts for rural projects.

The second characteristic of the NCGA which is bad for cities is its gerrymandering which vastly over represents the right. This leads to far too many culture war grandstanding issues (e.g. HB2 and medicaid expansion) that make NC's urban areas look backwards to most potential migrants from other out of state urban areas to Charlotte and Raleigh (abortion policy would be another element of this, thankfully we avoided republican super majorities so we have put this debate off for another couple of years). The degree to which this impacts migration will be debated by many, but I can't imagine that divisive political activity makes NC a more attractive destination for high-skill, high-wage folks which is the modern engine of economic development  (see CoStar's Richmond offices for a reference point).

I can understand the fiscal perspective of the right, most of NC's non-coastal rural areas have been declining for decades, the representatives of those places should be working to make them more attractive places to live and work. However, the VAST majority of the state's tax revenue comes from metro Charlotte and Raleigh. Starving those economic engines of investment, and making it harder for them to grow in sustainable ways (e.g. by not funding a significant portion of transit development) is simply undermining NC’s future.

EDIT: I'll add that NC's dueling big cities don't help matters much. There is certainly legislative competition between the two of them for resources. If we had one large urban area of 4 million (roughly CLT+RGH) instead of three vaguely large metros I would bet the big city would do better with state budget allocations (like Atlanta, Chicago and Seattle)

Edit 2: I forgot one other big issue. NC is a Dillion’s rule state which means no city can pass any ordinance without approval from the state. This top-down control by the NCGA means that Charlotte can’t just decide to raise our sales tax to fund transit without permission of the NCGA. This system of governance makes cities unable to leverage their considerable assets to produce change.

Edited November 17, 2022 by kermit

[AirNostrumMAD]

3 hours ago, J-Rob said:

Do you mind explaining this more? I am genuinely and non-confrontationally curious.  The comments about 277 and neighborhood destruction in the past make sense, but I am not sure I make the connection to how left-leaning state (legislature?) would create a more vibrant Uptown today.

It gets pretty complex so apologies for being overly generic and short. 

But basically the NC GOP has enough power to really diminish any Democratic priorities. One core principle of Democrats is sustainability and going green. The Republicans openly mock green politics and sustainability. 

So you have state governments ran by Democrats actively supporting municipalities and cities with sticks and carrots with Bike Infrastructure, encouraging density, middle housing, mass transit, Multifamily residential units, EV charging, etc. Even the state senators will get involved in local matters of going green, etc. if the state politicians gets bogged down in infighting. Add to them fighting for Federal $$$. A lot of these urban issues are interconnected and is like a stack of Jenga and IMO all those issues (density, zoning laws, mass transit, street grids, etc) are all sort of dependent on each other. 

Then you have states openly hostile to it. Mass transit is a waste, not supporting meaningful bike measures (have a few bike lanes but are underutilized due to limited network and infrastructure), broad swath that views green politics as woke garbage, they actively restrict what municipalities can  impose as far as zoning laws, etc and it makes meaningful density (outside of a few luxury towers or SouthEnd style developments full of podium parking and in certain pockets rather than the broader city/metropolitan area). I think that is born out of the belief that government should stay out because they only mess things up. The argument for that being the free market will do the right thing. 
 

The Democratic Party hasn’t really had much power in NC at all to pass sweeping changes in regards to urbanity. I don’t really see Dems gaining a trifecta in NC to pass those sweeping bills to transform the cities (which the cities try to do on their own. But again. It’s so piecemeal or inadequate. Bike lanes - again as an example. People in Charlotte will get mad a lane was taken away from vehicles and they see no one riding the nice bike lane. The problem is. Bike lanes needs to be nearly everywhere. Then a meaningful amount will use them. That happens in these states with red governments or split government. They can’t get enough funds for urban things, the cities try to do it themselves (such as 1 Mile streetcars because they can’t build light rail) and again, there is slight backlash from the public because they see a strip of isolated bike lane underutilized along a busy road, they are behind slow streetcars with no one on it that goes 1 Mile. Etc. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[JeanClt]

Funny thing is that conservative policy has the unintended (by conservatives) effect of sprawl and suburban land use from cities that creeps into rural land. I’ve heard a lot of complaints on this sprawl and this is due to the people they vote into state legislature that actively bar cities from urban design and incentives that would keep them from sprawling. Instead they blame people for moving to NC and sometimes blame people on having “too many children” (natural growth) which is exacerbated by new residents moving. It’s interesting because it shows how parties and ideology deal with different sides of the same coin without realizing how linked we all are and doing something to one group or area affects the other group or surrounding area.

[elrodvt]

4 hours ago, J-Rob said:

Do you mind explaining this more? I am genuinely and non-confrontationally curious.  The comments about 277 and neighborhood destruction in the past make sense, but I am not sure I make the connection to how left-leaning state (legislature?) would create a more vibrant Uptown today.

At this point others have provided  much better answers than I can! Thanks for that.

[kermit]

On 11/16/2022 at 2:08 PM, JeanClt said:

Funny thing is that conservative policy has the unintended (by conservatives) effect of sprawl and suburban land use from cities that creeps into rural land. I’ve heard a lot of complaints on this sprawl and this is due to the people they vote into state legislature that actively bar cities from urban design and incentives that would keep them from sprawling. Instead they blame people for moving to NC and sometimes blame people on having “too many children” (natural growth) which is exacerbated by new residents moving. It’s interesting because it shows how parties and ideology deal with different sides of the same coin without realizing how linked we all are and doing something to one group or area affects the other group or surrounding area.

Not sure I would say unintended. If you look at the people at NCDOTin positions of power (particularly the board members), the majority are real estate developers or attorneys who work for developers. Most road building decisions are made through the lens of maximizing sprawl because that makes these folks richer (either directly or indirectly). Since most non-urban counties view sprawl as economic development, I would bet the NCGA is made up of a huge majority of sprawl boosters. 

Even lefty pols in NC will act like the a new, isolated, subdivision built on former farmland is a boon to their community.

Edited November 18, 2022 by kermit

[JHart]

23 hours ago, kermit said:

Most road building decisions are made through the lens of maximizing sprawl because that makes these folks richer

There is the personal gain motif but the NCDOT also supports sprawl as a funding mechanism for itself. 40% of NCDOT revenue from gas taxes (80% from gasoline vs 20% from diesel even though almost all degradation of roads is caused by commercial vehicles), 25% comes from federal funding which again is primarily gas taxes at the federal level,  and 16% from highway use taxes which again is majority funded by personal vehicles. 

81% of revenue is tied to keeping NC residents on the roads, driving as much as possible. 

Only 6% of NCDOT spending goes towards "other modes" with over half of that going towards aviation, with just 1.2% for public transit. NCDOT spends almost the same amount of money on 12 ferries as they do on public transit for the entire state! ($51M vs $58M)

[AirNostrumMAD]

4 minutes ago, JHart said:

There is the personal gain motif but the NCDOT also supports sprawl as a funding mechanism for itself. 40% of NCDOT revenue from gas taxes (80% from gasoline vs 20% from diesel even though almost all degradation of roads is caused by commercial vehicles), 25% comes from federal funding which again is primarily gas taxes at the federal level,  and 16% from highway use taxes which again is majority funded by personal vehicles. 

81% of revenue is tied to keeping NC residents on the roads, driving as much as possible. 

Only 6% of NCDOT spending goes towards "other modes" with over half of that going towards aviation, with just 1.2% for public transit. NCDOT spends almost the same amount of money on 12 ferries as they do on public transit for the entire state! ($51M vs $58M)

This is a another perfect example of how baked in the sprawl is. There’s so many ways of how systemic the sprawl is when you really dig in. And it’s designed to do so. 

[elrodvt]

4 hours ago, JHart said:

There is the personal gain motif but the NCDOT also supports sprawl as a funding mechanism for itself. 40% of NCDOT revenue from gas taxes (80% from gasoline vs 20% from diesel even though almost all degradation of roads is caused by commercial vehicles), 25% comes from federal funding which again is primarily gas taxes at the federal level,  and 16% from highway use taxes which again is majority funded by personal vehicles. 

81% of revenue is tied to keeping NC residents on the roads, driving as much as possible. 

Only 6% of NCDOT spending goes towards "other modes" with over half of that going towards aviation, with just 1.2% for public transit. NCDOT spends almost the same amount of money on 12 ferries as they do on public transit for the entire state! ($51M vs $58M)

It's ridiculous. But at least we're being proactive to be sure EV's pay for road use to make sure they don't have an unfair advantage. While all the CO2 emissions will cost us trillions to protect coastal cities with no one paying and certainly not the people who're getting rich off it. Brilliant. 

[JeanClt]

It's ridiculous. But at least we're being proactive to be sure EV's pay for road use to make sure they don't have an unfair advantage. While all the CO2 emissions will cost us trillions to protect coastal cities with no one paying and certainly not the people who're getting rich off it. Brilliant. 

Especially when most of road damage is caused by commercial trucks and heavy weight vehicles rather than personal vehicles. Let alone those EVs!

[NcSc74]

On 11/16/2022 at 10:31 AM, kermit said:

Not trying to speak for others here but IMO there are two issues with the NCGA that makes them anti-urban

The first is the NCGA has disproportionate representation for small towns and rural areas (as  most legislative bodies do). This means that at appropriations time money for explicitly urban things (sidewalks, bike lanes, transit, parks, social welfare, education, etc.) is intentionally restricted, reduced or redirected. Just look at how NCDOT expenditures are allocated (e.g. Shelby bypass) to see this process in action. The way that funds are spent are an issue as well -- most highway dollars are being spent in ways that aid suburbanites who want to drive to town, rather than being spent to benefit urban residents themselves.  Our economic development policy also steers recruitment away from Charlotte and Raleigh. Our policy explicitly offers higher incentives amounts for rural projects.

The second characteristic of the NCGA which is bad for cities is its gerrymandering which vastly over represents the right. This leads to far too many culture war grandstanding issues (e.g. HB2 and medicaid expansion) that make NC's urban areas look backwards to most potential migrants from other out of state urban areas to Charlotte and Raleigh (abortion policy would be another element of this, thankfully we avoided republican super majorities so we have put this debate off for another couple of years). The degree to which this impacts migration will be debated by many, but I can't imagine that divisive political activity makes NC a more attractive destination for high-skill, high-wage folks which is the modern engine of economic development  (see CoStar's Richmond offices for a reference point).

I can understand the fiscal perspective of the right, most of NC's non-coastal rural areas have been declining for decades, the representatives of those places should be working to make them more attractive places to live and work. However, the VAST majority of the state's tax revenue comes from metro Charlotte and Raleigh. Starving those economic engines of investment, and making it harder for them to grow in sustainable ways (e.g. by not funding a significant portion of transit development) is simply undermining NC’s future.

EDIT: I'll add that NC's dueling big cities don't help matters much. There is certainly legislative competition between the two of them for resources. If we had one large urban area of 4 million (roughly CLT+RGH) instead of three vaguely large metros I would bet the big city would do better with state budget allocations (like Atlanta, Chicago and Seattle)

Edit 2: I forgot one other big issue. NC is a Dillion’s rule state which means no city can pass any ordinance without approval from the state. This top-down control by the NCGA means that Charlotte can’t just decide to raise our sales tax to fund transit without permission of the NCGA. This system of governance makes cities unable to leverage their considerable assets to produce change.

I subscribe to a channel on youtube called not just bikes and they explain what is going on with American cities and their addiction to sprawl.  According to them what is happening in NC is a by product of NC booming after WW2. Look at pre war large cities; dont have to go far to see the stark differences. Dense built up cores that you can see and feel the difference. IMO there is only one city in NC that retained its pre war urban core that urban renewal didnt touch; Ashville, and to some extent Wilmington. But those cities were not large enough then to warrant big urban projects and schemes. Imagine Charlotte with an extended core around uptown like Asheville. There would be no argument about vibrant anything as the number of people living around uptown would be massive.  Soo here we are in 2022 and Charlotte wants to build big but NC politics are stuck in the 50's. The only way out is to vote in the right folks but we all know thats a pipe dream. I'm afraid what you see is what you gonna get until peer cities start to leave NC cities behind.

[KJHburg]

The ACC championship this past weekend was the best in attendance since 2019.

""The ACC Football Championship Game this weekend attracted its largest crowd since 2019, with announced attendance of 64,115 for Clemson’s 39-10 blowout win over North Carolina at Bank of America Stadium in Charlotte.

Last year, Pittsburgh defeated Wake Forest 45-21 in the championship game. Attendance was 57,856. Stadium capacity is 75,000. Seats in the upper half of the upper level in the endzone and corners were covered with tarps, reducing capacity.

The ACC, like most leagues and teams, defines attendance as tickets sold and distributed, not actual turnstile counts.""
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2022/12/06/charlotte-sports-foundation-acc.html

[Reverie39]

The Carolinas are a hub of college sports, basketball in NC and football in SC. Charlotte is in a prime location to continue hosting massive college sports events like this. Obviously the ACC championship is locked in but maybe it's time to see some March Madness Final Fours and related events.

[Windsurfer]

On 11/19/2022 at 11:37 AM, NcSc74 said:

I subscribe to a channel on youtube called not just bikes and they explain what is going on with American cities and their addiction to sprawl.  According to them what is happening in NC is a by product of NC booming after WW2. Look at pre war large cities; dont have to go far to see the stark differences. Dense built up cores that you can see and feel the difference. IMO there is only one city in NC that retained its pre war urban core that urban renewal didnt touch; Ashville, and to some extent Wilmington. But those cities were not large enough then to warrant big urban projects and schemes. Imagine Charlotte with an extended core around uptown like Asheville. There would be no argument about vibrant anything as the number of people living around uptown would be massive.  Soo here we are in 2022 and Charlotte wants to build big but NC politics are stuck in the 50's. The only way out is to vote in the right folks but we all know thats a pipe dream. I'm afraid what you see is what you gonna get until peer cities start to leave NC cities behind.

I probably sound like a broken record, but one reason we DO have a pretty decent core is because it took so long to build 485.  Look at the cities that jumped on the beltway fad of the 60s and 70s.....Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, etc.    Imagine if the folks at Ballentyne hadn't been successful lobbying to get 484 finished (especially their part), how much more of a core we'd have now. I drove 485 to Matthews yesterday morning from Huntersville. It was about 40 miles. It took 5 mins longer than driving through town.  Roads, especially beltways, encourage, enable and promote sprawl.    There, I said it.

[KJHburg]

Believe me I am glad I-485 was built.  It would not have been quicker to go through town if all those trucks were going through the city as well.  Every major worldwide city has a beltway around it Paris, London,  major Chinese cities, Mexico City etc.  This region is growing and it is densifying at the same time especially in the city of Charlotte.  But there is real affordability problems in the inner city neighborhoods.  You can not build affordable housing much in the inner city of Charlotte the land is too expensive.  

[JeanClt]

I think policy is left out of the equation a lot of the time. There are laws that could be drafted to mitigate these issues. There must be some failure point(s) that prevent these from getting proposed, passed, and or enforced.

[kermit]

10 hours ago, KJHburg said:

 But there is real affordability problems in the inner city neighborhoods.  You can not build affordable housing much in the inner city of Charlotte the land is too expensive.  

Tokyo and Berlin (and Chicago) would like to have a word…

Edited December 9, 2022 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Believe me I am glad I-485 was built.  It would not have been quicker to go through town if all those trucks were going through the city as well.  Every major worldwide city has a beltway around it Paris, London,  major Chinese cities, Mexico City etc.  This region is growing and it is densifying at the same time especially in the city of Charlotte.  But there is real affordability problems in the inner city neighborhoods.  You can not build affordable housing much in the inner city of Charlotte the land is too expensive.  

Well, if everyone else is doing it.....

If we had poured half the money of the total cost of I-485 into improving 77 and 74, don't you think going directly through town wouldn't be such a pain?  I had a state DOT planner tell me one time many moons ago, "It's a little secret among us planners that development follows roads, not usually the other way around".  Developers know this and encourage roads that bust apart family farms and enable their quick-buck schemes. It's their model. We all know it.