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Downtown Norfolk Progress


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Has anyone heard anything about the Belmont? They have been advertising like crazy. I hope they aren't sitting empty.

I don't know. They had a sales office on Bute Street. I went in there and dissed them in front of customers filling out applications. Screw these rich A holes out to clobber the young people. They moved the office, and rented out the unit.

How many people are really willing to shell out $1600-$1700 a month for a two bedroom apartment? The building I live in is fairly empty (lots of damage occurred during the noreaster and some people bailed because of that, others are leaving the area.) It's much cheaper, and I still think it's too much. Meanwhile, other buildings nearby have vacancies. Nothing about Hampton Roads is worth $1700 a month. You can rent a nice 4 bedroom SFH in a nice neighborhood in Virginia Beach for that kind of money. Most of the young professional people I know bought houses. None of them would ever pay that kind of money to rent an apartment.

The building along Bute looks pretty full. The big buildings (the two) along Brambleton look like they have some occupancy. But I'm slightly suspicious that there are timers on lights. I haven't paid that much attention. I was talking to a visitor that was in town from Houston that wanted to check out the hacker space, and I was telling him about the housing bubble here and how those buildings were a result of it. There wasn't a window lit in the one building closest to Bousch street, the backside facing the parking garage. It was kind of eerie, like all of the condo towers in other areas you read about. Housing oversupply.

Yes, I'm currently paying $1875 a month in rent, I could afford to rent in the Belmont if I cared. That's split across 3 places, and will be going down.

But one thing to remember. There are companies that rent corporate housing. I used to work for one years ago that paid some $3000/mo for a house over off of Great Neck. It was $1200 for the house (3bd/2bath) and then $1500 to rent the beds and couches. They didn't really care, because they were a gov't contractor getting loads of our tax dollars. The president even dissed Hampton Roads, saying "this is hampton roads, you don't pay real salaries here." Direct quote. So there may be a market from corporate types for those apartments. I know of corporate rented places over on Granby. But there is only going to be so much demand for that.

I think the rents are above navy housing allowance, but perhaps they will split an apartment rent into two and let two dudes rent a 2 bedroom or something. I dunno. Most slumlords here track the BHA numbers I think. I'd be willing to bet lots of Navy people skip renting now and just buy, cause you know, you can't lose.

Software installs done, rant done. I emailed the Belmont anyways to see if they will give up the occupancy #s. Probably not.

By the way, I know people who worked for apartment buildings in other cities and they told me that it was part of their job every week to call all of the competitors, and trade all of the numbers with them. What their rents are, what their rents will be, all upcoming specials, etc. And the others did the same. They traded this openly and the decision makers used the spreadsheet numbers to price fix the rents. The people I know didn't really get the downside to this, or that it's possibly illegal.

I noticed that a storage unit I used to rent from in Chesapeake, the guy at the counter pretty much told me they do the same thing with the other nearby storage units. So perhaps it's popular everywhere. Note, storage units often lie about the square footage, which is the only metric you have to compare them. It's in the contract that all numbers are estimates. This is a big deal given the high cost per square foot of the space, and pretty sleezy.

Edited by Telmnstr
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The building along Bute looks pretty full. The big buildings (the two) along Brambleton look like they have some occupancy. But I'm slightly suspicious that there are timers on lights. I haven't paid that much attention. I was talking to a visitor that was in town from Houston that wanted to check out the hacker space, and I was telling him about the housing bubble here and how those buildings were a result of it. There wasn't a window lit in the one building closest to Bousch street, the backside facing the parking garage. It was kind of eerie, like all of the condo towers in other areas you read about. Housing oversupply.

Software installs done, rant done. I emailed the Belmont anyways to see if they will give up the occupancy #s. Probably not.

Would they really go through all that and waste electricty just so the building looks active? What leads you to believe that it's not just people actually living there? & I hope tha they e-mail you back.. I'm kind of curious.

They have been advertising like crazy. I've seen advertisements in multiple downtown businesses, MacArthur Center, Scope Arena, Harbor Park, the Virginian Pilot/Pilotonline, etc.

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Would they really go through all that and waste electricty just so the building looks active? What leads you to believe that it's not just people actually living there? & I hope tha they e-mail you back.. I'm kind of curious.

They have been advertising like crazy. I've seen advertisements in multiple downtown businesses, MacArthur Center, Scope Arena, Harbor Park, the Virginian Pilot/Pilotonline, etc.

No email reply from them yet.

No idea if they would go through that or not. If I were them, I probably would :-) I assume the power to apartments is metered separately and billed via Dominion so that would make it less likely.

Who knows.

Lots of for-rent signs down Hampton Blvd. Good number of empties in my building. Craigslist full of first month free ads.

Everybody must be leaving Hampton Roads, or moving back in with their parents or something.

There is nothing in this region to justify high housing prices. I've said it a million times :-) This area by far and large is pretty much garbage. No offense, I live here too, but yes, the area is garbage.

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No email reply from them yet.

No idea if they would go through that or not. If I were them, I probably would :-) I assume the power to apartments is metered separately and billed via Dominion so that would make it less likely.

Who knows.

Lots of for-rent signs down Hampton Blvd. Good number of empties in my building. Craigslist full of first month free ads.

Everybody must be leaving Hampton Roads, or moving back in with their parents or something.

There is nothing in this region to justify high housing prices. I've said it a million times :-) This area by far and large is pretty much garbage. No offense, I live here too, but yes, the area is garbage.

I am shocked about the rates in some of these new places. It's like they are trying to move the area into NoVa prices without any of the amenities/salaries. They probably get some tax write offs or something so if half sit empty, who cares?

I see the rental turnover in Ghent and Freemason growing. Maybe it is all the new student housing at ODU or the oversupply of apartments from the past two years. You would think the rates would go down but they are still pretty static.

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This area by far and large is pretty much garbage. No offense, I live here too, but yes, the area is garbage.

What makes you say this? I think the area is great. Norfolk City may be garbage... Virginia Beach City may be garbage.. but the combination of the 7 deadly cities makes the area great.

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Its called supply and demand...that's it. We live in a polycentric (not monocentric) region with little room to sprawl. Therefore prices will be higher as barriers to develop or barriers to travel increase. I have yet to actually see physical proof of this supposed "Navy housing allowance scandal" that everyone freaks out about. I have also yet to see reports about turnover rates or tenures radically changing in Ghent, Norfolk, or any other city in the region. Last I checked rents were high all over...the Oceanfront, Shore drive, Town center, Olde Towne, even Greenbriar.

The fact is that 1.7 million people live here, and many of them love living here, myself included. I love it so much, I drive home every single weekend (leaving the coveted Richmond) in order to be home where I feel a sense of normalcy, direction and stakeholdership.

Let's face it. Landlords aren't fixing prices or getting a tax abatement or paying off tax assessors or cutting a deal with ODU's off-campus housing program or any other supposed hypothetical wonder. They know that they can charge certain prices, and certain folks who can afford will pay, given a 5-7% vacancy rate. Which means that 1 in 20 properties will have a "for rent" sign out front (that is if the property has only 1 unit). If a property has 20 units; guess what: a "for rent" sign is almost guaranteed to be outside.

I paid $800 for a 2 bed in Ghent last year (divided by two people). I know folks who made lots more, and spent lots more for a better apt than what I had.

As far as the Belmont goes...that building was built as a TOD development with the intention of being finished at the same time as light-rail. Now that light-rail is behind schedule...

Lastly, Hampton Roads has an extremely high quality of life, hundreds of miles of waterfront property and beaches, a stable economy (Virginia Beach had the 5th highest median family income among large cities in 2003), and low unemployment. Can we please stifle the negativity now? It's simply not founded.

Edited by mlsimons
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Without question the prices locally are pretty questionable and thats me putting it nicely! I dont think Tel is a complainer with all due respect I think he's just an upfront person who speaks his mind. That said, the prices don't fit the area locally. I cant tell you how many were living above there means locally and weren't truly able to afford the homes they purchased or condos etc.! The area isnt garbage to me but, we MUST respect members rights to speak there mind. Peoples view of the world is different and I dont expect everyone to see the glass half full. Depending on the topic I can be difficult myself I must admit!

The area has its issues but, with all due respect visit West Virginia and other states with less going on and locally seems like D.C or Atlanta! Yes, Norfolk/Va BEach/Peninsula isn't D.C or Atlanta or NYC but, theres much we take for granted. The waterways and beaches are ALL AROUND. We have good schools and a stable local economy due to the military and other government entities! We have good colleges and some historic ones as well. We have new and exciting things here as well like light rail and more to come. Norfolk is coming out of being GOOD OLD VIRGINIA. Some of the old time thinking is still in LOCAL and STATE government and until we totally get to the new generation of thinking it will be a process. Heck, at 36 I find myself stuck in some old ways so imagine what a 55-70 years old person who is VA born and breed my think!

VA (Central/Southeastern) is on the verge and given time it will prosper but, only if we think and say what we want. If we are positive than maybe things will change. Ive traveled the USA and noticed we have a mentality here that were not worthy or on the level of other places. WE keep complaining about being on the map and last I checked som e pretty good people in all fields are from here and its seen in how we see progress as well. The economy doesnt favor a boom in skyscraper building etc.! Growth happens when choices are made to promote growth! When our area is totally ready to deal with growth like Charlotte and Atlanta have been, we will experience a explosion in business and residential growth. Until then I like what I see so far, EFFORT. Thats more than some other cities in the USA are seeing. We got a new building in the last 5 years. Many metros havent for 10 or more years! We got light rail and its costly! WHY? Were making progress!

That said, we must still respect our fellow members views and help them to see the positive but, not demand they see it or be critical of them for not seeing what we see. People see with there eyes mostly and not there eyes,soul,spirit and brain as well as WISDOM! Be a light in darkness our area needs it! L.G.N.Mshades.gifthumbsup.gif

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Its called supply and demand...that's it. We live in a polycentric (not monocentric) region with little room to sprawl. Therefore prices will be higher as barriers to develop or barriers to travel increase. I have yet to actually see physical proof of this supposed "Navy housing allowance scandal" that everyone freaks out about. I have also yet to see reports about turnover rates or tenures radically changing in Ghent, Norfolk, or any other city in the region. Last I checked rents were high all over...the Oceanfront, Shore drive, Town center, Olde Towne, even Greenbriar.

The fact is that 1.7 million people live here, and many of them love living here, myself included. I love it so much, I drive home every single weekend (leaving the coveted Richmond) in order to be home where I feel a sense of normalcy, direction and stakeholdership.

Let's face it. Landlords aren't fixing prices or getting a tax abatement or paying off tax assessors or cutting a deal with ODU's off-campus housing program or any other supposed hypothetical wonder. They know that they can charge certain prices, and certain folks who can afford will pay, given a 5-7% vacancy rate. Which means that 1 in 20 properties will have a "for rent" sign out front (that is if the property has only 1 unit). If a property has 20 units; guess what: a "for rent" sign is almost guaranteed to be outside.

I paid $800 for a 2 bed in Ghent last year (divided by two people). I know folks who made lots more, and spent lots more for a better apt than what I had.

As far as the Belmont goes...that building was built as a TOD development with the intention of being finished at the same time as light-rail. Now that light-rail is behind schedule...

Lastly, Hampton Roads has an extremely high quality of life, hundreds of miles of waterfront property and beaches, a stable economy (Virginia Beach had the 5th highest median family income among large cities in 2003), and low unemployment. Can we please stifle the negativity now? It's simply not founded.

I wouldn't call it a scandal, but the allowance is true as the earth is round. My father is a colonel, uncle LT Colonel, Neighborhood enlisted navy, two friends ex military, oh brother the allowance is true. All we were doing was putting the concept into perspective. You even said yourself it was "Supply and Demand". All we are saying is because of the influx of military people in this region yields higher than normal rents. Think about it, they are able to make the same types of decision that people with more money make with regards to their living. They on average get paid substantially less than us; however, the housing allowance given makes the choices lump side. Imagine if your employer tomorrow gave without condition an extra grand a month to just live off base......If your living arrangement does change from that, imagine how many other people's will. No, it’s a fact!!!!!!!

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The rents in question here are in the downtown area. While Norfolk doesn't have all the amenities of a major city yet it is our urban core. Try finding a similar sized apartment in DC in a Freemason like Neighborhood and compare those prices with here.

Comparison example:

Crystal City: Studio in 1960s building = $1300 http://www.archstoneapartments.com/Apartments/Virginia/Arlington-Crystal_City/Crystal_House/floorplans.htm

Norfolk: Pembroke Towers Studio = $775 http://haguetowers.com/pembroke.htm

If you want some cheap apartments go out to suburbia.

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We've had friends go from making $40K in Hampton Roads to $100K in DC, and that was 8 years ago. There is more money to be made in the big city.

Hampton Roads doesn't have the industry of the big cities. The local cities economic development departments got called out for marketing the region as a place to pay low wages for skilled people some time ago. There is a history of blaming this on people who exit the military, collect their retirement, and then are willing to work for lower than normal wages. I had a friend who had an employer say, during their offer, that the pay was based on his military retirement. He got very PO'ed and walked out (the company was Contemporary Cybernetics in Newport News, who has a very colored past of being a crap hole.)

In terms of housing allowance, I'm totally against it. If it's pay, PAY IT. Don't only allow it for housing. The way it's done just opens it up to waste. If people have no reason to care about value for money, then it leads to waste.

And don't buy into the realtor hype about there only being so much land and such. You hear that here, you hear that EVERYWHERE. Every city in the US has some BS excuse as to why it's different there. The water, the climate, etc.

http://www.housingtracker.net/asking-prices/virginia-beach-virginia/

Of course the statistics don't exist in the local market (that I can find) that show the avg sq/ft versus price. So it's hard to tell if people are getting much more house now than before.

While we debate these small time semantics, the people that enabled the housing mania and economic collapse of the USA just ran away with many lifetimes worth of wealth.

Edited by Telmnstr
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The rents in question here are in the downtown area. While Norfolk doesn't have all the amenities of a major city yet it is our urban core. Try finding a similar sized apartment in DC in a Freemason like Neighborhood and compare those prices with here.

Comparison example:

Crystal City: Studio in 1960s building = $1300 http://www.archstone.../floorplans.htm

Norfolk: Pembroke Towers Studio = $775 http://haguetowers.com/pembroke.htm

If you want some cheap apartments go out to suburbia.

This is what I like to see; data! It seems to me that our cost of living is no where near the cost to live in places like D.C. However, I do understand the military's influence over the area, the rent, and local wages. I watched the VB economic development video which specifically mentions that many highly skilled military retire each year looking for work in the region. This is not a market failure, but actually a good thing.

As for comparing wages. A Geographic Information Systems (GIS) job in Richmond (where the cost of living is lower and there is more competition) pays about 45,000 for someone with experience. I saw a job posting on VBgov.com which shows the pay range at 60-75,000. My specific field of urban planning and economic development (which this forum is geared towards) the average pay is much higher here than in places like Richmond, and comparable to places like D.C. and exactly the same as Charlotte. This is a known fact in my masters program.

Now I can't claim to know how other industries pay in comparison with other regions. But I do know that some industry sectors pay well here. We also have a secure manufacturing sector due to the shipyards (which tend to pay more than the service sector, with less formal education required). For anyone interested in workforce development, this is fundamentally key for a strong workforce to have some opportunity without requiring college.

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Here's some data provided by the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy which outlines the average home values within metro regions (values based on land, structure and both combined). The Norfolk region is higher than many regions such as Charlotte and Atlanta. No data provided for Richmond, and Yes D.C. values are much higher than us (as should be expected).

http://www.lincolninst.edu/subcenters/land-values/data/2009-07-DAVIS-PALUMBO.DATA.XLS

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Hey, fellow members. Dont the wages and cost of living in not all but, alot of other larger cities/metros fit with the wages there paid to balance out? NorthernVA/D.C/MD metro does have a higher cost of living. Im not saying this to start a debate, this is more of a question than it is me stating something to start a debate. I lived in D.C metro and NY metro and its cost a heck of alot more for everything from food clothes and homes! Yes, the wages here are totally not an attraction to the metro and has contributed to the slow growth. Face it, Norfolk/Va Beach has the looks an scenic views for a larger metro but, the economics aren't there!

We lost many college grads due to the fact the jibs aren't here and the pay isnt higher. That said, If you live in D.C metro and buy a house and other things according to your income does it not balance out due to cost of living? I LOVE the D.C metro by the way. shades.gifshades.gif I LOVE Norfolk/Va Beach but, income levels must improve to attract new residents and more opportunities! Charlotte is a place were people are going as well as Winston Salem,Raleigh,Greensboro as growth and jobs have went to North Carolina. Why have they voided the state of VA besides Northern VA. I know why Northern VA has the jobs but, why have businesses avoided the rest of the state. When I visit D.C metro I have to remind myself when on the VA side I'm in VA! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

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If wages are so low, how come Virginia Beach has been ranked in the top 5 median incomes in the nation amongst large cities?

Virginia Beach is just a glorified suburb. If Virginia Beach was a county(which it acts like) instead of a city it would not even rank in the top 100.

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Virginia Beach is just a glorified suburb. If Virginia Beach was a county(which it acts like) instead of a city it would not even rank in the top 100.

I agree that Va Beach is not an "inner city." But Va Beach is not a bedroom community either. Va Beach does not look and feel like a traditional suburb at all (save maybe the Pungo/courthouse portion). Va Beach has jobs, has tourists, has wealthy waterfront/golf course communities, has projects and ethnic communities/enclaves, has the tallest building in Virginia, and will soon have light rail transit. Va Beach is no more a suburb than Brookline, Mass is in Boston. You could make the same counterpoints about both places. But they in fact function as cities do.

I have high expectations about the Hampton Roads metro and high expectations for this forum in the post-recession decade to come. I would like to continue to think that urbanplanet is consistent in forecasting economic changes before they occur locally. This is partly because the folks here appear to be rather forward-thinking and yes, critical of ideas and plans for the future.

Either I'm getting to the point in my life, or the economy is getting to a certain point in the cycle, where my development-minded friends/family are choosing to ask me directly about the big changes which they can no longer deny or oppose. I grew up surrounded by the good ole boy mentality and that developers knew what's best for P.A. and Norfolk county, not the government. I'm not convinced its one way or the other...but I do agree that huge changes are right round the bend, and light rail is a huge part of it for both Norfolk and Va Beach.

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If wages are so low, how come Virginia Beach has been ranked in the top 5 median incomes in the nation amongst large cities?

Because in most large cities, there's a lower distribution of incomes. The low wage earners typically live in other cities, and because we are an autocentric metro, they drive to where ever they need to work. In a real city, the low wage earners typically have to live either close to their place of work, or along a public transit route within the city, and the wealthier people will drive in from a bedroom community.

Edited by 757hokie
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Because in most large cities, there's a lower distribution of incomes. The low wage earners typically live in other cities, and because we are an autocentric metro, they drive to where ever they need to work. In a real city, the low wage earners typically have to live either close to their place of work, or along a public transit route within the city, and the wealthier people will drive in from a bedroom community.

That sounds like Norfolk to me.

I have a question for you guys. Is Norfolk a real city? I've seen people on this site call Norfolk a fake city and now I see people call VB a large suburb and a county, etc. What do you all think Norfolk is? I really don't know what to classify them as. Sometimes it feels like a city city like big city. But other times it feels country. When I'm in Ghent, especially Hampton Blvd and Colley Ave.. I feel like I'm in a real city. But then you head towards Tidewater Dr and Little Creek rd and it feeels like rural-ville.

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Everything in LIFE is subjective. To me, Norfolk is a REAL CITY! Va Beach is a suburb despite its lagre population. That isnt an insult to Va Beach thoug its a great city. That said, Norfolk is the city center for the metro. Hampton,Newport News and Portsmouth all have small downtowns and are cities as well but, are suburbs of Norfolks. Also, the most densely populated of all our seven cities is Norfolk by far even after the population loss in the last 40 years(from 1950-1990 to the present) in the city! Norfolk was at one time a top 50 city in population in the USA. When I was a kid my aunt had encyclopedia'sshades.gif with Norfolk having a population of over 300,000 people and listed as at top 50 city in Population. I forgot the rank!

That said, some will argue its not a real city! I say each city is different! Some have more to offer and some are well planed. Norfolk was never a city meant to be FOCUSED on its financial core. It was meant to be what it is a military town that grew more than expected. It has surpassed what the military thought it would become. Remember that Oceana almost lost its base due to growth. The military is here due to what they felt was a lack of potential for the growth we are seeing and trust me it has effected Norfolk/Va BEach from being bigger from behind the scenes politically. We have a green line(Growth restriction in southern Va Beach) in Va Beach as well!!!

We live in a great historic area and Im proud. Tp those who say Norfolk isnt a real city I respect there views. I think Ghent and other parts of Norfolk show its a city and a city with growth potential! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gifgrin.png

Edited by usermel
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People forget that Va Beach for years has had the green line(growth restrictions in southern Va Beach)! Va Beach has NEVER totally had a chance to grow as it could have. The potential Va Beach has is held back by older residents and the military that don't want Va Beach to grow to much. This may come as a surprise but, were the minority in our metro! Most here dont want more people or buildings every place! Va Beach without restrictions could be 25% to 50% bigger in population etc.! At one time the city of Va Beach was one of the fastest growing cities in America. It has slowed up in the last 15 years or so as has the metros growth.

There are so many hurdles that have prevented growth that we forget about it and projects like Granby Towers should be a reminder of the issues and bad fortune Norfolk has faced with the whole area but, we have done god compared to most cities of Norfolks size! We will be fine in 25-30 years. I'll be old but, I hope to see the change, its coming!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

Edited by usermel
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At one point, in the early days of the New World.. Norfolk was a top 10 town in population... But it reached it's peak of 307,000 in 1970... with a density of 5716/ sq. mile. Wouldn't it be awesome for us to witness Norfolk break 300,000 one day? I think it's totally possible. The city is 97% developed and has very little quality land for major projects. There's no such thing as development in Norfolk. Everything is re-devleopment. Norfolk is in the stage where everything must become denser for the city to actually grow, which is good,and LRT will aid in that aspect.

And Virginia Beach... uhh I don't really like it. Even though it's my birthplace, it's too suburban and has no places that FEEL like a city like my beloved Norfolk. The GreenLine is a good thing though and I don't think it's restrained VB from growing. It's great now though, because since the Northern 1/2 of VB is become built out, it will allow for the SGAs and LRT to urbanize VB and one day.. in the next 250 years.. VB might be a real city.. just like Norfolk.

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