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Downtown Norfolk Progress


varider

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At one point, in the early days of the New World.. Norfolk was a top 10 town in population... But it reached it's peak of 307,000 in 1970... with a density of 5716/ sq. mile. Wouldn't it be awesome for us to witness Norfolk break 300,000 one day? I think it's totally possible. The city is 97% developed and has very little quality land for major projects. There's no such thing as development in Norfolk. Everything is re-devleopment. Norfolk is in the stage where everything must become denser for the city to actually grow, which is good,and LRT will aid in that aspect.

And Virginia Beach... uhh I don't really like it. Even though it's my birthplace, it's too suburban and has no places that FEEL like a city like my beloved Norfolk. The GreenLine is a good thing though and I don't think it's restrained VB from growing. It's great now though, because since the Northern 1/2 of VB is become built out, it will allow for the SGAs and LRT to urbanize VB and one day.. in the next 250 years.. VB might be a real city.. just like Norfolk.

Never knew that.

But that was before my time.

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People forget that Va Beach for years has had the green line(growth restrictions in southern Va Beach)! Va Beach has NEVER totally had a chance to grow as it could have. The potential Va Beach has is held back by older residents and the military that don't want Va Beach to grow to much. This may come as a surprise but, were the minority in our metro! Most here dont want more people or buildings every place! Va Beach without restrictions could be 25% to 50% bigger in population etc.! At one time the city of Va Beach was one of the fastest growing cities in America. It has slowed up in the last 15 years or so as has the metros growth.

There are so many hurdles that have prevented growth that we forget about it and projects like Granby Towers should be a reminder of the issues and bad fortune Norfolk has faced with the whole area but, we have done god compared to most cities of Norfolks size! We will be fine in 25-30 years. I'll be old but, I hope to see the change, its coming!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

I don't quite agree with your assessment that Virginia Beach hasn't had a chance to grow as it should. In the 80s, when it was a city, it didn't set the correct ordinances and zoning in place to allow it to grow correctly. The same could be said for Chesapeake and many other suburban locales that burst onto the scene in the 1980s. The problem is Virginia Beach stunk at planning forever and now all you see is cookie-cutter, low-dense shopping centers and housing defining most of the city. While it has some nice assets (Town Center, Oceanfront, Princess Anne Commons, etc), you could blindfold someone, drop them off in any other part of the city and they wouldn't be able to identify what part of town they were in because it all looks like the same low-density, uninteresting place. Also, I wouldn't pin Virginia Beach's lack of growth on a supposed fact that the military doesnt want the city to grow - it only wants the city to control growth where the military influence is greatest, in close vicinity of Oceana - Virginia Beach could grow around it in places like Town Center, Kempsville, Shore Drive, Newtown, and the northern Oceanfront. It was only after the explosive growth waned that Virginia Beach caught-up in trying to plan itself after it was too late. Most of the land was already developed and now you have to fight your suburban citizens that settled around to get any kind of urban project off the ground.

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Somehow, someway, when Boston and New York and other Northeast cities and also New Orleans and places like St. Louis(at 1 time was almost at 1,000,000 residents but never passed over 1 million) Norfolk as well as Richmond never got to 400,000 or more people. Norfolk was in the early times of America after the War for Independence one of the more dense(smaller square mileage) as well as more populated in terms of colonial times that is. I wonder what happened when cities like Cleveland and Kansas City and other cities continued to grow(even though most of these towns have lost people to the suburbs) why didnt Norfolk and Richmond. Richmond was also a populated city by colonial standards as well.

Norfolk, nor Richmond ever got to the size of some of the other US cities that remain major cities like Cleveland(at least its more recognized than Norfolk,Richmond that is) and St Louis! I always when looking at old census numbers wondered how much more important Norfolk and Richmond were then. Were Norfolk and Richmond similar to what Boston and Philly are now in terms of importance and country recognition? Im talkin about comparing the late 1790's-1830's to present America guys! Something effected Norfolk and Richmond from becoming major cities. Alot, not all major US cities got were they are today based on there start in the 1800's-1870's!

Also, Im sure Varider already saw this but, Baltimore was also a city that almost crossed 1 million people! It was a large city and back then was a top 10 city! Very interesting when you view the census and see the change and see new cities like Charlotte,Miami and Atlanta as well as L.A go up in rankings as well as Dallas and Houston to! Many other cities have surpassed Norfolk and Richmond in population as well! Why the growth of both cities never crossed the 400,000 mark and why the growth didnt continue like Boston and Philly as well as Baltimore and other cities from colonial times is a mystery!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

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Somehow, someway, when Boston and New York and other Northeast cities and also New Orleans and places like St. Louis(at 1 time was almost at 1,000,000 residents but never passed over 1 million) Norfolk as well as Richmond never got to 400,000 or more people. Norfolk was in the early times of America after the War for Independence one of the more dense(smaller square mileage) as well as more populated in terms of colonial times that is. I wonder what happened when cities like Cleveland and Kansas City and other cities continued to grow(even though most of these towns have lost people to the suburbs) why didnt Norfolk and Richmond. Richmond was also a populated city by colonial standards as well.

Norfolk, nor Richmond ever got to the size of some of the other US cities that remain major cities like Cleveland(at least its more recognized than Norfolk,Richmond that is) and St Louis! I always when looking at old census numbers wondered how much more important Norfolk and Richmond were then. Were Norfolk and Richmond similar to what Boston and Philly are now in terms of importance and country recognition? Im talkin about comparing the late 1790's-1830's to present America guys! Something effected Norfolk and Richmond from becoming major cities. Alot, not all major US cities got were they are today based on there start in the 1800's-1870's!

Also, Im sure Varider already saw this but, Baltimore was also a city that almost crossed 1 million people! It was a large city and back then was a top 10 city! Very interesting when you view the census and see the change and see new cities like Charlotte,Miami and Atlanta as well as L.A go up in rankings as well as Dallas and Houston to! Many other cities have surpassed Norfolk and Richmond in population as well! Why the growth of both cities never crossed the 400,000 mark and why the growth didnt continue like Boston and Philly as well as Baltimore and other cities from colonial times is a mystery!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

I really want to know why Norfolk isn't a major city right now too. It's got the greatest natural harbor in the world.. miles of coastline.. convenient to the other big cities such as DC, Baltimore, Philly, New York.. What stunts Norfolk City's growth? Why isn't it just like Baltimore.. ? Other then Baltimore's position in the BosWash area.

Edited by varider
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I have no idea buddy(VaRider) I think(I don't know, I'm guessing) its the military!! People have attacked me for saying its related to the military but, I watch the news every night and whenever theres a question about growth and it involves the military questions arise about leaving the city/metro(mostly about growth to close to military facilities)! My point is, I think Hampton Roads is military rich/wealthy! I took the Spirit of Norfolk tour and was amazed at the scale Norfolk is on in terms of military involvement! I don't in anyway feel being military strong is bad so to those who disagree when I say I "think" it's the military that influences Norfolk and the metro's growth, take it easy!

I think some places are what they are and Norfolk is known for the military! Heck, when Im outside the metro especially in the Northeast, I get the same comments,"Norfolk, I served there and its a great military town, lived there for 5 years"! I have no idea truthfully why Norfolk hasn't grown like those cities it was on the same level as or just below during colonial times along with Richmond. Both cities had plenty history, though Richmond kept most of its(excuse the destruction it suffered during the Civil War) Norfolk didnt due to the urban renewal of the 1950's-1970's!

Norfolk has grown though, not just in buildings but, in its suburbs. I am now 36 and can say some change has happened. Light Rail is the biggest surprise to me. I have been blessed to see the whole USA and can say there are lots, I mean lots of places worse than Norfolk and our metro. I guess what we see in our area is the same as what we see when we look in the mirror! Some of us like what we see, some of us don't. Ultimately, its about what YOU as an individual feel about were your from. Its all mental and though some of what we see it what it is. Imagine cities without Beaches and all the waterways we take for granted! Think about the dollars the military bring in and Williamsburg and Yorktown and Jamestown as National historic attractions.

There are some things Norfolk and its metro lacks but, 1.7 million people and The Worlds Largest Naval Base along with Va Beach as a suburb isnt bad. I have lived in worse places but, out of respect for the great people in those places I wont name them. The people were great! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

Edited by usermel
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I have no idea buddy(VaRider) I think(I don't know, I'm guessing) its the military!! People have attacked me for saying its related to the military but, I watch the news every night and whenever theres a question about growth and it involves the military questions arise about leaving the city/metro(mostly about growth to close to military facilities)! My point is, I think Hampton Roads is military rich/wealthy! I took the Spirit of Norfolk tour and was amazed at the scale Norfolk is on in terms of military involvement! I don't in anyway feel being military strong is bad so to those who disagree when I say I "think" it's the military that influences Norfolk and the metro's growth, take it easy!

I think some places are what they are and Norfolk is known for the military! Heck, when Im outside the metro especially in the Northeast, I get the same comments,"Norfolk, I served there and its a great military town, lived there for 5 years"! I have no idea truthfully why Norfolk hasn't grown like those cities it was on the same level as or just below during colonial times along with Richmond. Both cities had plenty history, though Richmond kept most of its(excuse the destruction it suffered during the Civil War) Norfolk didnt due to the urban renewal of the 1950's-1970's!

Norfolk has grown though, not just in buildings but, in its suburbs. I am now 36 and can say some change has happened. Light Rail is the biggest surprise to me. I have been blessed to see the whole USA and can say there are lots, I mean lots of places worse than Norfolk and our metro. I guess what we see in our area is the same as what we see when we look in the mirror! Some of us like what we see, some of us don't. Ultimately, its about what YOU as an individual feel about were your from. Its all mental and though some of what we see it what it is. Imagine cities without Beaches and all the waterways we take for granted! Think about the dollars the military bring in and Williamsburg and Yorktown and Jamestown as National historic attractions.

There are some things Norfolk and its metro lacks but, 1.7 million people and The Worlds Largest Naval Base along with Va Beach as a suburb isnt bad. I have lived in worse places but, out of respect for the great people in those places I wont name them. The people were great! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

The military may have something to do with it, and I agree. On the Spirit of Norfolk, when you pass the Naval Base and see all the carriers and submarines lined up.. it's amazing. But like.. I love Hampton Roads. But maybe it's because I've never lived anywhere else. I've been to plenty of major cities (New York, Phila, Baltimore, DC, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, San Diego, etc.) but I love Norfolk the most (biased of course). I don't care that it's not a big city (although I'd love it to become one).. I love my Tides (matter of fact I'm listening to them on the radio as I type this)..I love our small downtown. Things can only get better from here. Especially with LRT.

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I really want to know why Norfolk isn't a major city right now too. It's got the greatest natural harbor in the world.. miles of coastline.. convenient to the other big cities such as DC, Baltimore, Philly, New York.. What stunts Norfolk City's growth? Why isn't it just like Baltimore.. ? Other then Baltimore's position in the BosWash area.

Yellow Fever is the reason we fell behind while the others soared ahead...1855

"Citizens fled both cities in panic. At Old Point, they were turned away by soldiers with bayonets. Other cities enforced quarantine or imposed fines. But some doors remained open, notably those in Richmond, Mathews County and Fredericksburg, and on the Eastern Shore. Governor-elect Henry Wise took refugees into his own home and set up tents on the lawn for the overflow...In all, there were an estimated 1,000 deaths in Portsmouth and 2,000 in Norfolk, about a third of those who did not flee."- Norfolkhistorical.org

Edited by mlsimons
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Yellow Fever is the reason we fell behind while the others soared ahead...1855

"Citizens fled both cities in panic. At Old Point, they were turned away by soldiers with bayonets. Other cities enforced quarantine or imposed fines. But some doors remained open, notably those in Richmond, Mathews County and Fredericksburg, and on the Eastern Shore. Governor-elect Henry Wise took refugees into his own home and set up tents on the lawn for the overflow...In all, there were an estimated 1,000 deaths in Portsmouth and 2,000 in Norfolk, about a third of those who did not flee."- Norfolkhistorical.org

Well doesn't that suck

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The military may have something to do with it, and I agree. On the Spirit of Norfolk, when you pass the Naval Base and see all the carriers and submarines lined up.. it's amazing. But like.. I love Hampton Roads. But maybe it's because I've never lived anywhere else. I've been to plenty of major cities (New York, Phila, Baltimore, DC, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, San Diego, etc.) but I love Norfolk the most (biased of course). I don't care that it's not a big city (although I'd love it to become one).. I love my Tides (matter of fact I'm listening to them on the radio as I type this)..I love our small downtown. Things can only get better from here. Especially with LRT.

The military had nothing to do with it. Hampton Roads was left in the dust to becoming a major metropolitan area long before the military setup shop. DPlease try harder.....

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Somehow, someway, when Boston and New York and other Northeast cities and also New Orleans and places like St. Louis(at 1 time was almost at 1,000,000 residents but never passed over 1 million) Norfolk as well as Richmond never got to 400,000 or more people. Norfolk was in the early times of America after the War for Independence one of the more dense(smaller square mileage) as well as more populated in terms of colonial times that is. I wonder what happened when cities like Cleveland and Kansas City and other cities continued to grow(even though most of these towns have lost people to the suburbs) why didnt Norfolk and Richmond. Richmond was also a populated city by colonial standards as well.

Norfolk, nor Richmond ever got to the size of some of the other US cities that remain major cities like Cleveland(at least its more recognized than Norfolk,Richmond that is) and St Louis! I always when looking at old census numbers wondered how much more important Norfolk and Richmond were then. Were Norfolk and Richmond similar to what Boston and Philly are now in terms of importance and country recognition? Im talkin about comparing the late 1790's-1830's to present America guys! Something effected Norfolk and Richmond from becoming major cities. Alot, not all major US cities got were they are today based on there start in the 1800's-1870's!

Also, Im sure Varider already saw this but, Baltimore was also a city that almost crossed 1 million people! It was a large city and back then was a top 10 city! Very interesting when you view the census and see the change and see new cities like Charlotte,Miami and Atlanta as well as L.A go up in rankings as well as Dallas and Houston to! Many other cities have surpassed Norfolk and Richmond in population as well! Why the growth of both cities never crossed the 400,000 mark and why the growth didnt continue like Boston and Philly as well as Baltimore and other cities from colonial times is a mystery!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

I don't comment too much on this blog, I usually just read, however, I wanted to chime in on this discussion as to why Norfolk and Richmond never grew in the way NE Cities have. I was reading something several years ago which I think may answer this question.

During colonial times, Portsmouth, Norfolk nor Richmond never developed as extensive port and trade cities like Baltimore, Philly, New York, and Boston. I say Portsmouth first because its actually older than Norfolk. It wasn't until the 20th Century that this region became a major port. This was due to the fact that trade in the Virginia Colony was performed directly at the Plantation as opposed to in the cities since the ships coming directly from England could sail directly there. The ports in Portsmouth and Norfolk only served the immediate Norfolk, Princess Anne, and Nansemond County hinterlands with their respective agricultural trade. One side note, Richmond did not grow until after the Civil War and the industrial revolution was in full swing. It only had the capital before hand. This could not be done in the NE since the river system does not permit one to sail a large ship that far upstream unlike here. Therefore, any colonist from the NE agricultural regions wishing to sell their goods to England had to deliver the goods directly to those port NE port cities. This required an extensive trading network in the cities which brought people into the cities. Also, because non-navigable rivers contained rapids and were fast moving, it made good for hydropower to turn mills to produce textiles, giving birth to industry. Therefore, when the industrial revolution occurred these areas were prime for new industry and industry headquarters since there was a workforce ready to go. This eventually yielded the 'Fortune 500', large industry type that is and was located in the NE. Also, Richmond added industry during the industrial revolution since it was near the James where it was fast moving at that point.

Usermel, you mentioned cities like Kansas City and St. Louis in the Mid-West. Well, again these cities were located along trade routes leading west and as the country expanded and the population moved west, it required industry to move with it, which required a large workforce. Naturally, industry and agricultural trade would occur along the trade routes further adding to these cities' population.

It should be noted that the Navy did not become a large portion of Hampton Roads' economy until the early 20th Century when Teddy Roosevelt built the Great White Fleet. This area was ideal for a new Naval Installation, which was constructed at Sewell's Point, which ultimately became NOB.

So, this means that cities grow due to the fact that people have a reason to go there for work. The same reason why we aren't growing now and have lost people to Charlotte and Raleigh, due to the lack of good paying jobs.

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Makes sense. Supply and demand. So to have 1.7 million in the metro is really good then. No telling were Norfolk would be as a metro if the jobs were here. I guess we have to hope that we become a boom metro area and Norfolk as a city can get the ball rolling to FOCUS more on building a stronger financial core in the area! Great facts and info and they make sense Hollise!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gif

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It would be interesting to graph the population growth of the major cities and compare them with Norfolk's. The census bureau has the population for the largest 100 cities in the US for each census back to 1790. http://www.census.go...7/twps0027.html It would be quite easy with an Excel spreadsheet, but it would be tedious. I assume the growth track of the cities would be mostly parallel, but at some point Norfolk's would diverge from the other major cities. If the divergence is sudden, we could probably pin down the cause - the yellow fever epidemic, the Civil War, the industrial revolution, etc.

Is anyone up for the challenge of gathering this data and entering it into a spreadsheet?

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It would be interesting to graph the population growth of the major cities and compare them with Norfolk's. The census bureau has the population for the largest 100 cities in the US for each census back to 1790. http://www.census.go...7/twps0027.html It would be quite easy with an Excel spreadsheet, but it would be tedious. I assume the growth track of the cities would be mostly parallel, but at some point Norfolk's would diverge from the other major cities. If the divergence is sudden, we could probably pin down the cause - the yellow fever epidemic, the Civil War, the industrial revolution, etc.

Is anyone up for the challenge of gathering this data and entering it into a spreadsheet?

I did the spreadsheet using that census data from 1790 onward. Unfortunately, when I attempt to attach it won't display right, so if anyone wants to see it, let me know and I can e-mail it to you. I did a comparison with the large NE cities as well as some Mid-Western and Western cities. It should be noted that Norfolk really didn't grow until the 20th Century, particularly during and after WWII as I had stated before. The NE cities were and always have been the largest and the Mid-Western cities didn't grow until the 19th Century. All surpassing Norfolk very quickly. I added Charleston to note that at one point it was the third largest city in the country. Then later on it completely fell off the list of even being in the top 100 cities. Charlotte didn't even make the list until 1940 while Norfolk was always on the list, albeit not at the top though. Baltimore has always been relatively close to the top. By comparison here, it confirms what I had stated before. Anyone have any additional comments on this spreadsheet?

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I don't comment too much on this blog, I usually just read, however, I wanted to chime in on this discussion as to why Norfolk and Richmond never grew in the way NE Cities have. I was reading something several years ago which I think may answer this question....

Thank you.

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It would be interesting to graph the population growth of the major cities and compare them with Norfolk's. The census bureau has the population for the largest 100 cities in the US for each census back to 1790. http://www.census.go...7/twps0027.html It would be quite easy with an Excel spreadsheet, but it would be tedious. I assume the growth track of the cities would be mostly parallel, but at some point Norfolk's would diverge from the other major cities. If the divergence is sudden, we could probably pin down the cause - the yellow fever epidemic, the Civil War, the industrial revolution, etc.

Is anyone up for the challenge of gathering this data and entering it into a spreadsheet?

Norfolk was left in the dust before the yellow fever epidemic & the civil war. Compare Cleveland's rate of growth, for example, to Norfolk from about 1810-1850. I think Hollise provided sufficient explanation in general, but in Cleveland's case they were mid-way between the iron mines in Minnesota & the coal mines to the east. Once the Erie canal was completed linking it to the North East, its population exploded as it became a centre of steel industry and transhipment of goods.

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While these are new businesses, most are replacing failed businesses. The one exception is Palace on Plume, as that building was Heritage Bank which moved into Dominion Tower. There was also Heritage Bank presence in City Center building that consolidated into Dominion Tower (AFAIK.)

3 Way Cafe was the Blue Plate, which was called Coyote or something prior to that.

Jack Quins was Jack Quins.

Backstage was the Backstage Cafe, which I believe opened when the Norva opened.

219 of course was the 219.

Bootleggers was Posh Dolche, which got run out by the city. Before that I think it might have been Wonderbar?

To me Granby was on when Relative Theory was there. It died when that died. I just don't care about going out drinking every night.

It's good to have the spaces moving again. As long as we don't loose ours :-)

I find it hard to even go out to lunch anymore with friends because my coworkers were mostly laid off, and other friends bought houses and stuff and have quit spending all money to funnel it into paying their mortgage.

My geek friends that come over to the lab actually drive a bunch of business downtown, but that is evening. Gotta get them to the kabeb place, I dig that place a lot.

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Norfolk Property Development eventually switched gears and four years later, as an office building, the Madison's exterior has been transformed, its historic features kept in tact. The finishing touches are being completed inside and it has secured its first two tenants, according to Doug Aronson, vice president of SL Nusbaum Realty, who has listed the property. They are a psychiatry practice and a convenience store and gas station corporate office.

The building's ground floor has space for retail or restaurants. Aronson said they are talking with restaurants.

There is a 6,000-square-foot basement that once was a bar known as Rathskellers. That space could also play into whatever restaurant might lease the ground floor.

http://insidebiz.com/news/downtowns-madison-signs-two-tenants

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