Downtown Norfolk Progress

[Sky06]

Just thought that should have been the best station on the line, especially if you are going to tear down a building. The green public space, not really feeling it, not right now. If it were that much demand for greenspace, I think we would have seen more people on the lot next to MacAuther center and across from it where they are building the TCC building. I actually liked that little area, good transistion from the mall to granby street and when they had dj's and things out there, people seem to just hang around. Not saying it couldn't happen in this new green space, just wished they would have step back from that idea just a tad and consider other options. Also, I think it was a great opportunity for something unique to the city to be placed there.

I agree. I would have preferred renovating the Kirn, building a track right through the building, and converting the space into offices, shops, restuarants, and a terminal equipped with newstands and the like. But as been said before, this may well be temporary.

I still think the most logical place for a tower near Macarthur Station is above the station.

Agree.

[Sky06]

But I guess Norfolk getting getting LRT is the most unique thing that's going to happen in the near future (so sad).

Yeh, I guess having a cruise center is same all same all. Like getting a downtown ballpark, shopping mall, college campus, upscale grocery store, renovated park, and everything else. Gee, when are we going to get a Chick-Fil-a?

[mlsimons]

(Yes the Waffle Iron BofA building is kind of ugly. They could pimp it out with architectural lighting. They made their signs much larger already.)

I've said it before and Ill say it again, drap the building in greenery and call it a day...

they could even do it in a diagonal from top to bottom with a little in the top corner and it proceeds down to a green bottom from end to end...or they could do this and wrap the diagonal around the corners. Use vines or shrubs or anything.

They could even install mist hoses that climb vertically to keep the greenery vibrant and happy! If anyone took this idea seriously BofA could be the most appealing high rise in the region!

[Telmnstr]

Wouldn't the greenery destroy the building? Plants can take over a building. It'd look like something out of a sci-fi movie. Can we get a giant robotronic terradactyl perched on the edge.

Lighting would fix it. But BofA makes America look bad by having that in their name.

[brikkman]

Yeh, I guess having a cruise center is same all same all. Like getting a downtown ballpark, shopping mall, college campus, upscale grocery store, renovated park, and everything else. Gee, when are we going to get a Chick-Fil-a?

I guess it is your take on what is unique; I personally do not believe any of those things are unique. As a matter of fact, you will find that most talked about cities have those things you mentioned (the ones we would like to be compared to that is). Of course, if you want to compare us to Chesapeake, Hampton, va.beach, I guess DT does have unique things (wow).

I guess when I say unique, I mean something that defines a city, something people will talk about and enjoy visiting. I doubt that people in va.beach, chesapeake, Suffolk (or people visit the area) drive all the way to Norfolk to see a college campus, see a park, cruise center, and grocery store. Hell, va.beach has a self defining uniqueness by having the ocean as a default in that respect. All the unique venues/businesses in DT are either considered being torn down (waterside/Jillian

[varider]

I guess it is your take on what is unique; I personally do not believe any of those things are unique. As a matter of fact, you will find that most talked about cities have those things you mentioned (the ones we would like to be compared to that is). Of course, if you want to compare us to Chesapeake, Hampton, va.beach, I guess DT does have unique things (wow).

I guess when I say unique, I mean something that defines a city, something people will talk about and enjoy visiting. I doubt that people in va.beach, chesapeake, Suffolk (or people visit the area) drive all the way to Norfolk to see a college campus, see a park, cruise center, and grocery store. Hell, va.beach has a self defining uniqueness by having the ocean as a default in that respect. All the unique venues/businesses in DT are either considered being torn down (waterside/Jillian

[lammius]

Well, not all cities can claim the things Norfolk can. While it may not have that one unique draw to bring people from around the country in, I do think that many people in the 7 cities go downtown more than you think.. Think about all the things downtown: mall, cruise ship terminal, tcc, 30,000+ jobs, waterside, town point park, hockey arena, ballpark, opera house, art galleries, museums, memorials, waterfront, convention center, concert venues,... You don't think those sorta things are unique to the region.. Sure, almost every big city has all of those things and more, but Norfolk can hang with those big cities when it comes to big city amenities... True or false?

&& It would be retarded to put greenery on BoA. I'd rather light it up.

I agree. Some lighting would help it out. I don't support tearing it down. It's really not a bad example of a (now) unpopular style of architecture. Maybe 20-30 years ago people will think about it differently. It'll be old, historic and worth saving. People may even find it beautiful. Tastes in fashion/design are so finicky. It is Norfolk's first (yes?) postwar "modern" skyscraper, isn't it?

As for new towers, the lot by the Courtyard is the obvious choice. As far as the station at the library, I'm not opposed to the open-air station, so long as it is (as someone above said), special/unique. What Norfolk lacks is a true center. What spot is the center of Norfolk? For Philly it's City Hall, for Boston it's the Common, for San Fran it's Union Square. If the station creates an atmosphere where (organically, it can't be manufactured instantly) a "heart" or "center" of Norfolk develops, I'm all for it.

I'm also waiting for the day, hopefully in about a decade, when MacArthur Center is reinvented. I'm not saying destroyed or closed down, but I hate seeing such a huge blob/bunker/fortress in the center of town. I realize in the 1990s that was the way to get retailers and visitors in there, but today Downtown Norfolk has some life. I'd love to see MacArthur Center reinvented to turn out onto the streets of Norfolk rather than remain hidden from them.

[varider]

I agree. Some lighting would help it out. I don't support tearing it down. It's really not a bad example of a (now) unpopular style of architecture. Maybe 20-30 years ago people will think about it differently. It'll be old, historic and worth saving. People may even find it beautiful. Tastes in fashion/design are so finicky. It is Norfolk's first (yes?) postwar "modern" skyscraper, isn't it?

As for new towers, the lot by the Courtyard is the obvious choice. As far as the station at the library, I'm not opposed to the open-air station, so long as it is (as someone above said), special/unique. What Norfolk lacks is a true center. What spot is the center of Norfolk? For Philly it's City Hall, for Boston it's the Common, for San Fran it's Union Square. If the station creates an atmosphere where (organically, it can't be manufactured instantly) a "heart" or "center" of Norfolk develops, I'm all for it.

I'm also waiting for the day, hopefully in about a decade, when MacArthur Center is reinvented. I'm not saying destroyed or closed down, but I hate seeing such a huge blob/bunker/fortress in the center of town. I realize in the 1990s that was the way to get retailers and visitors in there, but today Downtown Norfolk has some life. I'd love to see MacArthur Center reinvented to turn out onto the streets of Norfolk rather than remain hidden from them.

Great point, in my opinion this will become the new center of norfolk. the majority of people who ride the train into the city will get on/ off at this station. it's geographically in the center, and with the newsstands, cafes that they speak of, and just the sheer fact that it's the largest train station makes it the center of the city. It's going to be an amazing sight next year when the train is completed.

I think once the government center is completed with the consolidated courts complex, new city hall (maybe?), and more people living downtown, the courtyard lot will become appealing for developers and a tower will eventually go there. If you look at a skyline picture, it would do wonders for our growing skyline.

I've said time and time again I wish they would open up macarthur and turn it into an urban shopping experience. It would benefit the whole downtown area and would create even more demand for downtown living.

[varider]

Looking at th 2020 plan, the city plans to demolish the monticello antique shop on york street and replace it with two 5 or 6 story infill buildings, with some sort of retail.

&&

Once the consolidated courts complex is complete, their are plans for a 15 story tower??

[varider]

http://www.insidebiz.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?si...DA99D76BF1B1355

Kimple added that the only vacancy rate of the major office submarkets that is decent at the moment is the Norfolk central business district submarket, which stands at 6.4 percent, lower than other submarkets, which are showing double-digit vacancy rates.

Kimple said the rate is subject to change once the Wells Fargo tower comes on line in 2010.

[urbanlife]

http://www.insidebiz.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?si...DA99D76BF1B1355

Wow. 6.4% office vacancy is pretty darn good.

depending on what the number is after Wells Fargo comes online, if it is still under 10% I would say it would be a safe bet to hear talks of another office building being proposed downtown. That would be a very safe bet...actually if the housing market stables out at that time as well, there would be a possibility for a modest office/condo or apartment building where the Granby Tower was suppose to go.

There you have it, that is my forecast...and if you are looking for actual dates, I will say news of this will break around the winter to early spring of 2010 and be finished by the end of 2012...just in time for the end of the world supposedly (if you believe that crap.)

[varider]

Lol! With 72% of 250,000 sq. feet leased, if they don't lease anymore office space in wells fargo, it will only add 70,000sq. feet of inventory.. No way it rises above 10%.. I'm with you on your office tower, but I'm not so sure about the condo tower. Belmont and 201 Twenty One must be absorbed (I think 201 will be 100% occupied within a year) before we get a high rise condo tower built downtown. When Wells Fargo was announced, office vacancy was around 7.5- 8%. Once it's complete it will most likely rise to 8%- 9%. We will need a little bit more absorbtion, but your forecast sounds good.

[Mobius57]

Don't forget Harbor Heights still has empty condos. 90% of the 14th floor is empty.

[varider]

Don't forget Harbor Heights still has empty condos. 90% of the 14th floor is empty.

This is true. The lower floors of Harbor Heights are 90%- 95% occupied, but the penthouse levels aren't selling.

[Mobius57]

Ive signed up for countless PCH drawing things. The current one is 10 million. If I win ill buy one lol

*edit* 15th floor has the penthouses yes, 14th is just regular.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Mobius57

[urbanlife]

Lol! With 72% of 250,000 sq. feet leased, if they don't lease anymore office space in wells fargo, it will only add 70,000sq. feet of inventory.. No way it rises above 10%.. I'm with you on your office tower, but I'm not so sure about the condo tower. Belmont and 201 Twenty One must be absorbed (I think 201 will be 100% occupied within a year) before we get a high rise condo tower built downtown. When Wells Fargo was announced, office vacancy was around 7.5- 8%. Once it's complete it will most likely rise to 8%- 9%. We will need a little bit more absorbtion, but your forecast sounds good.

oh if there is a condo or apartment (which I think it would be apartment to start out with), it would be a smaller fraction of the building. It is actually considered less risk to build mixed use because if one use is hurting, there is a possibility that the other use will be able to pull the building along.

[varider]

Could someone help me figure this one out?

Gaddams proposed Granby Tower and planned it to be 100% luxury condo tower, it became the talk of the town. Norfolk's talllest building, manhattan style living, live in the heart of the city, etc. Everyone wanted to get a place there, demand for the tower went through the roof.. They had pre construction parties for future residents who made there huge deposits. Suburbanites where planning on moving back to the city. They started construction and all of the sudden lost financing? 1. How the hell does that happen? & 2. Why don't you guys think it will come back to life? 3. Couldn't Buddy sell the plans to another developer and still honor the lost deposits? 4. What would make the market for downtown condos disappear?

I'm just confused about the demand and market for condos and apartments downtown. Apartments fly off the shelf. The Alexander is the best example. 100% leased. I don't see how Granby Tower couldn't rise from the dead once the economy turns around. I know you guys don't like talking about it, but really. It seems like the market is still their. You can't compare the akward, oblong shaped, Harbor Heights to Granby Tower. People were excited about living 34 floors up. Being able to see the whole metro from there window. Gadams would have made a huge profit in a couple years. The buildng would have easily paid for itself. The rich came out the woodwork to live in Granby Tower. Tell me what happened.

I'm just tired of Norfolk being fine with being a second class city. Granby Tower would have increased downtown population by almost 25%. Higher population= busier city= more retail= more restaraunts= better city.

I just looked it up. Gadams had sold $75 million worth of condos before he even broke ground! He offered crane rides up for people to see the view. It's truly a shame.

Edited August 24, 2009 by varider

[mistermetaj]

Could someone help me figure this one out?

Gaddams proposed Granby Tower and planned it to be 100% luxury condo tower, it became the talk of the town. Norfolk's talllest building, manhattan style living, live in the heart of the city, etc. Everyone wanted to get a place there, demand for the tower went through the roof.. They had pre construction parties for future residents who made there huge deposits. Suburbanites where planning on moving back to the city. They started construction and all of the sudden lost financing? 1. How the hell does that happen? & 2. Why don't you guys think it will come back to life? 3. Couldn't Buddy sell the plans to another developer and still honor the lost deposits? 4. What would make the market for downtown condos disappear?

I'm just confused about the demand and market for condos and apartments downtown. Apartments fly off the shelf. The Alexander is the best example. 100% leased. I don't see how Granby Tower couldn't rise from the dead once the economy turns around. I know you guys don't like talking about it, but really. It seems like the market is still their. You can't compare the akward, oblong shaped, Harbor Heights to Granby Tower. People were excited about living 34 floors up. Being able to see the whole metro from there window. Gadams would have made a huge profit in a couple years. The buildng would have easily paid for itself. The rich came out the woodwork to live in Granby Tower. Tell me what happened.

I'm just tired of Norfolk being fine with being a second class city. Granby Tower would have increased downtown population by almost 25%. Higher population= busier city= more retail= more restaraunts= better city.

I just looked it up. Gadams had sold $75 million worth of condos before he even broke ground! He offered crane rides up for people to see the view. It's truly a shame.

1. No building is ever 100% financed pre construction. Most buildings are funded incrementally during different stages of construction. What was completed at the site was what Gaddam had the financing for, nothing more.

2. The most likely scenario at the moment is that the GSA will look to expand on the lot. If that is the case, then this plan is dead. However to say it will NEVER come back is a little extreme considering the piles are already in place for this specific building. If this site remains vacant until the next upswing in the market, then i bet it will come back.

3. Gaddam could sell to another developer, but he i doubt he will honor any lost deposits, nor would I expect the next (if this happens) developer to either.

4. I'm sure Tel will have plenty of reasons for number 4 for you. He posts them all over the board as it is. This question is simply fodder for his blogging.

Aside from all of this, Gaddam simply couldn't convince banks, private lenders, loan sharks, etc. that this project was a good investment. He is not the one to blame for the lack of financing as much as it is the market and lack of lenders for what they believed to be a high risk investment. I believe at the time, this tower was only 50% pre sold and part of it was converted to office space at the top floors. That isn't enough for financers to believe they will get a return on their money, and in the end, they were right. The market crashed in the area, and this building site is sitting proof of it. What Gaddam is to blame for is stringing the city and the pre buyers along with broken promises and unfulfilled guarantees.

Norfolk is not FINE with being a second class city. It just isn't as mature as other east coast cities right now. Not to start playing my own broken record here, but the lack of wide spread urbanism in DT Norfolk is largely due to fixing the mess left by the 60s urban renewal and filling in all the holes in the city they left. Imagine all the post 60s development already on SPQ and north of brambelton. That's were it all would have been had DT Norfolk not been leveled to parking lots and potholes. This one building is not what determines Norfolk's class of city. Right now SPQ will be expanding the boundaries, and in the next market and population upswing, we should hopefully see the city's vision for "Atlantic City" now called "Fort Norfolk" and real developments north of downtown.

Edited August 24, 2009 by mistermetaj

[urbanfan]

Could someone help me figure this one out?

Gaddams proposed Granby Tower and planned it to be 100% luxury condo tower, it became the talk of the town. Norfolk's talllest building, manhattan style living, live in the heart of the city, etc. Everyone wanted to get a place there, demand for the tower went through the roof.. They had pre construction parties for future residents who made there huge deposits. Suburbanites where planning on moving back to the city. They started construction and all of the sudden lost financing? 1. How the hell does that happen? & 2. Why don't you guys think it will come back to life? 3. Couldn't Buddy sell the plans to another developer and still honor the lost deposits? 4. What would make the market for downtown condos disappear?

I'm just confused about the demand and market for condos and apartments downtown. Apartments fly off the shelf. The Alexander is the best example. 100% leased. I don't see how Granby Tower couldn't rise from the dead once the economy turns around. I know you guys don't like talking about it, but really. It seems like the market is still their. You can't compare the akward, oblong shaped, Harbor Heights to Granby Tower. People were excited about living 34 floors up. Being able to see the whole metro from there window. Gadams would have made a huge profit in a couple years. The buildng would have easily paid for itself. The rich came out the woodwork to live in Granby Tower. Tell me what happened.

I'm just tired of Norfolk being fine with being a second class city. Granby Tower would have increased downtown population by almost 25%. Higher population= busier city= more retail= more restaraunts= better city.

I just looked it up. Gadams had sold $75 million worth of condos before he even broke ground! He offered crane rides up for people to see the view. It's truly a shame.

Unfortunately you are wrong. Demand for the condos did not go through the roof which is why Gaddams could never secure financing. At the height of the mania he could only secure 40% occupancy for the tower. That won't get it done in a collapsing financing market. There was plenty of hype for the building, but that was all on the part of the developer and the newspapers, not by actual prospects or future tenants. Just wasn't enough demand.

[brikkman]

1. No building is ever 100% financed pre construction. Most buildings are funded incrementally during different stages of construction. What was completed at the site was what Gaddam had the financing for, nothing more.

2. The most likely scenario at the moment is that the GSA will look to expand on the lot. If that is the case, then this plan is dead. However to say it will NEVER come back is a little extreme considering the piles are already in place for this specific building. If this site remains vacant until the next upswing in the market, then i bet it will come back.

3. Gaddam could sell to another developer, but he i doubt he will honor any lost deposits, nor would I expect the next (if this happens) developer to either.

4. I'm sure Tel will have plenty of reasons for number 4 for you. He posts them all over the board as it is. This question is simply fodder for his blogging.

Aside from all of this, Gaddam simply couldn't convince banks, private lenders, loan sharks, etc. that this project was a good investment. He is not the one to blame for the lack of financing as much as it is the market and lack of lenders for what they believed to be a high risk investment. I believe at the time, this tower was only 50% pre sold and part of it was converted to office space at the top floors. That isn't enough for financers to believe they will get a return on their money, and in the end, they were right. The market crashed in the area, and this building site is sitting proof of it. What Gaddam is to blame for is stringing the city and the pre buyers along with broken promises and unfulfilled guarantees.

Norfolk is not FINE with being a second class city. It just isn't as mature as other east coast cities right now. Not to start playing my own broken record here, but the lack of wide spread urbanism in DT Norfolk is largely due to fixing the mess left by the 60s urban renewal and filling in all the holes in the city they left. Imagine all the post 60s development already on SPQ and north of brambelton. That's were it all would have been had DT Norfolk not been leveled to parking lots and potholes. This one building is not what determines Norfolk's class of city. Right now SPQ will be expanding the boundaries, and in the next market and population upswing, we should hopefully see the city's vision for "Atlantic City" now called "Fort Norfolk" and real developments north of downtown.

I think your right regarding fort Norfolk, that's the area between the peta building and the new medical tower correct? When your looking south on the city (from the norfolk), you can truly see what our DT can be. I keep trying to get a picture from 5 story building here on ODU's campus, but I keep forgetting my camera phone. If it were possible to build up on that area of land, I DT would look and amazing and be unique. Actually, that is a great area for condo towers because it actually over looks a nice looking part of Portsmouth (as it is away from bay systems and the other ship yards). A lrt station will be there as well and maybe in relation, this is the reason why people are so passive and not so critical about SPQ developments. Fort Norfolk has that chokoe bottom feel (if i spelled that right) in a way. Only main difference with that and SPQ is it is not likely it will get developed in the future consider it is businesses of all types taking up occupancy there. Its a few people to buy out over there.

Regarding GT, I was fond of the building, but not the location, but I've always been critical of granby street and how it seems if your willing to pay for it, you could locate there. I just find the flow weird, bars, clubs, bistro's, fed building, fed court, college, concert hall just all meshed together is just all over the place.

[varider]

Atlantic City A.K.A. Fort Norfolk is going to be big.. Fort Norfolk Plaza, the conversion of the warehouse into apartments, the progress can already be seen.. It does remind you of Shokoe Bottom.. With the light rail station, proximity to the medical center and downtown proper, I think Fort Norfolk has a lot of potential.

With half of the building sold out before they even broke ground, Granby Tower still was a solid investment.. A lot of people could have been waiting to see it rise before they made their decisions on whether to buy or not.. People paid huge down payments without ever steppping foot in the building.. Downtown is getting better and better every day, and I truly believe that once the economy is on the upswing we could see Granby Tower ressurected.

[urbanlife]

Atlantic City A.K.A. Fort Norfolk is going to be big.. Fort Norfolk Plaza, the conversion of the warehouse into apartments, the progress can already be seen.. It does remind you of Shokoe Bottom.. With the light rail station, proximity to the medical center and downtown proper, I think Fort Norfolk has a lot of potential.

With half of the building sold out before they even broke ground, Granby Tower still was a solid investment.. A lot of people could have been waiting to see it rise before they made their decisions on whether to buy or not.. People paid huge down payments without ever steppping foot in the building.. Downtown is getting better and better every day, and I truly believe that once the economy is on the upswing we could see Granby Tower ressurected.

I actually think you might be a bit wrong about Fort Norfolk...I think we will see new development happen along Front St and the water, but between Front and Brambleton, I think most of those businesses are here to stay.

But just getting new development along the waterfront would be an amazing move forward, which would result in high end condos and apartments, which would be good for the tax base of Norfolk...though it still confuses me why that wasnt done years ago. It always seems like the city lacks faith in what it could do or be.

[varider]

I just came from downtown and the city is so busy, I've never seen it as busy as it is. Maybe because tcc is in session? who knows, but some band was playing music on granby st. and they were actually selling food (hotdogs, hamburgers?) in that little park next to TCC and domo sushi.. Granby St. Pizza was packed to capacity, the line was halfway out the door at Tropical Smoothie.. Heavy foot traffic. The city is in business!

Edited August 25, 2009 by varider

[Mobius57]

Nom nom nom

Hay! There are two Westins in your sig varider!

[varider]

There is one in Virginia Beach and one in Norfolk