Downtown Norfolk Progress

[varider]

What's so great about Portland?

I really hear nothing about that town, other than it's light rail system.

[Sky06]

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it again. I don't care who you put in office. This area is at a disadvantage compared to most other cities for 1 significant reason. There are just too many cities competing with one another. And it's unfair to compare a city like Charlotte to, say, downtown Norfolk. Everything in Charlotte is concentrated in 1 place. But here, office buildings and work centers are spread all over the place. Now, if you combined every downtown in Hampton Roads--Norfolk, Town Center, Portsmouth, Suffolk, Hampton, and say Oyster Point in NN--and put them in one place, this area would easily compare to those other cities in terms of the number of buildings, density, the amount of activity taking place, anything else you want to compare. Few metro areas are like Hampton Roads, a place of 7 significant-sized cities and multiple downtowns. The only place like this that comes to mind is DC. When you compare DC to a comparable city, you can't compare just downtown DC to, say, Philadelphia, because DC is more than that. It's also Crystal City, Rosslyn, Fairfax, Springfield, Tysons Corner, Bethesda, Silver Spring, and a host of other downtown and populous work centers. The big difference between DC and Hampton Roads (besides money) is the fact that they have 3 times the population, so it's not as much a problem for them. This area will continue to spread itself thin and stay, at least at first look, behind the power curve as long as we stay separate cities, each trying to be better than the rest.

[varider]

New York also does the multiple activity center thing. I know, I know. That's the largest city in the country.

But I still believe that downtown Norfolk leaves much to be desired and could do a lot better even with the intra-metro competition.

Really the comp. is between Norfolk and Virginia Beach.

I feel like these two could still evolve into major cities with good downtowns despite being seperated by only 9-10 miles.

Minneapolis.

St. Paul

These two cities are the same distance from each other as downtown Norfolk is from Town Center.

Especially with the LR connection coming, downtown Norfolk and "downtown" Va Beach could become a powerhouse.

Edited November 16, 2009 by varider

[urbanlife]

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it again. I don't care who you put in office. This area is at a disadvantage compared to most other cities for 1 significant reason. There are just too many cities competing with one another. And it's unfair to compare a city like Charlotte to, say, downtown Norfolk. Everything in Charlotte is concentrated in 1 place. But here, office buildings and work centers are spread all over the place. Now, if you combined every downtown in Hampton Roads--Norfolk, Town Center, Portsmouth, Suffolk, Hampton, and say Oyster Point in NN--and put them in one place, this area would easily compare to those other cities in terms of the number of buildings, density, the amount of activity taking place, anything else you want to compare. Few metro areas are like Hampton Roads, a place of 7 significant-sized cities and multiple downtowns. The only place like this that comes to mind is DC. When you compare DC to a comparable city, you can't compare just downtown DC to, say, Philadelphia, because DC is more than that. It's also Crystal City, Rosslyn, Fairfax, Springfield, Tysons Corner, Bethesda, Silver Spring, and a host of other downtown and populous work centers. The big difference between DC and Hampton Roads (besides money) is the fact that they have 3 times the population, so it's not as much a problem for them. This area will continue to spread itself thin and stay, at least at first look, behind the power curve as long as we stay separate cities, each trying to be better than the rest.

Hampton Roads is not unique when it comes to the seven cities argument because many regions have more than one city competing...The San Francisco Bay Area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, NYC Metro (it is too huge to be just one center), the Quad Cities (two states, 4 cities, sure it is smaller but still same thing), the entire state of Ohio (seriously, the entire state).

Basically land wise, Hampton Roads is massive. It would be impossible and reckless to have only one urban center to that region. With that much land, it is important to have a collection of urban centers throughout the entire metro. Should the region put more of an effort to work together on larger projects that help create connectivity throughout the area? Sure, it is smart for the region as a whole to work together...that is something elected officials can change, which I would suggest voting for people who are pro metro.

I personally think it is important to compare cities when it comes to trying to figure out what is working for them and could it work for Norfolk and Hampton Roads...when thinking that way, I think it is important to look at urban cities such as Barcelona and trying to figure out how to rework good urban planning into the city for a better future...these are important things to focus on.

VaRider, what is so good about Portland? Well come visit...honestly, growing up in Virginia Beach, I had never heard of Portland other than it was the city south of Seattle. My first visit to Seattle was after I moved to eastern Washington State (which in the northwest, we dont have to say state after Washington...it is kind of funny). Portland is a very young city, most of the people that move here are in their 20s, there is an amazing social bar scene here, the music scene is better than Hampton Roads will ever be if you are into indy music and other forms of alternative music. This city is the place for readers, we have so many book clubs, comic shops, and of course Powells Books, the greatest book store on the planet. I always joke about the difference between halloween and any other day in Portland is that there are more people out on halloween. When you almost get run over by a moving vehicle, it is more than likely going to be some jackass on a bike who thinks he owns the road. The city is very walkable and it feels like it is a collection of small towns with several Main St districts.

Which that is all the good things, the bad side, our unemployment is about as bad as Detroit's because we have so many people that visit, think it is the coolest city they have ever been to, then moves here without a job then cant find work once they are hear.

But seriously, if you love young, vibrant, liberal areas, Portland is a must visit that should be on your list...oh and we also have full nude strip clubs that often times have heavily tattooed and pierced strippers...but then again we have more strip clubs that Vegas! haha!

[usermel]

We have a long way to go locally as a whole and one city isnt to blame. It is clear Norfolk is the best place to center the metros financial center but, will Va Beach go for it? No. Well maybe if the leaders get together and found ways to have it benefit both independent cities. Money is always the issue with cities and thats what needs to be discussed. I love this area but, its to old guard and good ole boys ran. It still has tremendous issues of class/race/education and have and have nots.

Ive heard Va Beach natives say Norfolk is low class and Norfolk natives say Va Beach folks are stuck up.The area doesnt even have the locals feeling like one so the leaders of the cities need feedback that shows they want community here! Louisville a few years back became one city. Made the city a top 20 U.S city over night. Why? The locals wanted it. Love this metro but, it doesnt feel like one and since I was a kid nothings changed but the calendar!!! L.G.N.M

[usermel]

Oh, those pictures of Charlotte compared to Norfolk are scary. Cant believe our Downtown is soooooo,smalllllll! WOW! No reason that a city of Norfolks history and years as a city should still have only added 2-3 business buildings in the last 15 years! To a certain degree the downtown doesnt look drastically different from when I was in high school! 18 years ago. Thats sad. We always get a new eatery here or shopping spot. We seem to not be able to get over the small town hump but have a metro population of 1.7 million, thats no small town. Very confusing. Have you ever told a out of towner the population here metro wise? Same response I get is,"I had no idea that many people lived there"! My ex-girlfriend from Rochester,NY said before coming here she knew it was country and cant wait to see cows etc.! I just said ok. She came here and cried?

Why because our stores eateries etc., were all crowed and we had more malls and people she was shocked. Nobody truly knows our area who hasnt been here and if they are from a smaller placed there shcoked but, if its a larger place its not impressive enough. WHY? The downtown is why because people associate the financial district of most cities with it urban center! So the picture of Charlotte was a great point if you think deep about it. It reps what most people judge things by, the eye test. You see a pretty woman/man you like what you see, charecter of the person comes later and thats our area great when you get to know it!!! L.G.N.M

[varider]

Hampton Roads is not unique when it comes to the seven cities argument because many regions have more than one city competing...The San Francisco Bay Area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, NYC Metro (it is too huge to be just one center), the Quad Cities (two states, 4 cities, sure it is smaller but still same thing), the entire state of Ohio (seriously, the entire state).

Basically land wise, Hampton Roads is massive. It would be impossible and reckless to have only one urban center to that region. With that much land, it is important to have a collection of urban centers throughout the entire metro. Should the region put more of an effort to work together on larger projects that help create connectivity throughout the area? Sure, it is smart for the region as a whole to work together...that is something elected officials can change, which I would suggest voting for people who are pro metro.

I personally think it is important to compare cities when it comes to trying to figure out what is working for them and could it work for Norfolk and Hampton Roads...when thinking that way, I think it is important to look at urban cities such as Barcelona and trying to figure out how to rework good urban planning into the city for a better future...these are important things to focus on.

VaRider, what is so good about Portland? Well come visit...honestly, growing up in Virginia Beach, I had never heard of Portland other than it was the city south of Seattle. My first visit to Seattle was after I moved to eastern Washington State (which in the northwest, we dont have to say state after Washington...it is kind of funny). Portland is a very young city, most of the people that move here are in their 20s, there is an amazing social bar scene here, the music scene is better than Hampton Roads will ever be if you are into indy music and other forms of alternative music. This city is the place for readers, we have so many book clubs, comic shops, and of course Powells Books, the greatest book store on the planet. I always joke about the difference between halloween and any other day in Portland is that there are more people out on halloween. When you almost get run over by a moving vehicle, it is more than likely going to be some jackass on a bike who thinks he owns the road. The city is very walkable and it feels like it is a collection of small towns with several Main St districts.

Which that is all the good things, the bad side, our unemployment is about as bad as Detroit's because we have so many people that visit, think it is the coolest city they have ever been to, then moves here without a job then cant find work once they are hear.

But seriously, if you love young, vibrant, liberal areas, Portland is a must visit that should be on your list...oh and we also have full nude strip clubs that often times have heavily tattooed and pierced strippers...but then again we have more strip clubs that Vegas! haha!

Hampton Roads is unique in having 7 independent cities that are contiguous. And actually our metro is one of the denser one's in the southern United States. We really aren't that spread out. Downtown to Town Center = 9 miles. Town Center to Oceanfront= 11 miles. Downtown to Greenbrier = 10 miles. Downtown to Old Town=.5 mile Downtown Norfolk to Downtown Newport News=15 miles. But I do think we are better off with more than one downtown, and if you look at like you said, Oakland and San Fransisco, Minneapolis and St. Paul, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, etc., Dallas and Ft. Worth, etc. we should be able to fully function with our current city boundaries.

And Portland sounds like it's not for everyone.. Lol.

We have a long way to go locally as a whole and one city isnt to blame. It is clear Norfolk is the best place to center the metros financial center but, will Va Beach go for it? No. Well maybe if the leaders get together and found ways to have it benefit both independent cities. Money is always the issue with cities and thats what needs to be discussed. I love this area but, its to old guard and good ole boys ran. It still has tremendous issues of class/race/education and have and have nots.

Ive heard Va Beach natives say Norfolk is low class and Norfolk natives say Va Beach folks are stuck up.The area doesnt even have the locals feeling like one so the leaders of the cities need feedback that shows they want community here! Louisville a few years back became one city. Made the city a top 20 U.S city over night. Why? The locals wanted it. Love this metro but, it doesnt feel like one and since I was a kid nothings changed but the calendar!!! L.G.N.M

If Hampton Roads combined the seven cities, we would become the 5th largest in America. Don't you think that would help for business relo's and sports teams?

Oh, those pictures of Charlotte compared to Norfolk are scary. Cant believe our Downtown is soooooo,smalllllll! WOW! No reason that a city of Norfolks history and years as a city should still have only added 2-3 business buildings in the last 15 years! To a certain degree the downtown doesnt look drastically different from when I was in high school! 18 years ago. Thats sad. We always get a new eatery here or shopping spot. We seem to not be able to get over the small town hump but have a metro population of 1.7 million, thats no small town. Very confusing. Have you ever told a out of towner the population here metro wise? Same response I get is,"I had no idea that many people lived there"! My ex-girlfriend from Rochester,NY said before coming here she knew it was country and cant wait to see cows etc.! I just said ok. She came here and cried?

Why because our stores eateries etc., were all crowed and we had more malls and people she was shocked. Nobody truly knows our area who hasnt been here and if they are from a smaller placed there shcoked but, if its a larger place its not impressive enough. WHY? The downtown is why because people associate the financial district of most cities with it urban center! So the picture of Charlotte was a great point if you think deep about it. It reps what most people judge things by, the eye test. You see a pretty woman/man you like what you see, charecter of the person comes later and thats our area great when you get to know it!!! L.G.N.M

Well, not really. The picture I posted wasn't Norfolk's full downtown and is misssing Dominion Tower, SunTrust, Wells Fargo, and the ugly civic buildings. But I get what your saying.

I don't think people think this area is rural. Whenever I'm out of town, I tell them I'm from Virginia Beach and they say, "Ohh, I vacationed down there, Nice area," or "I was stationed in Norfolk, cool place.," I've even heard "When are ya'll going to get a sports team" [i was in Philly] lol.

This doesn't feel like a small town IMO. When you travel from say.. Busch Gardens back to the Southside, you can tell your in a major metropolitan region. Miles and miles of developed land with insane amounts of traffic, city busses everywhere, and airplanes landing, etc. Even downtown Norfolk can feel like a real City if you catch it at the right time on the weekday. And the Virginia Beach Oceanfront in the summer feels real big-cityIsh at night.

Downtown is growing at a fine rate right now. The problem is it sat dormant for like 25 years. It's now playing catch up.

[usermel]

Hampton Roads is unique in having 7 independent cities that are contiguous. And actually our metro is one of the denser one's in the southern United States. We really aren't that spread out. Downtown to Town Center = 9 miles. Town Center to Oceanfront= 11 miles. Downtown to Greenbrier = 10 miles. Downtown to Old Town=.5 mile Downtown Norfolk to Downtown Newport News=15 miles. But I do think we are better off with more than one downtown, and if you look at like you said, Oakland and San Fransisco, Minneapolis and St. Paul, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, etc., Dallas and Ft. Worth, etc. we should be able to fully function with our current city boundaries.

And Portland sounds like it's not for everyone.. Lol.

If Hampton Roads combined the seven cities, we would become the 5th largest in America. Don't you think that would help for business relo's and sports teams?

Well, not really. The picture I posted wasn't Norfolk's full downtown and is misssing Dominion Tower, SunTrust, Wells Fargo, and the ugly civic buildings. But I get what your saying.

I don't think people think this area is rural. Whenever I'm out of town, I tell them I'm from Virginia Beach and they say, "Ohh, I vacationed down there, Nice area," or "I was stationed in Norfolk, cool place.," I've even heard "When are ya'll going to get a sports team" [i was in Philly] lol.

This doesn't feel like a small town IMO. When you travel from say.. Busch Gardens back to the Southside, you can tell your in a major metropolitan region. Miles and miles of developed land with insane amounts of traffic, city busses everywhere, and airplanes landing, etc. Even downtown Norfolk can feel like a real City if you catch it at the right time on the weekday. And the Virginia Beach Oceanfront in the summer feels real big-cityIsh at night.

Downtown is growing at a fine rate right now. The problem is it sat dormant for like 25 years. It's now playing catch up.

I agree with all your points totally. I can say at least they finally are making progress in the last 7-10 years! Light rail will add not just help transportation WISE but, also add charecter to the area(Norfolk and other cities it ends up in over time)! I am fortunate to have been all around the U.S and to every state in the USA. Also, been to international cities around the globe via my career! That said, thats why im so eger to see the growth I see in ther places here. Most often I see growth in far smaller metros and one example is Mobile,Alabama I believe it is. Mobiles a great town by the way but, size wise not as big as our yet again the have one of the tallest buildings in the south. And Va Beach has even passed Norfolk with The Westin. Norfolks beauty and location is perfect for growth in all aspects of the word(growth). It just has become frustrating to see time pass and not get the signature Fortune 500/1000 company not named NorfolkSouthern here that cares about the area!!!! L.G.N.M

[varider]

First off, that Mobile building is only 35 floors, and is a hodgepodge of office, hotel, and parking.

But regardless, it all goes back to the way our metro grew and is growing.

We have Dollar Tree out in Greenbrier, Amerigroup in Va Beach off 64, Stihl out by Lynnhaven, Smithfield,etc. If all those were in downtown Norfok we would have some 40+ floor towers.

The sad thing is that we probably wont' see another 20+ floor office tower in downtown Noroflk for 5 years, unless we get a company relo.

Honestly, I'm turning to Virginia Beach for the skyline. I'm already liking the Town Center [i was down there last night and it looks beautiful and even though it's much smaller than DT, for about two blocks it feels like a real "city" haha. And it's clean and no gaps between buildings]. I think downtown Virginia Beach will turn into the urban core of the region. Armada Hoffler is taller than any building in Norfolk and the Westin is HUGE. Plus the retail concept is there and the parking garages are well placed. Since it's a "master plan" development, everything fits just right.

[urbanlife]

First off, that Mobile building is only 35 floors, and is a hodgepodge of office, hotel, and parking.

But regardless, it all goes back to the way our metro grew and is growing.

We have Dollar Tree out in Greenbrier, Amerigroup in Va Beach off 64, Stihl out by Lynnhaven, Smithfield,etc. If all those were in downtown Norfolk we would have some 40+ floor towers.

But think about those companies, how many of them would want to be in a downtown anyway? That would be like me saying, do you know how big Portland's downtown would be if Nike, Columbia, and Intel built all their office buildings downtown? Those companies dont want to pay the taxes that come with being downtown...thus they end up way the hell out in the suburbs.

[varider]

Rode downtown today for a couple minutes.

Posh has been closed and they already took the sign down so now there is an empty storefront on Granby right next to Subway.

This leads me to wonder.

Why would the city put taxpaying employers out of business, especially in the heart of the city? Then I put two and two together.

The city hired a retail recruiter whose only job is to advertise and solicit downtown as a great place to open up a business. The goal is to turn downtown from a bar and nightlife scene to upscale, high-end, desirable retail with a few good eateries. Maybe these businesses closing had less to do with the crime/overcrowdedness and more to do with the fact that the city is lining up better quality retailers? Urban outfitters? Just a theory. Maybe the plan is too replace the lounges and bars with real retail.

[varider]

http://www.insidebiz.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=97535C9D648D44819E5FC92E3CB0ABBD

In what is already a crowded marketplace for fitness clubs, a Suffolk-based gym is trying to enter the fray by expanding its high-end brand with a facility in the competitive downtown Norfolk gym scene.

[varider]

Rant:

As downtown Norfolk has grown substantially in both density and vibrancy the past 5-10 years, there is currently only one lot [the lot on St. Paul's next to the Courtyard] that is large enough for medium-large scale projects [the Westin will get built, crossing fingers]. But I don't understand how Brambleton and St. Paul's act as huge, blunt barriers of downtown. So what it's 6 lanes across. That's why you utilize stoplights and crosswalks. North of Brambleton is in good position for redevelopment. East of St.Paul's is just a pointless sea of surface lots. Don't you think it's getting to be about time that develoment breaks the perverbial boundaries of downtown Norfolk?

[usermel]

Rant:

As downtown Norfolk has grown substantially in both density and vibrancy the past 5-10 years, there is currently only one lot [the lot on St. Paul's next to the Courtyard] that is large enough for medium-large scale projects [the Westin will get built, crossing fingers]. But I don't understand how Brambleton and St. Paul's act as huge, blunt barriers of downtown. So what it's 6 lanes across. That's why you utilize stoplights and crosswalks. North of Brambleton is in good position for redevelopment. East of St.Paul's is just a pointless sea of surface lots. Don't you think it's getting to be about time that develoment breaks the perverbial boundaries of downtown Norfolk?

I'll make this short!!!! I AGREE!!!! L.G.N.M

[usermel]

That new gym is risky to say the least. That area is very competitive and very very use to the gyms they already have. I hope it works because that will show there is a good sized market for that type of business downtown and it means 75 new jobs that will be had by locals. Hope it prospers!!!! L.G.N.M

Edited December 5, 2009 by usermel

[varider]

I didn't want to bump the Westin thread that's about as dead as the project itself for the time being,

but isn't it a complete shame that this project has stalled? Norfolk's second tallest buillding, right on Main St., pre-sold condos, a parking deck, two restauants, large conference space, and the sheer density and "urban fabric" that it would have created? Now, for the time being, we are stuck with a enormous surface lot with grass growing from in between the cracks and signs halfway falling off that read "Coming 2011."

[ronsmytheiii]

I didn't want to bump the Westin thread that's about as dead as the project itself for the time being,

but isn't it a complete shame that this project has stalled? Norfolk's second tallest buillding, right on Main St., pre-sold condos, a parking deck, two restaurants, large conference space, and the sheer density and "urban fabric" that it would have created? Now, for the time being, we are stuck with a enormous surface lot with grass growing from in between the cracks and signs halfway falling off that read "Coming 2011."

Can't say that I am surprised, not many buildings are getting Financing right now. Just wait a couple of years for the banks to start lending again, Silverstein had to get financing from the Port authority for WTC 2 and the Chicago Spire is trying to get some financing from AFL-CIO pension plans, so we are not alone here.

[varider]

I understand about the economy,

but you can't compare a 100 floor skyscraper being built just for symbolism to a 26 floor hotel.

[urbanlife]

I understand about the economy,

but you can't compare a 100 floor skyscraper being built just for symbolism to a 26 floor hotel.

Actually he can, and we probably could create a list a mile long of every city that has stalled projects going on right now...Portland has a wonderful hole in the ground in the center of our city that has been put on hold till maybe next year, then when construction begins back up we will be getting a shorter version of the building that was originally proposed.

[usermel]

Yeah, thats the case in big business and small business(like mine) and personal business. All credit card/lenders companies have got away from fixed rates(most, not all depends on type of card and company) because of the horrible state of the dollar and only offer variale rates now. I was told that to even get a loan personally it will take a 720 Fico or better to secure a good rate that is(in some cases there turning people down lower than 700-720 Fico). So I imagine for multi-million dollar projects they would be even more careful what they lend. The cost to borrow probably has risen for builders and developers so much that it has delayed projects as well. Banks are just not giving to many loans and to get loans personally and in business isn't as easy as it was just 3-4 years ago. What a difference a recession makes. Anyway, I think The Westin will be built. I think the delay is financial but, I think later in 2010 or in the middle of 2010 they will begin construction.

Lenders have told me after 2010 they expect things to get better in terms of business lending as well as personal loans. Times have changed and until they get better skyscrapers may not go up as much here and elsewere until the dollar regains its strength or just gains strength. Got my fingerss crossed. L.G.N.M

[varider]

Here's an article on how US Development changed the face of downtown Columbia, Sc, almost singlehandedly.

http://www.capitolplaces.com/images/T%20Prioreschi%20Profile.pdf

[varider]

Some of you may find this interesting...

http://www.dtownworks.com/why.html

Downtown Works, the company that has been hired to catalyze retail in downtwn Norfolk has had major successes in other cities,which leads me to be excited for the future of our downtown!

In Nashville, within a year of being hired, Downtown Works was responsible for 20 new retailers opening up in their downtown.

http://www.dtownworks.com/Nashville.html

In St. Louis, between 2003 and 2008, 100 new retailers opening up in their downtown.

http://www.dtownworks.com/St.%20Louis.html

Think they will do the same in Norfolk? Granby could be great with the right help!

[varider]

Bryant also revealed the building has been named The Rockefeller in honor of its donor. Early plans call for mixed-use redevelopment, with street-level retail shops and luxury apartments slated for the upper floors.

Hillier Enterprises is a Joint Venture Partner with USD. Hillier expressed that he is“…genuinely excited this is happening in the community where I live. It will be a pleasure to see this Rockefeller building restored to its original beauty and expanded purpose. It promises to be a superb example of what can be accomplished with vision and purpose.” Hillier and Jeff Prioreschi were college friends and fraternity brothers at Old Dominion University.

Columbia Mayor Bob Coble said in a written statement: “US Development’s founders, David Bryant and the Prioreschis, are visionary developers for Columbia’s city center. They believed in our downtown renaissance, and even more important, they have the skills and experience to carry out their dreams.”

Although in the early planning stages, Bryant and Prioreschi explained their initial plans call for a self-contained development within a development. The Rockefeller will spotlight high-end apartment homes with the following amenities: a grand-entrance lobby; restoration of the indoor pool; a clubhouse; fully equipped gym; a rooftop terrace; Zen garden; and outdoor kitchen.

http://midlandsbiz.com/articles/4370/

Ha, I'm wondering why a SC business journal had a better article than the Pilot.

& a CNN iReport about Holidays in the City

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-363428?ref=feeds%2Fcategory%2Ftravel

Edited December 12, 2009 by varider

[varider]

Edited December 21, 2009 by varider

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/01/granby-street-get-three-new-restaurants

Now, in spite of the slumping economy and construction detours all around Granby Street, the city says, the historic entertainment strip is getting back on track. Three new restaurants, which officials said will not draw the troublesome crowds attracted to nightclubs, will open in February and March.

Good article, you should read.