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Downtown Raleigh parking


citiboi27610

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It is good to see that the excesss capacity built into the parking decks downtown might get some use.

The only thing that scares me is that deck owners/operators have been known to give a deal to tenants of their office space or the space of their partners. For everyone else, they charge a lot more or don't even allow parking there.

The city got into the deck construction/ownership business after I stopped working downtown, so don't know if this situation has improved.

I think condos (either new construction or conversions) should make an effort to work out deals with parking deck operators to provide spaces, but requiring spaces on site is crazy.

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I was there tonight. Very interesting talk. (BTW, webguy, I was the one who asked about applying the new parking policies outside of DT Raleigh)

He mentioned, among other things:

"free" parking is not "free"... parking is passed on to consumer through economy (building rent, food cost, housing cost, etc.)... "free" parking has impacts on congestion, built environment, air quality, etc because cities are much more spread out ... estimated that in the US in 2002 we subsidized parking to the tune of $127B-370B :shok: , which is close to the amount we spend on health care and national defense... if planners simply "get out of the way" and let the economics take effect, things will work out...

His proposed policy:

  • Price on-street parking such that 15% supply is remaining at all times; 85% spaces are occupied at nearly all times with prices adjusting to accomodate changing parking supply/demand throughout the day... as demand increases, price rises to fulfill 85% "rule" but as demand falls, parking price could potentially fall to zero (say at 4 am on a Monday)
  • Apply revenues from on-street parking towards improving public services in the block or community where it was generated... rebuild sidewalks, streetlights, street trees, more police presence, cleaned streets, etc
  • Eliminate ALL off-street parking requirements... no requirements in zoning code for minimum parking spaces per dwelling unit, etc

THe key to implementing this is showing businesses and property owners that the money from parking fees would be spent in that location only--then people really started to support and even champion the idea.

The city is considering doing this for DT Raleigh and I think it's a great idea. It would open up old conversion projects by eliminating the parking requirement from the city code--parking would be based purely on market demand. His example was Old Pasadena, CA which used these policy changes to transform their downtown from a dump to an urban attraction with a Tiffany's, etc. Very impressive indeed.

Anything we can do to get less of this 2263564920098570895IZspvT_th.jpg :sick:

is a great thing in my mind.

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I left around 7:15 to make the annual city of Raleigh Community Development review a few blocks away in Chaivs Community center, but really wanted to stay for the whole presentation. I might have walked/sat right by anyone here and not known it, sitting in the row near the soundboard, but in the center section on the aisle. It was very informative and entertaining, though I had questions about a few things, specifically educating people on the nuances of the proposed time/rate senstive parking meters would work.

It was good to see two city councelors (Crowder, Stephenson) in attendance as well as most of the Urban Design Center folks, and students at the number three city planning program the country (UNC). The head of the department, who taught an urban redevelopment seminar class I was in last month, was there too, hiding in the back row. It would have been nice if Mayor Meeker was there, especailly since he recently considered eliminating parking meters. Councilman West was at the CD meeting, but it is telling that I was the only person that attended both -- parking dowtown will also affect community redevlopment to the south and east of the CBD.

The *requirement* of a six to one ratio of space for parking to restaurant, retail, etc. is what has kept these business out of an urban setting and into a multi-lane, pedestrian and mass-transit unfriendly fiefdom.

I also liked the "cat and dog" types of planners. Dogs like jump into a car for a ride, stick their head out the window out for the 5-10% of the time its moving, and forget about it the rest of the time. Cats, on the other hand, claw to avoid getting in a car, and walk all over it when it's not going anywhere.

Studies of how much time and distance someone will travel to "save" money by getting a curbside space is quite telling. Downtown Raleigh is not as bad as the Westwood area of LA is -- people just keep driving a block or so out and then park. Westwood sounds like it is/was a victim of its own success, whereas Old Pasadena is able to attract the Tiffany's and Cheesecake Factory because of the "snob appeal" of making curb spaces avalible to those who are willing to pay for it. I am happy to park and walk, but know how "unAmerican" this belief is.

It is also good to see a planner who hates "dingbat" housing (like beach houses on stilts, but with no threat of flooding, only to allow for covered parking) and "snout houses" - garage in front, house behind.

I didn't get to stay till the end, but did get a copy of the book on the way out. I think the city is on to something with the 21st Century City lecture series, and I look forward to future events. That said, I hope *all* of Raliegh is brought into the 21st century, and not just selected pieces.

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Studies of how much time and distance someone will travel to "save" money by getting a curbside space is quite telling. Downtown Raleigh is not as bad as the Westwood area of LA is -- people just keep driving a block or so out and then park. Westwood sounds like it is/was a victim of its own success, whereas Old Pasadena is able to attract the Tiffany's and Cheesecake Factory because of the "snob appeal" of making curb spaces avalible to those who are willing to pay for it. I am happy to park and walk, but know how "unAmerican" this belief is.

It is also good to see a planner who hates "dingbat" housing (like beach houses on stilts, but with no threat of flooding, only to allow for covered parking) and "snout houses" - garage in front, house behind.

I didn't get to stay till the end, but did get a copy of the book on the way out. I think the city is on to something with the 21st Century City lecture series, and I look forward to future events. That said, I hope *all* of Raliegh is brought into the 21st century, and not just selected pieces.

Terrific summary- I wish I could have gone. Were people receptive? Were any people against what he was proposing?

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I was there tonight. Very interesting talk. (BTW, webguy, I was the one who asked about applying the new parking policies outside of DT Raleigh)

I am glad someone asked. I had to step out during the Q&A....the Starbucks coffee got to me. It would be good to have the proposal city-wide to change the development patterns that we normally see. If Raleigh gets to the point of adopting the recommendations he was suggesting, it would be interesting to see if that would lead to redevelopment of existing "strip" centers.

I wished he could have talked a bit more about the strategy at Old Pasedena and if it spurred transit use at all.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

WRAL story on how the city is looking at removing downtown parking requirements.

Quotes Hatem on how he'd need to add hundreds of parking spaces to satisfy parking for his Helig-Levine project (I think that's it) while the nearby city parking deck is partly empty. Also mentions a project in Glenwood South--I bet that the "restaraunt going in next to Helios (Hibernian Entertainment owns it)--that was delayed for years while they tried to lease parking. Wow, that shows how much of a silly deterent these antiquated rules are for good urban development and RE-development. There's no need to require developers to provide rediculous amounts of parking in an urban environment.

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WRAL story on how the city is looking at removing downtown parking requirements.

Quotes Hatem on how he'd need to add hundreds of parking spaces to satisfy parking for his Helig-Levine project (I think that's it) while the nearby city parking deck is partly empty. Also mentions a project in Glenwood South--I bet that the "restaraunt going in next to Helios (Hibernian Entertainment owns it)--that was delayed for years while they tried to lease parking. Wow, that shows how much of a silly deterent these antiquated rules are for good urban development and RE-development. There's no need to require developers to provide rediculous amounts of parking in an urban environment.

Well, I certainly hope they relax this requirement some.

If Helig-Levine project is next to a mostly empty parking deck, then requiring new parking would just be silly.

And I don't really think parking is an issue for Glenwood South right now (unless someone builds a really huge new building there). The biggest parking trouble is usually from people too lazy to park on side streets and walk a couple of blocks. :P

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The biggest parking trouble is usually from people too lazy to park on side streets and walk a couple of blocks. :P
You mean each and every person who claims that a lack of parking is a significant deterrent keeping them from going downtown more often? (Which seems to somehow constitute the majority of Raleigh residents?)
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You mean each and every person who claims that a lack of parking is a significant deterrent keeping them from going downtown more often? (Which seems to somehow constitute the majority of Raleigh residents?)

Strip center mentaility is what I call it. Have to park right in front of the store or shop and people get use to it. There can be a parking spot closest to the store yet someone will skip it and park in the fire lane.

I think people are scared of decks but with North Hills and others, people get use to it and don't shy away from it. Also, with the craze of larger cars in the last 10 years, it makes it harder for some people to drive the mammonth, let alone park it, so they stay away. I work with the strip center queens and if it is not in a shopping mall or some brand name, it does not exist....and many are from large northern cities....

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  • 4 weeks later...

This was posted in the transit thread, but wanted to copy it here too...

Raleigh may ease parking spot rule

It is established that there is plenty of *parking* downtown. But there is a limited amount of *convenient* parking in the area. There is also limited *visible short term* parking.

A lot of parking decks are for monthly rented spaces, not by the hour. Those that are by the hour are considered "expensive" and people play the "drive around the block" game than spend the extra dollar or so.

There is plenty of *free* 24/7/365 parking a few blocks east of Moore Square.

The quote from Councilman Craven is the problem:

"It is fundamentally unfair and it is absolutely ignoring the history of downtown," said Councilman Tommy Craven, who represents a North Raleigh district. "Twenty years ago the biggest knock on downtown was there's no parking. Twenty years later we're about to create that problem again."

Twenty years later, we have 42,000 parking spaces and a downtown people want to go to. We somehow managed to host thousands of people for at least three big events -- Raleigh Wide Open, the Christmas Parade, and First Night. We're not creating any problems by letting the market decide how much parking downtown needs. The problem is that every business needs to provide parking on their own when there is existing parking capactiy already available. The "problem" being creating is not providing the oceans of surface parking that exists in Craven's North Raleigh.

I don't like the idea of business owners getting a "parking sticker" either. How does letting them park next to their place of business all day, taking away a space from potential customers, improve the situation? How do you get ten tickets in the six months since F Street opened? Someone who spends every day downtown should be well versed in the rules. The city does not write tickets for legall parked cars.

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I have said this before but will say it again-downtown Raleigh has no parking problem. I have never had either a problem finding a spot or finding a free/cheap spot. The deck across from Exploris is never full (at least at night/weekends) and during the middle of a weekday I parked in the lot adjacent to City Market for a whopping $2 for a couple of hours.

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Agreed. The problem is that people feel like it's there God-given right to have ample free parking right in front of their destination at all times, even in DT Raleigh. Especially DT, parking is definitely not free and we should quit treating it as such.

BTW, the council voted today to pursue a plan to implement the elimination of parking requirements in the DOD (DTR). Tommy Craven voted against. :rolleyes: Interesting how a conservative will vote against loosening rules that will actually HELP small businesses and developers compete by not having to provide pricey and often excessive parking spaces. Meeker accurately mentioned the fact that there have been several small projects stalled for years because of these rules--notably the Solas project on Glenwood South.

I believe the revised ordinance will be up for a hearing later this spring.

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"It is fundamentally unfair and it is absolutely ignoring the history of downtown," said Councilman Tommy Craven, who represents a North Raleigh district. "Twenty years ago the biggest knock on downtown was there's no parking. Twenty years later we're about to create that problem again."

Translation: "The people in my portion of the city are too stupid to figure out how to park downtown unless it's like pulling into a gas station. Don't even get me started on those Hillsborough Street roundabouts. Driving through one of those is like differential calculus to me and Dennis Rogers."

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  • 2 weeks later...

In Mayor Meeker's state of the city speech, he suggested new parking rules similar to those recommended by Dr. Shoup, author of The Hidden Cost of Free Parking. Long term parking in decks would get cheaper, and curb spaces would cost more to raise funds and make people think twice about their parking choice.

This is hopeful as well, though I wonder which "citizens" will get selected for this.

Meeker suggested the city form a citizens group to work with a parking consultant, and provide some answers by summer.
A quote from an existing retailer is strange...

"My store is closing because of parking," said Pirya Victoria Rohira, who owns Daniel's Clothing on Wilmington Street. "You can go to the mall and park for free. My customers are older and in wheelchairs. They don't want to park far away. If this intention is to kill the retail businesses, then do it."

How can parking be an issue if they are on the same block as the Moore Square parking deck? How have they stayed in business as long as they have if parking is the issue? How many of the older, wheelchair bound customers are coming from the Sir Walter and don't need to park? Why have they done nothing to appeal to a broader customer base?

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Honestly I don't get these people. Raleigh has by far the easiest parking I have ever seen-easier than Greensboro and Chapel Hill even. The other day I parked in the NC Museums lot and paid a buck and it took me less than 3 minutes to get on F Street. The lot was half empty at mid-day and in a prime location downtown.

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^ Simple... most Americans feel it's their God-given right to 100% free parking RIGHT IN FRONT of their chosen destination. In reality--as ncwebguy and others who attended the parking lecture know--it is absolutely not free.

Supply and demand... DT is booming and showing no signs of slowing and so parking will be in high demand... we have to start charging for it and paying back the neighborhoods that generate it... can you imagine what could be done after a few years (of collecting parking fees) for say... Wilmington St? Salisbury St, Hargett St? etc. I actually was in Old Pasadena (topic of Shoup's lecture) last week and their DT is booming with tons af great shops that we could only dream of having in our DT... we need to follow their lead.

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I see a lot of parking lots around downtown, but at night there are few "free" places, and far too many places that are simply off limits. I don't mind paying $5 at a parking deck and walking a few blocks to soak in the "city", but I can see where some people don't like that.

This is a strip mall city. If people expect to park up front in a convenient and free parking lot, can you blame them? I certainly understand their expectations, and how they've formed those expectations.

When is Raleigh going to adopt mass transit? :D CAT is useless if you live anywhere outside the Beltline--and it's usefulness is questionable IMO inside the Beltline unless you're going somewhere on the east side. And the $12 cab fare from my apartment to downtown gets pricey after a while.

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^ Few free places? I'm guessing the parts of downtown you must be visiting are Glenwood South and Warehouse District? Cuz that is true somewhat for those two parts. However, they have a bit more free spots along side streets to choose from, compared to other parts of downtown.

In the main core of downtown there are half a dozen city-owned decks that are free at night and some on weekends, too.

If there's a place you go to downtown often, and need to know a good parking place for it, I'm sure there are enough folks around this board who could give you the best ideas where to park, not to mention the parking lot maps on downtownraleigh.org.. You might have to walk a block or two...but that's part of being in an urban environment. :thumbsup:

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Outside of dropping a few quarters in front of city market, I have never ever paid to park downtown (I do not work downtown though). But at night? I expect to park for free because its well, pretty easy to find street spaces anywhere except right on Glenwood. Even the Moore Square deck is free at night if you are hanging out on Fayetteville or city market.

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Parking should not be free if there is a high demand for it... basic free market economics. If during the day, parking is free on the streets (it is in most of the DT core) then the demand is vastly overstripping supply because the decks are half empty (since you have to pay to park there--as in the typical office worker with the $80 monthly acct), and people are driving all over the streets searching endlessly for free parking. What we have now is completely backwards from what economics tells us.

Remove all off-street parking requirements for new buildings (then Hatem can convert one of his old office bldgs to condos without having to worry about parking!), make the on-street parking (which should be considered premium since it is usually most convenient) $1-2/hr during the peak periods such that the people who really want to park next to their destination will prefer to pay a slightly higher fee for the privilege of doing so. If you'd rather not pay more, just park in one of several decks that charge a lower fee and just walk a block or two. During the off-peak preiods, reduce the fee for on-street parking comensurate with the demand for that time period.

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^ Few free places? I'm guessing the parts of downtown you must be visiting are Glenwood South and Warehouse District? Cuz that is true somewhat for those two parts. However, they have a bit more free spots along side streets to choose from, compared to other parts of downtown.

In the main core of downtown there are half a dozen city-owned decks that are free at night and some on weekends, too.

If there's a place you go to downtown often, and need to know a good parking place for it, I'm sure there are enough folks around this board who could give you the best ideas where to park, not to mention the parking lot maps on downtownraleigh.org.. You might have to walk a block or two...but that's part of being in an urban environment. :thumbsup:

My "regular" spots downtown are Jackpot and Aries, and parking is a no-brainer for those places. When I am forced to endure Glenwood South (thanks to "friends"), parking becomes a bit more difficult. In order to park reasonably close, I generally just give up and find a parking deck or something. I'm not very patient and driving around for 20 minutes trying to find a spot on the street usually pisses me off more than being in Glenwood South in the first place :)

I see a lot of parking lots that are posted with "no parking without permit" signs. They often say nothing about the legality of parking there after hours... and I'm not about to find out if it's legal. People who don't come downtown often are even more bewildered by this I'm sure.

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