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Planning for a new downtown arena


Subway Scoundrel

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I had previously put forward this site, but I favor the one rooster posted.

I like a soccer specific stadium on this site. I have a feeling MLB would turn into a low-attendance disaster in Raleigh. MLS is getting a lot of excitement from expansion teams Seattle, Portland, and Vancover as well as a lot of teams building soccer specific stadiums. Get the Railhawks out of Cary and into downtown Raleigh, build a larger fan base (avg 15k-20k fans per game) and move up to MLS soon after.

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I like a soccer specific stadium on this site. I have a feeling MLB would turn into a low-attendance disaster in Raleigh. MLS is getting a lot of excitement from expansion teams Seattle, Portland, and Vancover as well as a lot of teams building soccer specific stadiums. Get the Railhawks out of Cary and into downtown Raleigh, build a larger fan base (avg 15k-20k fans per game) and move up to MLS soon after.

I disagree completely for the reasons I oppose an inner city football stadium... the site footprint would be way too big and not produce enough dates per year to make much of an economic impact to justify the move.

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I disagree completely for the reasons I oppose an inner city football stadium... the site footprint would be way too big and not produce enough dates per year to make much of an economic impact to justify the move.

I would support a small inner city football stadium (perhaps on the SE Raleigh side) that would be home to the Railhawks, plus Shaw and St. Aug's football, plus high school football and soccer games. Lots of potential for community events, etc.

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I was just thinking that it be nice to have a stadium on this site rather than empty warehouses and surface parking (and yes, I know those aren't the only two options, but still...). Put bars, restaurants, and retail fronting the street then. Even if you dont, who cares if only 20,000 people actually go into the stadium only 20 times a year, how many people spend a lot of economic-stimulating, city-supporting time here now?

As far as the footprint, that's why I suggest MLS stadium. Only needs to seat 25-30k max, not a large stadium at all. Look at how small of a footprint the Columbus Crew stadium is if you need a reference. (Also, if you align W. Johnson St. and get rid of the bend in Harrington St, the block becomes much more accommodating)

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As I said earlier on this topic, I think the ultimate location is

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sour...sa=N&tab=wl

Right in the middle of South Wilmington Street. Now, the dog food plant would have to move and the public housing location would have to move. Right near the railroad tracks for public transit and S. Wilmington could cirlce around the arena like the Bobcats arena in Charlotte. An on ramp to I-40 would have to be built.

That said, I think the time would be around 2025 or so. I also think that there will have to be parking unless things change greatly. A large revenue stream for the Canes is parking and if a rev stream is killed, they may balk. Also, they would not want to kill the tailgating scene. They still do this for Panther games but those are on Sundays when the businesses are closed. The key to a nice arena and what people here are use to are large concourses. In cities where they have placed an arena in a tight city block, the concourses are small. Montreal Bell Center is the worse as it takes 20 minutes of walking in a crowd just to exit the building. Winnipeg is the same with small concourses. They just changed one end of a building at the Air Canada Center in Toronto. Go to Anahiem and the concourses are not as big as RBC , but close. Same with Staples Center in LA.

This could change but much of the Canes fan base today and who knows in 15 years lives outside the beltline. Going DT would be a city push but not sure the Canes org is looking forward to moving DT but will depend on the revenue stream they get out of the arena. Like many deals, it may include some development rights to property near by. karmonos is not a developer but who knows who will own the team at that point.

But putting it at this location, it extends DT east/south over MLK and works it way toward new development down S. Wilmington which is prime right now .

JMHO

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A downtown arena (in either downtown) does not make any sense.

Your model, once again, is not Charlotte. The Triangle is a multi-pronged metropolitan area, more along the lines of a Dallas/Ft. Worth. And for all of the considerable clout that downtown Dallas has, it has only one of the area's major sports venues -- the AA Center. The AA Center would probably be in Arlington too, if it weren't for the desire of the Mavericks and Stars of being near the corporate nexus of Dallas and their luxury box consumption. DTR has a very low corporate profile. In fact, most of the corporate presence of the Triangle is in the RTP. And let's not forget, DTR boosters, that the majority of those players have Durham County addresses, if not Cary or Morrisville.

The more palpable argument is that DTR is, as the argument was made by others, too far away from the center of population. If two-thirds of your target market is west of Blue Ridge Rd., what sense does DTR make, especially given that parking costs will invariably go up (even if the supply is there)? If Clayton and Smithfield each had about 100,000 people, I think you could make an argument for it. But the demographics, travel dynamics and transportation supply (the Triangle's two outer beltways will converge near Morrisville, if and when they are built), and localization of wealth definitely favor, if anything, that a new arena would go west of the current facility. Lack of mass transit makes the whole thing a non-starter for DTR.

A stadium is even more non-sensical in DTR. Forget MLB. In the current paradigm, Raleigh could not even begin to support a major league baseball team. Even larger, wealthy cities like Minneapolis, Denver, and Phoenix struggle to support their teams in a system with no salary cap. Meanwhile, the Kansas Citys, the Cincinnatis, and the Milwaukees are getting killed in much the same way that their blue collar workforces are. There isn't a Southern city outside of Florida (and that state's teams are a little shaky too) or Atlanta that could keep an MLB team alive. NFL is not an option either. Charlotte already grabbed that prize, and any future expansion teams will be LA bound. MLS would be a good play, but for the same reasons I cited for the arena, an MLS stadium would make more sense in Cary or Morrisville.

I enjoy hearing your accounts of new ventures popping up in places like Glenwood South and Mordecai. I'm sure that the Devereaux area could be a jewel for something good, but its sports days are long past. I've made the admonition here before that you shouldn't try to make DTR something it's not. You would be better off building another full-blown college campus down in those areas you've cited, or technology museums, or things that are more 24/7 and people-intensive than sports facilities. At the same time, it would probably be easier to build another downtown out by the RTP, with all of those sports perks, than to try to cram everything into the very small confines of downtown Raleigh.

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IMHO... ;)

It's not about where people live, it's where they want to "play".

An arena needs plenty of parking,(downtown has got it in spades).

An arena needs places to eat, (downtown has plenty).

An arena needs places to sleep,(also rooms aplenty).

An arena needs access from other cities...(downtown is accessible from all places).

Etc...

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^ True on all counts I would say, but with the caveat that you don't want to ruin the living environment of those folks who invested in downtown as a neighborhood. Without rehashing the whole debate, an arena *near* downtown as opposed to right smack in our downtown is preferable. The location down by Red Roof has the ability to extend downtown if the infrastructure is properly arranged....then our downtown would be home to neighborhoods of different character (quietish, more active etc. ) and be a place with monumental size playgrounds all at the same time. I think the term "play" meeds to be wheedled into types of "play" just like living options are (condo, townhouse, single family) and commercial is (restaurant, daily need and luxury). Play of course overlaps commercial, but the size of the crowds drawn and the frequency of those crowds are key in thinking this stuff through.

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^ True on all counts I would say, but with the caveat that you don't want to ruin the living environment of those folks who invested in downtown as a neighborhood. Without rehashing the whole debate, an arena *near* downtown as opposed to right smack in our downtown is preferable. The location down by Red Roof has the ability to extend downtown if the infrastructure is properly arranged....then our downtown would be home to neighborhoods of different character (quietish, more active etc. ) and be a place with monumental size playgrounds all at the same time. I think the term "play" meeds to be wheedled into types of "play" just like living options are (condo, townhouse, single family) and commercial is (restaurant, daily need and luxury). Play of course overlaps commercial, but the size of the crowds drawn and the frequency of those crowds are key in thinking this stuff through.

I really like your ideas...however....

My first concern is that building an arena that far away from other foot traffic places,(rest., hotel-besides Red Roof, shops), and even though it is closer to downtown and you could build a light rail link? Maybe we should design/build that area into an entertainment section of downtown? Then include the arena and other facilities? :huh:

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I really like your ideas...however....

My first concern is that building an arena that far away from other foot traffic places,(rest., hotel-besides Red Roof, shops), and even though it is closer to downtown and you could build a light rail link? Maybe we should design/build that area into an entertainment section of downtown? Then include the arena and other facilities? :huh:

I don't consider a facility resembling the current RBC Center a foot traffic facility. I know there are arenas out there that fit into downtown areas fine...Verizon Center comes to mind. After enduring the Harley festival again this year, I remain concerned that our downtown's physical smallness will make it hard to simultaneously be a grand scale "play" area and be a residential downtown. Making downtown bigger functionally gives us a bigger shopping basket to work with (bad analogy)

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I don't consider a facility resembling the current RBC Center a foot traffic facility. I know there are arenas out there that fit into downtown areas fine...Verizon Center comes to mind. After enduring the Harley festival again this year, I remain concerned that our downtown's physical smallness will make it hard to simultaneously be a grand scale "play" area and be a residential downtown. Making downtown bigger functionally gives us a bigger shopping basket to work with (bad analogy)

I agree!

IMHO we need to expand downtown southward, near the Red Roof Inn, and in doing so maybe the city can buy some of that land in that area and build the arena, Lake Meeker,(Ha! Ha!), condo's, townhomes with a (downtown) version of North Hills? :)

My thoughts on our first downtown arena are that it shouldn't look or be like the arena's of old. If in 10 plus years we could get the much bigger by then,(Capital Bank) or Progress Energy, to help finance the building,with there name in lights of course, to foot the bill they could build my version of an arena....

One that includes a light rail stop/shopping mall like atmosphere/retail/attached parking....maybe something akin to the Mall Of America in MN?

IMHO! and very large imagination!

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  • 5 months later...

I agree!

IMHO we need to expand downtown southward, near the Red Roof Inn, and in doing so maybe the city can buy some of that land in that area and build the arena, Lake Meeker,(Ha! Ha!), condo's, townhomes with a (downtown) version of North Hills? :)

My thoughts on our first downtown arena are that it shouldn't look or be like the arena's of old. If in 10 plus years we could get the much bigger by then,(Capital Bank) or Progress Energy, to help finance the building,with there name in lights of course, to foot the bill they could build my version of an arena....

One that includes a light rail stop/shopping mall like atmosphere/retail/attached parking....maybe something akin to the Mall Of America in MN?

IMHO! and very large imagination!

There's a lot of old neighborhoods in that area. How would that affect the area if downtown expanded up that far? I actually live on Falls of Neuse not too far from that Red Roof.

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Caraleigh already had its guts ripped out by South Saunders being extended and widened past it. Other than that you have a handful of houses that overlook the Bain plant (cool little shacks....almost like a step back in time), plus Hertford Village off Wilmington. Carolina Pines is sufficiently far away to not feel much impact if any. The area is 95% a cleared out vacant lot that sits adjacent to the interstate and greenway. I live in Caraleigh and would be ok with it with some improvements to go with it such as a Wilmington St interchange (if one can even be fit in that tiny space)

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  • 3 months later...

^ Except the Staples Center is kinda over to the side of DT LA proper, near the massive convention center. They have been trying to reinvent that whole area with LA Live and such, but the downtown is in such bad shape, it's going to take much more than an arena, convention center and a few condos to make it lively. Honestly, DT LA is one of the worst downtowns for a large city that I've seen.

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RBC Center will probably last 40 years. Who knows what the politics will be then, but NCSU didn't want the new arena in downtown 25 years ago -- and I don't imagine that NCSU will want it in downtown 25 years from now. Nor do the Hurricanes have any reason to want it downtown; most of their season ticket holders live in north Raleigh or Cary/Apex/Morrisville, for whom the current location is ideal.

By the time a new arena is planned, the proportion of Wake County residents who live inside the City of Raleigh will be even smaller than it is now. (This percentage has been dropping slowly but steadily since the 1970s.)

In short, the Mayor is pushing a rope by trying to place a future replacement arena in downtown. And besides, with the Lightner Center and Raleigh Union Station on the plate already, plus some kind of solution to the mess at Crabtree, you'd think he has enough on his mind.

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  • 9 months later...

A new downtown arena would need to have a different function primarily since the Pack would never move there (if the RBCC becomes obsolete in 2035, NC State would move back on campus into a spanking new facilty on Centennial Campus). I don't know that concerts and other big attractions would use the new building since the new Raleigh Amphitheater may have already negated the need for a downtown arena. Hence, Downtown Arena=a modern day Dorton Arena with little purpose.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@kdub1:Yes, I agree that a new downtown arena would have to have other functions, most likely a new home of a pro team?.... But yes, please, let NC State stay either in the RBC Center or move back to a newly renovated Dorton Arena? Or as you said,"into a spanking new facility on CC!" I would personally be fine with either choice.

As far as the new Raleigh Amphitheater is concerned, this location/facility was always meant to be temporary. The idea is to eventually expand the Raleigh Convention Center into that location and build an arena somewhere in the downtown area. A new well thought-out ,placed/designed/built arena downtown would serve many people/organizations and uses....in the future! IMHO!

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  • 1 year later...

https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203547115201919631866.0004b1f5af3ed4a90fc3a&msa=0 

 

Here's an idea I've been working on for a while.  The area around Peace / Capital / Glenwood seems to have the best combination of factors to support a stadium/arena. 

  • First of all, access will be crucial.  If anybody has tried to move around downtown during a huge event (4th of July, Bike Rally, even some First Fridays), then you know the headache that could occur with 15,000 people in one space.  That's why being near Capital and 2 Light Rail Stations would be ideal. 
  • The stadium could mainly host professional soccer & lacrosse teams and concerts to replace the temporary amphitheater.  But there a lot of other options too (high school football championships, NCAA soccer finals, monster truck/bmx...).
  • The current area is a dead zone immediately adjacent to one of the biggest entertainment districts in Glenwood South.  A stadium has the potential to expand the district with major retailers, a movie theater, etc.  Maybe a river/(creek)walk.
  • The surrounding development could be home to corporate relocations taking advantage of the light rail stations and the exposure of being next to a stadium.
  • Lastly, I'd like to see a different architect be assigned to each building so that the area doesn't turn into a group similar buildings.

The beauty of the area now being mostly vacant / underused is that the infrastructure improvements could begin very soon.  The stadium & the various buildings could be completed individually as the market dictates.  However, light rail is an absolute must for this and who knows when that could materialize.

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I'm just guessing the nearby neighborhoods would have an issue with traffic, noise and light pollution, but maybe not... But as I think was pointed out a few years ago in this thread it is an excellent spot for all the reasons you listed. I am surely not an advocate of vehicle dependence but parking would be a primary concern for a lot of people there too, so a deck would have to be built that probably has a Capital Blvd ramp and possible incorporating a reconfigured West Street. 

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The only neighborhood that I think could have a problem with this might be Brooklyn.  Cameron Park has a pretty clear divider with St Marys Street and the two blocks between Glenwood maintain a transition zone to a quieter neighborhood.  If anything, Cameron Park should be pleased that the growth is being encouraged to the East of Glenwood rather than into that transition area.

 

I definitely agree about traffic/parking.  Light rail is an absolute must to make it work.  The current light rail proposal extends north to Millbrook Rd and West to downtown Cary.  I figure park and rides at either end would catch North Raleigh & Cary residents not wanting to deal with parking.  For urban arenas, planners usually count on 10-15% arriving by mass transit/walking/biking - realistically we would be on the low end of that.  So for a event with 15k people that means maybe 1,500. [i wonder what the stats on transit ridership for the Charlotte arena is?]  Assuming an average of 2.7 people per car, you would need parking for about 5100 cars just for the event.  What about the state government parking decks?  Is it realistic to think that maybe they would open those to the public on non-business hours?  Source of revenue for the govt??

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I think that we will have the PNC arena, in its current location, for a long time to come. But when it's time to replace it, the replacement should go downtown just to the west of the Performing Arts center, not at the Devereaux Meadows site.

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Green_man is right. I've been to umpteen events at the Omni, Phillips Arena, and the Georgia Dome in Atlanta. Even heavy-rail MARTA struggles to accommodate a few thousand people who leave an event simultaneously. Queues of an hour to board a train are not unheard of. Parking and traffic flow are still the major considerations for a new arena in Raleigh. Besides, the next arena will probably be larger than the ESA/RBC/PNC, more like 22K. 

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