Planning for a new downtown arena

[Green_man]

I'd like to see an open-air stadium near Glenwood South by 2025.  And then a new hockey/bball arena near the Performing Arts center by 2030.

[49er]

The beauty of a downtown location would be that no dedicated parking would be needed if you've got a substantial amount of structured parking within a 10 minute walk. Charlotte's arena has zero dedicated parking, only service and loading. The light rail can't handle the crowds though, because the train sets are currently too small due to cutbacks during construction. You'll need longer train sets to expect to better handle the big crowds. You've still got to assume that most people will arrive by automobile. Neither Charlotte or Raleigh is NYC. 

[DanRNC]

^The people of the Raleigh area would lose their minds if there wasn't dedicated parking for an arena-that's one reason people love the current location with miles of surface lots.

[RALNATIVE]

^The people of the Raleigh area would lose their minds if there wasn't dedicated parking for an arena-that's one reason people love the current location with miles of surface lots.

 

A parking deck is out of the question because they need to be able to tailgate .

[Green_man]

I didn't set out with the mindset of brainstorming a downtown Raleigh stadium, but after reading about some of the obstacles with Orlando's soccer stadium (land acquisition) and looking into Charlotte's minor league baseball stadium, it kinda dawned on me that Raleigh has a site that would be relatively easy to develop into a minor league baseball stadium:  the block where the Amphitheater currently is combined with the block directly south of that (closing Lenoir St).

 

Reasons:

1. City of Raleigh already owns most of the land.  (mostly vacant, or officially "temporary" uses)

2. Easy car access into and out of downtown.

3. Four existing parking decks within 1 block walk.

4. On the R-line route, and somewhat near Union Station.

5. Two hotels within 2 blocks and another in the planning process.

6. Durham is growing to the point where they should be less reliant on Raleigh residents to support the Bulls... and thereby waive the MiLB proximity rule.

7. Mudcats are on a downhill slide in Zebulon (with regards to both attendance and viability).

8. New stadium can absorb the amphitheater events.

9. The combined blocks are approx the same footprint as Charlotte's new AAA stadium (minus the outparcel buildings included on their block similar to the buildings in the DBAP outfield).

10. Could be the catalyst for more development at the south end of downtown (enterprise lot, empty lots in front of performing arts center, firestone block, and extending the downtown footprint west of the train tracks)

11. Tourist draw for convention-goers, cheap night out for families, another entertainment option for young professionals.

 

I don't even like baseball, but I would go to probably a dozen games a year just for the entertainment. 

 

On 99.9 The Fan (sports radio) last Friday, Adam & Joe were doing a preview of the State-Carolina baseball series.  They were talking with a writer from Baseball America who had an offhand comment that too bad there wasn't a larger downtown stadium that they could move the series to.

 

Lastly, compared to the $225 million for the convention center, $60 million for a minor league baseball stadium seems fairly do-able - and something that seems like it could be paid for by a tourism/convention tax.  I mean Greensboro & Winston-Salem managed it somehow, right?

[Euphorius]

I've always thought an arena should go in the area where those run down apartments are in between Western, S. Saunders, S. Dawson, and South.

[Brendan]

IMHO, I don't think downtown Raleigh baseball will ever happen.  Capitol Broadcasting owns the Bulls. They aren't going to waive any proximity rules to allow an ownership group in Raleigh to have a team in their primary market, regardless of Durham support.  As an aside, It's amazing how invisible the Mudcats have become.  

[Green_man]

Another option would be to start a franchise in the independent Atlantic League.  In fact, seems like a group in Virginia Beach is trying to do exactly that even though Norfolk has a AAA team less than 15 miles away.  But adding an independent team in Raleigh would actually kill the Mudcats franchise rather than just move them.

[ctl]

I agree - it's as if the Mudcats made a conscious decision to quit promoting their team west of a line from Knightdale and Clayton. And if that's the case, it does make some business sense. Even with improved access to Five County Stadium over the US 64 Bypass, class A ball can't compete with the AAA Bulls for people who have easy access to DBAP. Meanwhile the population of east Wake has grown, and it's likely to continue growing. There should be enough fans in east Wake and the other four counties to support an A team.

 

Still, it's disappointing. I remember the Mudcats in the 1990s as the dominant local team -- before DBAP and the Bulls' promotion to AAA. And I do enjoy watching baseball in the middle of nowhere. 

[Green_man]

Yesterday's bond vote got me thinking... if a $75 million bond translates to a 1.12 cent property tax increase (about $37 a year for my $330,000 house) - seems like a similar bond could be used to build a downtown stadium at a fairly cheap cost to taxpayers.

 

One idea would be to combine the current Red Hat Amphitheater block with the block directly to the South (closing Lenoir St for 1 block) - and building there.  The new stadium could be designed to be sectioned off to also hold amphitheater events - so you could continue getting the same use out of the space and then plus some.  Another benefit would be many of the necessary parking decks and hotels are already in place or planned.

 

Something like Rotherham's New York Stadium would seem like a perfect fit for Raleigh and - if wikipedia is to be believed - only cost about $31 million.  (Raleigh already owns much of the land here too so that minimizes costs a bit.) 

 

Another reference point... Charlotte's new minor league baseball stadium looks to be about $54 million.

 

All that being said, if we were to pass a $45 million bond to help build a 15,000 seat soccer/lacrosse/concert venue it seems like it would only be about a 0.67 cent property tax increase and would essentially be upgrading an existing facility to have more uses... seems like a no-brainer to me.

[ctl]

Yesterday's outcomes are encouraging, but bond issues don't always pass. A school bond package failed in 1999, and more surprisingly in retrospect a bond package for RDU expansion failed in 1968. It can happen. The timing is bad, or the public gets an impression (right or wrong) that the project isn't well scoped, or campaign tactics are bad, etc.

 

The more successful bond issues, especially at the city level, offer something for everybody -- roads in different parts of the city, parks in different parts of the city, etc. Or they find an earmarked primary source of income to pay for the bonds, so that property taxes aren't hit; that's how the convention center was funded. But putting a downtown stadium onto the ballot "naked" could be risky. I don't know that the city council has the nerve to try it.

[Jones_]

I found it interesting that the bonds passed heavily in downtown districts despite the fact that most of the stuff in them benefitted only the outlying areas...new schools and expanded roads on the fringes. A thankless job supporting growth from the inside. Having noted that, I wonder if an overlay tax district of some sort could support a stadium....? Can special tax districts be used to leverage bonds I assume?