Drive for 'Center City' retail

[KJHburg]

A city Target is basically a glorified Walgreens. I have been to one the one in Chapel Hill. Believe me it would complement the existing Midtown Target not take anything away from it.  It is basic food, pharmacy, some seasonal items, few household items and Starbucks.  That's it.  Imagine the Walgreens uptown with a Starbucks that is what it is.  Down West Trade might be a good place but there could be 2 of these uptown and I think they would thrive.  Order something from target.com could be delivered here.   

I guess I should not say Walgreens for it actually has a mini CVS in it.  http://www.collegetownnc.com/unc-ch-students-can-shop-at-franklin-street-mini-target-starting-july-19/

I still think we need an urban format QuikTrip which is smaller but nicer than a 7-11. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by KJHburg
Link added

[elrodvt]

I'm wondering whether the city could create a zoning requirement/district which requires not only every ground floor contain "some amount?" of retail but also that they be open at least 6 days per week. We don't want more of these places that are open only for the office workers in prime locations. Makes many prime blocks in uptown very dead on weekends. I have no idea what can go in a zoning rule under NC law though. Perhaps there could be some tax incentives for existing properties to drive conversions.

Uptown has huge swaths of dead areas. I think we need to promote an entertainment and shopping district via the above. Start with 3-4 square blocks to drive density then gradually expand it. Something like 5th to Stonewall and College to Church to begin.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, elrodvt said:

I'm wondering whether the city could create a zoning requirement/district which requires not only every ground floor contain "some amount?" of retail but also that they be open at least 6 days per week. We don't want more of these places that are open only for the office workers in prime locations. Makes many prime blocks in uptown very dead on weekends. I have no idea what can go in a zoning rule under NC law though. Perhaps there could be some tax incentives for existing properties to drive conversions.

Uptown has huge swaths of dead areas. I think we need to promote an entertainment and shopping district via the above. Start with 3-4 square blocks to drive density then gradually expand it. Something like 5th to Stonewall and College to Church to begin.

Thoughts?

Thats part of the UDO, to make the Active Use Area clause a little less vague, and to better promote and give purpose to areas. You will see this in the Gold District first and foremost.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Guest

[jednc]

7 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

This is my response to this, and Uptown has a population density 6 times that of the area these two targets are in. 

posne 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I don't think a 2nd Target can't be uptown somewhere, just not at 550 E Stonewall. It's only 0.6 miles away...

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, jednc said:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I don't think a 2nd Target can't be uptown somewhere, just not at 550 E Stonewall. It's only 0.6 miles away...

How many times have you walked that lovely walk? It's super nice at night. It's ridiculous to think someone is going to walk over there and return with any significant amount of shopping and I don't think many females would feel safe. 

Btw I walk that way quite often to get to the Greenway. It totally sucks till you get there. Not very pedestrian friendly at all. 

[CLT>___]

11 hours ago, elrodvt said:

How many times have you walked that lovely walk? It's super nice at night. It's ridiculous to think someone is going to walk over there and return with any significant amount of shopping and I don't think many females would feel safe. 

Btw I walk that way quite often to get to the Greenway. It totally sucks till you get there. Not very pedestrian friendly at all. 

I actually agree with @jednc. I think it would be a better move to put it on the north side of the city to give everyone more convenient access. The walk from the south side is MUCH more doable than my walk from the north side of church street to the current Target.

What about Market 42? I do not believe there is enough retail space available in the residential towers of that project to fit a city Target but the office tower could potentially have enough space if the first 1.5 floor were dedicated to retail.   

Might be another couple of projects on that side that go public that could be good candidates for a Target also.

[15895]

RDF said before Harris Teeter was looking at Lincoln Harris. Harris Teeter + Whole Foods + City Target + Apple Store would probably be enough to support other retailers along Stonewall 

[Guest]

RDF said before Harris Teeter was looking at Lincoln Harris. Harris Teeter + Whole Foods + City Target + Apple Store would probably be enough to support other retailers along Stonewall 

Yes, I said looking. But I really hope they don’t go there. I’ve long suspected they will anchor either the eventual Gateway Station, a full service grocery has been tied to the master plan for a decade or at the base of the residential tower for Brooklyn Village at the corner of 3rd and McDowell. I know they were in talks for that.

As far as Target on College goes. No retailer is going to go between 8th and 9th and College, especially not something that will rely on so much foot traffic. They will need as much sight lines to as many eyeballs as possible. I could see a Target at the new Spirit Square tower (to be announced), Legacy Union, Duke Energy #2 or replacing Publix at 10 Tryon. It must be on Tryon or stonewall in my opinion . Or maybe at Atherton, there is a 25k space there.


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[kermit]

1 hour ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

....Or maybe at Atherton, there is a 25k space there.

Yea, this would be a sure thing for Target. Nobody in Dilworth likes going to midtown (its awkward to get to plus the parking deck is the old East blvd Teeter x 1000), its transit accessible and the Southend residents alone would keep them flush.

Edited January 10, 2018 by kermit

[jednc]

13 hours ago, elrodvt said:

How many times have you walked that lovely walk? It's super nice at night. It's ridiculous to think someone is going to walk over there and return with any significant amount of shopping and I don't think many females would feel safe. 

Btw I walk that way quite often to get to the Greenway. It totally sucks till you get there. Not very pedestrian friendly at all. 

I'm sure not as often as you, but I've walked it more than most I'd say. I do not live uptown but occasionally will run or walk uptown when I have to be in the area anyway. I sometimes park at Target and then head uptown. I have also parked there for many Panthers' Games over the years and walked. I do not consider it a big deal but I'm sure you or others can tell me why I'm all wrong about that. I do not mind walking and I wouldn't mind walking pulling a small cart behind full of whatever I bought at Target.

Some of the urban dwellers on here seem to be very fragile...but whatever. Maybe Target will locate in the bottom of their building and then they'll only have to endure the elevator ride (oh the humanity).

[elrodvt]

18 minutes ago, jednc said:

I'm sure not as often as you, but I've walked it more than most I'd say. I do not live uptown but occasionally will run or walk uptown when I have to be in the area anyway. I sometimes park at Target and then head uptown. I have also parked there for many Panthers' Games over the years and walked. I do not consider it a big deal but I'm sure you or others can tell me why I'm all wrong about that. I do not mind walking and I wouldn't mind walking pulling a small cart behind full of whatever I bought at Target.

Some of the urban dwellers on here seem to be very fragile...but whatever. Maybe Target will locate in the bottom of their building and then they'll only have to endure the elevator ride (oh the humanity).

So you would be good with your wife walking over there alone after work at night?

Walking it for a run or whatever is what I do too. And I go when the weather is nice and generally not at night. But imagine if you had to get something today and it's 100 out or raining. Trust me, It's really just not a player when you talk uptown retail. I think many who live here have said that.  It's not a matter of "fragility". 

As a general comment not aimed at you, posters really should consider giving weight to the opinions of those who actually live in the place you're talking about.

Now Atherton is more reasonable as the walk is much nicer and it's simple to take the train back with your nice new insta-pot. 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

But imagine if you had to get something today and it's 100 out or raining.

In those situations I'd go with an Uber or a Lyft... you're within 277 it takes <5 minutes for them to come pick you up!

[jednc]

6 hours ago, elrodvt said:

• So you would be good with your wife walking over there alone after work at night?
• As a general comment not aimed at you, posters really should consider giving weight to the opinions of those who actually live in the place you're talking about.
• Now Atherton is more reasonable as the walk is much nicer and it's simple to take the train back with your nice new insta-pot. 

1

1

• I am single so can't answer for sure but I probably would not be ok with my wife walking alone. But, it doesn't have to be black/white. I am 100% behind a Target Mini going in uptown somewhere. I just don't believe it will be on Stonewall that close to their Midtown location and if I lived at the new 550 Stonewall I wouldn't mind walking to the Midtown location if I needed to go to Target.
• I 100% agree with you about giving weight. And as a general comment not aimed at you (I am being honest here, it's really not aimed at just you or anyone else in particular), I was born in NC and I plan to die here and I think my opinions deserve more weight than a newcomers do. I can't seem to get any of them to agree though.
• I think Atherton (or that area) is probably where a 2nd Target of any size will land for exactly the reason you said.

Edited January 10, 2018 by jednc

[KJHburg]

Can we all just get together for a McCafe coffee uptown?  Oh thats right we no longer have a McDonalds uptown. 

Not over it yet,   

Former French Fry chef McDonalds Burke VA

and for the record I am a Charlotte native LOL

In terms of the Chapel Hill mini Target it is on the ground floor of some Northwood Ravin apartments on Franklin, the main shopping street in town of course. 

Their new Raleigh Hillsborough St store is 23,000 sq ft and surrounded by NC State and hundreds and hundreds of apartments.  

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article112275287.html   Legacy, Atherton, along N Tryon somewhere, or maybe the ground floor of the Polk bldg  renovation whereever that happens.  Isn't  Northwood Ravin involved in that?  and yes they are here is Clayton Sealey's story on it

http://www.charlottefive.com/shame-james-k-polk-building-wasting-away-uptown-heres-become/

Edited January 10, 2018 by KJHburg

[TheOneRJ]

On 1/10/2018 at 6:00 PM, KJHburg said:

Can we all just get together for a McCafe coffee uptown?  Oh thats right we no longer have a McDonalds uptown. 

Not over it yet,   

Former French Fry chef McDonalds Burke VA

and for the record I am a Charlotte native LOL

In terms of the Chapel Hill mini Target it is on the ground floor of some Northwood Ravin apartments on Franklin, the main shopping street in town of course. 

Their new Raleigh Hillsborough St store is 23,000 sq ft and surrounded by NC State and hundreds and hundreds of apartments.  

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article112275287.html   Legacy, Atherton, along N Tryon somewhere, or maybe the ground floor of the Polk bldg  renovation whereever that happens.  Isn't  Northwood Ravin involved in that?  and yes they are here is Clayton Sealey's story on it

http://www.charlottefive.com/shame-james-k-polk-building-wasting-away-uptown-heres-become/

McDonald’s inside of the BB&T building closed? 

[KJHburg]

^^Sadly yes the McDonalds is gone and employee told me that it was because they thought it attract too many homeless (that is what this guard said in the building) 

[hokiehigh]

I wonder why Founder's Hall retail doesn't fill up.   It seems like it would have good foot traffic and it could be sort of a mini-mall if they got the right tenants.   Maybe the rental rate is too high or possibly BofA only wants certain tenants?   The flower shop closed about a year ago and remains empty.

[CLTProductions]

1 hour ago, hokiehigh said:

I wonder why Founder's Hall retail doesn't fill up.   It seems like it would have good foot traffic and it could be sort of a mini-mall if they got the right tenants.   Maybe the rental rate is too high or possibly BofA only wants certain tenants?   The flower shop closed about a year ago and remains empty.

I wonder this myself, all the time. 

[15895]

Maybe the coordination efforts aren’t there since it’s scattered in different buildings. And there’s really not that much space for tenants. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[Guest]

I wonder why Founder's Hall retail doesn't fill up.   It seems like it would have good foot traffic and it could be sort of a mini-mall if they got the right tenants.   Maybe the rental rate is too high or possibly BofA only wants certain tenants?   The flower shop closed about a year ago and remains empty.

I think All the spaces are too small for the traditional retailers to occupy


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[atlrvr]

It needs more fast casual dining to bring people in and have them stay.... it's difficult to access from the street and near the end of overstreet, so less natural foot traffic than, say, BofA Plaza.

[videtur quam contuor]

I have a friend who was manager of Spratt's when it was in Founder's Hall. It did good business and was profitable but caught the rear end of a decline for Levy's, the parent company which went in another direction as food service provider at the Arena rather than their own restaurant. Dunno who handles the Arena food now.

[PuppiesandKittens]

If BofA wanted any specific tenants in Founders Hall, it could get them.  I'd guess that BofA just doesn't care.

I also find the topic of a "City Target" above odd.  I go to a City Target, in Midtown Manhattan, only because the closest "real" Target is much further away.  I'd much prefer a "real" Target.  I can't see too many people going to a "City Target" uptown when there is a "real" Target on the edge of uptown. 

[15895]

When I lived in Huntersville, there was literally a Harris teeter at least within 2 miles in every direction. No exaggeration.  Anywhere you go in LKN (Cornelius, Huntersville, Davidson), you'll have at least a couple teets within a mile or two,... Thats Harris Teeters alone. Not counting Publix,  Food Lions, Earth fare, Whole Foods, Fresh Market.... If the wealthy suburbs can command so many options, I'm not sure why wealthy urban areas can't.

 

The Closest Teets in LKN are the two on Sam Furr Road 2.1 miles apart.  Either one has a Harris Teeter another slightly around 3 miles north or less. etc. 

 

 

[PuppiesandKittens]

24 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

When I lived in Huntersville, there was literally a Harris teeter at least within 2 miles in every direction. No exaggeration.  Anywhere you go in LKN (Cornelius, Huntersville, Davidson), you'll have at least a couple teets within a mile or two,... Thats Harris Teeters alone. Not counting Publix,  Food Lions, Earth fare, Whole Foods, Fresh Market.... If the wealthy suburbs can command so many options, I'm not sure why wealthy urban areas can't.

 

The Closest Teets in LKN are the two on Sam Furr Road 2.1 miles apart.  Either one has a Harris Teeter another slightly around 3 miles north or less. etc. 

 

 

They definitely can.  I'd think that part of the problem in Charlotte is that Trade and Tryon don't have many retail spaces at street level, and uptown still is office buildings + restaurants/bars for people who work in them, plus only a few other attractions.

Look at downtown Greenville, SC: it's not as wealthy as Charlotte, but Main Street in Greenville has slews of higher-end national chain stores (and other higher-end stores): Brooks Brothers, Anthropologie, Lululemon, Bluemercury, Orvis, etc., plus some locally-owned stores that are even higher-end.  I don't get it, since uptown Charlotte is larger and wealthier, and SouthPark is further from uptown than Haywood Mall is to downtown Greenville, but whatever Greenville is doing definitely is working.  Maybe just making an attractive area with a variety of attractions (Falls Park in Greenville attracts lots of people, and it's...a park) and plenty of retail spaces will do the trick?