Drive for 'Center City' retail

[15895]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

They definitely can.  I'd think that part of the problem in Charlotte is that Trade and Tryon don't have many retail spaces at street level, and uptown still is office buildings + restaurants/bars for people who work in them, plus only a few other attractions.

Look at downtown Greenville, SC: it's not as wealthy as Charlotte, but Main Street in Greenville has slews of higher-end national chain stores (and other higher-end stores): Brooks Brothers, Anthropologie, Lululemon, Bluemercury, Orvis, etc., plus some locally-owned stores that are even higher-end.  I don't get it, since uptown Charlotte is larger and wealthier, and SouthPark is further from uptown than Haywood Mall is to downtown Greenville, but whatever Greenville is doing definitely is working.  Maybe just making an attractive area with a variety of attractions (Falls Park in Greenville attracts lots of people, and it's...a park) and plenty of retail spaces will do the trick?

I haven't been to downtown Dallas, but there is a small chance I might have to relocate either to DC (god willing), NYC or Dallas. I haven't been to downtown Dallas, but after some preliminary research, it does't seem like they really have any retail neither.  disappointing.  I'm not even sure they have an actual grocery store downtown.

 

No protected bike lanes apparently. 

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/primary-election-shows-us-torn-between-sane-center-and-uber-outer-fringe-10453131

 

My initial thought is uptown might be more convenient than downtown Dallas. Charlotte is on the right track with urban amenities for residents, It would be odd to move to a giant metro who's downtown lacks the amenities coming to CLT. Whole Foods, Harris Teeter, possibly Publix. It seems like we are moving forward on a few protected bike paths, We have a movie theater, Panthers, Hornets. Supposedly we could be getting great retailers between Tryon Place and Legacy Union

 

We have the Aquatic Center. Not sure if Dallas does. etc. I just would be annoyed to move to a metro much much larger with a downtown area that lacks some convenient things Uptown does. Again, I never been and its a basic search. But, I'm disappointed so far. 

 

Seems like they have some surface lots to address also. 

 

 

And I think we are prettier lol. Than most cities, really.

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

^^^ Downtown Dallas or Houston for that matter does not any more retail than uptown Charlotte.  Downtown Dallas does have a Neiman Marcus store but my last visit to downtown Dallas 2 years there was not much street level retail.  They have a 50 story vacant office building that is being redeveloped and their office vacancy is much higher than uptown Charlotte.  However it is changing too with new apartments and residences downtown especially right north of downtown.  And they have a park on a freeway cap called  Klyde Warren Park and there are multiple museums downtown.   However I like Uptown Charlotte much better however they have some great buildings. 

[teeg]

On 3/11/2018 at 9:10 PM, PuppiesandKittens said:

They definitely can.  I'd think that part of the problem in Charlotte is that Trade and Tryon don't have many retail spaces at street level, and uptown still is office buildings + restaurants/bars for people who work in them, plus only a few other attractions.

Look at downtown Greenville, SC: it's not as wealthy as Charlotte, but Main Street in Greenville has slews of higher-end national chain stores (and other higher-end stores): Brooks Brothers, Anthropologie, Lululemon, Bluemercury, Orvis, etc., plus some locally-owned stores that are even higher-end.  I don't get it, since uptown Charlotte is larger and wealthier, and SouthPark is further from uptown than Haywood Mall is to downtown Greenville, but whatever Greenville is doing definitely is working.  Maybe just making an attractive area with a variety of attractions (Falls Park in Greenville attracts lots of people, and it's...a park) and plenty of retail spaces will do the trick?

Cannot remember where I read that Greenville made this a priority, and they have been working on it a long time.  It's quite charming.  IMO, it helps a ton that the city controls a huge amount of parking, and a lot of it is free on nights and weekends, and still pretty cheap weekdays.   

[KJHburg]

High walking scores equals good retail rental rates so says this study.  https://www.bisnow.com/national/news/retail/turns-out-walking-to-work-is-healthy-for-a-retail-economy-as-well-87007

[CriticalT]

The showmars in independence center - 101 n tryon - that was adjacent to subway is closing this Friday. 

[15895]

1 hour ago, CriticalT said:

The showmars in independence center - 101 n tryon - that was adjacent to subway is closing this Friday. 

There’s one in Hearst anyway. Way too close to each other IMO

[kermit]

While not really Charlotte-related but TBJ has an interesting illustration of the trend towards urban retail (and away from suburban retail). It appears Ikea has decided not to build its Cary store, the primary explanation was their site at Cary town center was just “too suburban” and they are only considering smaller-footprint urban stores now. I am honestly stunned, I would have thought Ikea would have been the last company to make this move.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2018/05/23/ikea-bails-on-cary.html

Now I am concerned that local developers are under-building intown retail.

here is the N+O version of the story: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article211750844.html

Edited May 24, 2018 by kermit

[LKN704]

I highly doubt that IKEA not opening in Cary has anything to do with the suburban location but rather has to do with something internally.

In addition to Cary, they also won't be building another store they previously announced (I can't remember which one) and they will be "re-evaluating" several stores they had previously announced they would be opening in the next several years. I think they just opened up a store in Oak Creek sometime this year, and Oak Creek is about a suburban as it gets. 

Keep in mind IKEA technically isn't a public, for-profit company (its governed by a foundation in the Netherlands), so it's anyone's guess as to how they are doing financially. 

All of the articles I read seemed to suggest that Cary threw a lot of money to convince them to stay.

[KJHburg]

Just back from downtown Savannah and Charleston this past week.  There are plenty of stores looking for urban locations as evidenced as what I saw.  The rent rates particularly on King St in Charleston full of retailers mostly national ones the rents here are very comparable to uptown Charlotte.   With our workforce population over 100,000 people and increasing residential growth uptown and increasing tourism I think we should have many of these stores uptown.

Neither city has a traditional anchor tenant there is a Forever 21 and H&M in downtown Charleston and Savannah has a H&M too.   

Was just in downtown Savannah this past week and they have a lot of retail along Broughton St their traditional shopping center.  Ben Carter of Atlanta bought up a lot of the properties then renovated and leased them to national tenants.  Now they have a thriving retail street that rivals King St in Charleston.  Savannah.   Many of these stores would work in  Charlotte for that matter.  In downtown Savannah there are no real anchor stores the largest store would be the H&M but it opened next to the McDonalds just recently after most of the other stores had opened.  Stores include these you might recognize J Crew, Michael Kors, Gap, Banana Republic, Bluemercury, Urban Outfitters, Vineyard and Vines, Tommy Bahama, World of Beer, MAC, Loft, Club Monaco, H&M  and of course some local favorites like Savannah Bee Co,  24e, Levy Jewelers, The Paris Market etc.   So the  street is real blend of national chains and local specialty shops,  Only one hotel on the 5 block stretch and a few restaurants but they do not dominate the streetscape.  Charlotte has a much bigger workday population and quite a few tourists (though not as many as the 2 coastal cities)  I am sure could make this work.  (and yes they have a downtown McDonalds with a walk up window great for a cold drink when it is hot this I know) 

Due to high rents uptown national chains would be the most viable and I would add Apple to the list of the uptown possibilities.  I sure hope the upcoming projects have more non-food retail.  

Photos from Savannah and Broughton Street this past week.  What obviously Charlotte does not have a bunch of historical 2-3 story buildings that can help retailers create their own identity.    (If you have not been to Savannah you really need to go only 4 hours from Charlotte) *

[videtur quam contuor]

Ben Silver, M Dumas and another or two on King Street Charleston are great men's clothing stores. Charleston long time classic shopping for men. Shop local.

[15895]

Where’s everyone at in those pictures?

[PuppiesandKittens]

Maybe the secret formula for Southern downtown retail success is (1) charming old buildings plus (2) a mediocre at best mall?

Greenville has both and seems prettier than those photos of Savannah.  Savannah must have both.  Asheville also has both.  Charlotte has neither.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Maybe the secret formula for Southern downtown retail success is (1) charming old buildings plus (2) a mediocre at best mall?

Greenville has both and seems prettier than those photos of Savannah.  Savannah must have both.  Asheville also has both.  Charlotte has neither.

Greenville prettier than Savannah? you crazy. But yea. Savannah has two very mediocre malls, on the same streets & one thats barely in the city limits. 

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Where’s everyone at in those pictures?

I try not to get people in photos and this was around 945 am before most shops had opened.  There were lots of people at the Coffee Fox on Broughton St. 

[15895]

43 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I try not to get people in photos and this was around 945 am before most shops had opened.  There were lots of people at the Coffee Fox on Broughton St. 

 

I used to be a little more impressed by urban outfitters or H&M in center city but now I’d have to say “liveliness” or “pulse” is a quality I enjoy more. Uptown has a certain pulse and energy that I like these days. 

 

And Center city has plenty of retail & shopping, technically. SouthEnd & Metropolitan are center city. Give me a Target any day over an H&M.  Downtown rents are expensive. In every city. 

 

Does downtown Houston, Dallas or Atlanta have an H&M or Urban Outfitters? Downtown Atlanta doesn’t even have a grocery store. I wouldn’t be surprised if Houston nor Dallas has a grocery store. Also not sure those 3 larger cities really have much of any retail in their downtowns. I don’t know, maybe you guys do. 

Do any of the larger/midsized cities in the south have downtown retail? Miami. Maybe Nashville. Perhaps Austin. New Orleans? 

Orlando, Charlotte, Raleigh, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas all seem like resounding no’s. I’d go as far to say Charlotte’s uptown residents have it fairly good with amenities and ease to everyday goods. 

 

 

 

 

 

[kermit]

33 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Do any of the larger/midsized cities in the south have downtown retail? Miami. Maybe Nashville. Perhaps Austin. New Orleans?

That is a good question, and honestly outside of touristy places like Charleston Asheville and Greenville I really can't think of any noteworthy retail districts in larger (non-college town) Southern cities. Downtown New Orleans is much like a less busy Charlotte once you wall off Bourbon / Canal and the casino (there is a little good retail along Magazine -- think Central ave and Thomas st). 

Its been a while since I have walked around there but I think Richmond has a little retail in downtown.

The thing that Charlotte is particularly bad at is we lack isolated retail outposts in uptown (since there really aren't any cheap buildings for things). In Birmingham, Atlanta and Nashville there are scattered large and interesting stores (e.g. outdoor stores, hobby shops, etc.) but they are always off on their own in an old (and kinda falling down) building. 

[KJHburg]

I guess the whole point I was trying to make is that uptown needs some soft good retailers.  Tourists love to shop and eat out when they are in town (or at a convention).  We have the eating out part taken care of uptown though we can always use more I guess.   Plus we have plenty of hotels and more coming.  But we are still lacking soft goods with over 120,000 workers in the uptown loop where can one buy some clothes, shoes, cosmetics, etc?  They are just very limited options currently.  What happened to all the retail next to Whole Foods all the spaces are still empty?  I do think landlords are holding out for some high rents thus we get to look at For Lease signs.  A Sephora or Ulta Beauty would kill it up uptown and so would a shoe store.  In this age of ordering online and picking up in stores so sort of mini Belks would work I do believe. 

Yes in the grocery store front we are way ahead with our Whole Foods and mini Teeter and hopefully a Publix soon.  Downtown Nashville just had a Publix opened and one is on the way to downtown Raleigh.  Downtown Atlanta has no grocery stores neither does Houston but Midtown Atlanta does which is like an adjacent downtown.  I sure hope Tryon Place delivers some retailers.  

Crescent sold their retail spaces to Asana which includes 25K sq ft in Ally Tryon Place and 22K more in Stonewall Station.  Asana: Please deliver some non food retail in the mix! 

https://www.allycharlottecenter.com/Retail-Release.pdf

Edited December 3, 2018 by KJHburg

[Guest]

I guess the whole point I was trying to make is that uptown needs some soft good retailers.  Tourists love to shop and eat out when they are in town (or at a convention).  We have the eating out part taken care of uptown though we can always use more I guess.   Plus we have plenty of hotels and more coming.  But we are still lacking soft goods with over 120,000 workers in the uptown loop where can one buy some clothes, shoes, cosmetics, etc?  They are just very limited options currently.  What happened to all the retail next to Whole Foods all the spaces are still empty?  I do think landlords are holding out for some high rents thus we get to look at For Lease signs.  A Sephora or Ulta Beauty would kill it up uptown and so would a shoe store.  In this age of ordering online and picking up in stores so sort of mini Belks would work I do believe. 
Yes in the grocery store front we are way ahead with our Whole Foods and mini Teeter and hopefully a Publix soon.  Downtown Nashville just had a Publix opened and one is on the way to downtown Raleigh.  Downtown Atlanta has no grocery stores neither does Houston but Midtown Atlanta does which is like an adjacent downtown.  I sure hope Tryon Place delivers some retailers.  
Crescent sold their retail spaces to Asana which includes 25K sq ft in Ally Tryon Place and 22K more in Stonewall Station.  Asana: Please deliver some non food retail in the mix! 
https://www.allycharlottecenter.com/Retail-Release.pdf

“Downtown Raleigh” that Publix is way further away than any of charlottes current or future grocery options. Most of those stonewall station spaces are spoken for but don’t be excited about them. They aren’t being picky about retail tenants that’s for sure.


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[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

I used to be a little more impressed by urban outfitters or H&M in center city but now I’d have to say “liveliness” or “pulse” is a quality I enjoy more. Uptown has a certain pulse and energy that I like these days. 

 

And Center city has plenty of retail & shopping, technically. SouthEnd & Metropolitan are center city. Give me a Target any day over an H&M.  Downtown rents are expensive. In every city. 

 

Does downtown Houston, Dallas or Atlanta have an H&M or Urban Outfitters? Downtown Atlanta doesn’t even have a grocery store. I wouldn’t be surprised if Houston nor Dallas has a grocery store. Also not sure those 3 larger cities really have much of any retail in their downtowns. I don’t know, maybe you guys do. 

Do any of the larger/midsized cities in the south have downtown retail? Miami. Maybe Nashville. Perhaps Austin. New Orleans? 

Orlando, Charlotte, Raleigh, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas all seem like resounding no’s. I’d go as far to say Charlotte’s uptown residents have it fairly good with amenities and ease to everyday goods. 

 

 

 

 

 

Those cities almost all suck. Try Denver or west coast or north east.  The fact the South is an urban wasteland is interesting to ponder. Reconstruction? The auto was prevalent when AC became affordable leading to bad planning decisions? Dunno... It is what it is though and few cities appear to be trying to improve.

1 hour ago, kermit said:

That is a good question, and honestly outside of touristy places like Charleston Asheville and Greenville I really can't think of any noteworthy retail districts in larger (non-college town) Southern cities. Downtown New Orleans is much like a less busy Charlotte once you wall off Bourbon / Canal and the casino (there is a little good retail along Magazine -- think Central ave and Thomas st). 

Its been a while since I have walked around there but I think Richmond has a little retail in downtown.

The thing that Charlotte is particularly bad at is we lack isolated retail outposts in uptown (since there really aren't any cheap buildings for things). In Birmingham, Atlanta and Nashville there are scattered large and interesting stores (e.g. outdoor stores, hobby shops, etc.) but they are always off on their own in an old (and kinda falling down) building. 

They have some but it's pretty spread out. Nightlife is pretty good in some areas though.

[15895]

I guess my point is I personally feel CLT is a Little underrated these days for urban living. I loved being a resident with Harris Teeter but also Metropolitan, SouthEnd. The amenities that people who came here in 2003 and are experts on all things Charlotte just don’t know as visitors.

 

I moved to DC back in June but my last year I had just as much fun as ever in uptown as ever. I’d take my dog to Frazier dog Park all the time (I’ve yet to find a dog park anywhere near as busy in DC as Frazier dog park), my nephews to all the parades and Rays Splash Planet. Also the greenway that starts at the panthers stadium and wraps all the way to Elmwood Cemetary was great.  Take the trolley to CPCC and bikeshare the Sugar Creek greenway. I loved the aquatic center. 1st was park turned out to be lovely with the water feature. I just finished college and had 3 free months until my job in DC started. I’d stay out on weekdays in Romare past midnight, it would still be popping, bike to East/West and play on the giant teeter totter until the last train around 1:30 would come. 

4th of July fireworks were the best and by far the longest of any display I’ve seen. I was at the national mall for the fireworks and it was so short and not nearly as great as the times I’ve had the years at Romare — usually in the park, once off a friends balcony nearby. There’s always events. I went to go see the Charlotte summer pops or whatever in uptown. I didn’t realize it was taste of Charlotte AND there was also an entire street festival at the levin museum parking lot. Going out to the arcade at the parking deck near 7th street was always so fun. 

 

while I’m reminiscing, when uptown and SouthEnd and NoDa weren’t enough, it was always nice to go out on warm summer days to Ballantyne or go to Lake Norman. Carowinds or USNWC. The LKN towns in Meck were so pristine and the towns are very walkable, greenways and I don’t know if you guys go to Jetton park much. 

 

Charlotte is a really, really great and - I honestly think - urban American city. If you can’t be happy in Charlotte, I’m not really sure how you’ll be happy anywhere. I mean. My life in DC isn’t that much different except we do not have pretty suburbs here. It’s more dense but my daily habits haven’t changed at all. I had a car but chose to live car-less in CLT. Used light rail and the busses. If it was the weekend and I wanted some Lake Norman in my life, I’d take the #7 to North Lake and transfer to #99.

 

So while uptown may not have much clothing retail, I don’t think many American cities do. I would still want some. But I think as far as American cities go, CLT is a great city in general if you like urban living. And I’m nearly absolutely positive Denver would probably disappoint me because it’s been so hyped up.  

 

Between Target, the grocers, parks, Meck Aquatic Center, Frazier dog park, greenways and mass transit. I was completely satisfied. (FYI, I do love DC a lot in case it sounds like I’m complaining or being negative. But I love cities, I love urbanity and I can have as much fun in CLT as DC as MIA as nearly any other American city xD though I’d prefer it to be in a state on the east or west coast)

Edited December 3, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[elrodvt]

Sorry but that's boosterism. Comparing DC to Charlotte is not even close when it comes to urban.

That said if what's important to YOU draws you back to Charlotte that's great!

[TheOneRJ]

Retail in Savannah and Charleston work because their respective downtowns are tourist attractions. 

Uptown Charlotte isn’t a tourist attraction. If a visitor to Charlotte had the option of paying to park Uptown to visit a H&M store vs going to SouthPark for free, they’re going to go to SouthPark. There needs to be something significant to draw people to Uptown in order for a real retail development to happen, otherwise stores would be a ghost town outside of game days and large events. 

[elrodvt]

I get your point but there are many cities without tourist attractions that work.

[15895]

17 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Sorry but that's boosterism. Comparing DC to Charlotte is not even close when it comes to urban.

That said if what's important to YOU draws you back to Charlotte that's great!

I said my daily habits are the same.... that’s not boosterism. 

 

I walk my dog... I walk to grocery stores. I take mass transit to Target. I bike on greenways. I watch Netflix and Hulu. I invite friends over and we will play N64 or something. My daily routine hasn’t changed much. I just have new places to explore and it’s bigger. I’m not exactly sure what you think big boy city people do that’s that different than people in smaller cities do? But I also have the sense to know “oh, well this city is a metro of 2 million people. I guess I shouldn’t expect it to be like a metro of 6 million in a different region” . I have the sense to know Charlotte isn’t NYC. But I have the personality where I will sure as sh1t go to a classic arcade place, drink, play skeeball, bar hop and have some fun whether it’s a smaller city or larger city. 

 

If you move to DC and you plan on going on White House tours every night, that’s on you. That’s not what I do on a daily routine. 

 

People in big boy cities do the same things as people in the Denver’s and Charlotte’s of the world. 

 

I like urbanity and big cities give me boners too.  I love DC which is why I CHOSE to relocate there and I chose to live in the actual city. I chose a job with less pay to be in DC... zero regrets. It’s not about boosterism. It’s about if you’re miserable in one city, maybe you’re just a miserable person. I’ve read plenty of miserable people on urban development boards who have lived in so many different cities and they are so grumpy and sound like such boring people. They go around lecturing everyone what a “real city” is as if none of us have our own experiences.  

 

There are plenty Charlotteans on here who have relocated to larger more urban cities. Our life mission isn’t to be a “booster” on a message board compromised of mostly other Charlotteans. I’m not one of those people who go around talking about what tier a city is in, how world class a place is, etc etc. Nope, I am just here because I like ‘scrapers, booze, Charlotte and Kristen Kreme.

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[elrodvt]

Fair enough. I shouldn't have said boosterism and I've always respected your posts. I didn't mean to come off as condescending either. My apologies.

It's largely personal choice but for what I like I'm hard pressed to think of many things I can't do in DC that I could in Charlotte. The reverse is pretty easy. Maybe I overestimate how many museums, plays, MLB etc I would attend though!

Man taking less money to work in DC is hard core. We looked there and decided for the kinda place we want to live in it was not affordable.