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Drive for 'Center City' retail


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1 minute ago, kermit said:

and after you factor in Dollar General openings you are in heavy negative territory...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/business/dollar-general-stores-stock-earnings/index.html

 

They still employ thousands of people. What do people have against Dollar General? My friend works for them and he loves it! People must want hoity toity stores :rolleyes:

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13 minutes ago, mpretori said:

They still employ thousands of people. What do people have against Dollar General? My friend works for them and he loves it! People must want hoity toity stores :rolleyes:

I don't have anything against DG -- I just think it is unlikely we will see one uptown. While the aggregate store numbers suggest retail is growing, it looks like nearly all of that growth is happening in roadside and/or low-income areas. 

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3 minutes ago, kermit said:

I don't have anything against DG -- I just think it is unlikely we will see one uptown. While the aggregate store numbers suggest retail is growing, it looks like nearly all of that growth is happening in roadside and/or low-income areas. 

the optics from the news article in December would suggest DG are expanding, but this article in mention is about 2020 SO FAR. Stores and construction is booming here in Seattle and it's not just hoity toity stores that only a few can afford. 

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7 minutes ago, kermit said:

I don't have anything against DG -- I just think it is unlikely we will see one uptown. While the aggregate store numbers suggest retail is growing, it looks like nearly all of that growth is happening in roadside and/or low-income areas. 

They have an express store in downtown Raleigh. It has always been very busy when I was in there. It mostly just sold snack food, medication, toiletries, and some microwaveable dinners. I think one of these in third ward near the park would do well.

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Most of those closings are in suburbs who see the convenience of ecommerce.  Urban areas are still faring better. I don't see Brickell closing any stores...
 
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Brickell has something like 35k people per sq mile living there, and gets 15M visitors per year.


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24 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:


Brickell has something like 35k people per sq mile living there, and gets 15M visitors per year.


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CLT can do something in a scaled down version. Give people a reason to want to live in uptown other than to be closer to work. I know if I was paying a premium for my apartment or condo, I would want something like this. 

 

VERY good article 

https://thenewtropic.com/2016-real-estate-swire/

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5 minutes ago, southslider said:

Tourists and international visitors, or people commonly found in Miami, but much rarer in Charlotte.

I frequent Miami and go shopping at Brickell when it's too hot to go to the beach.  Can't say the same about Uptown. It's just offices and epicenter which everyone wants to get rid of now. 

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1 hour ago, mpretori said:

CLT can do something in a scaled down version. Give people a reason to want to live in uptown other than to be closer to work. I know if I was paying a premium for my apartment or condo, I would want something like this. 

 

VERY good article 

https://thenewtropic.com/2016-real-estate-swire/

I dunno about brickell, but City Center in DC seems like a scaled down version and it sucks big time. Its so empty and sterile and lifeless (but pretty to look at).

High end retail areas aren’t too fabulous for street activity. H&M, Macy’s, etc. are more activating 

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1 minute ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

High end retail areas aren’t too fabulous for street activity. H&M, Macy’s, etc. are more activating 

I been to the sights in DC and there was plenty of foot traffic.  Also those major outlets you listed are all along times square and I can tell you from experience, there was foot traffic. IKEA who ditched Cary, NC is also entering the urban market more where they will have a scaled down the store size. 

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50 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Do you expect constant black friday traffic? LOL 

 

The irony is that photo came from the number 4 of "14 THINGS TO SEE & DO IN DOWNTOWN DC"

https://washington.org/visit-dc/things-see-and-do-downtown-dc


whatever. I stated my opinion based on my experience. If you have different ones, state them and get over what my personal experience has been. I don’t care. That picture to me is not the vibrant DC that I know and like . And FYI, that was a glamour shot. I chose a picture that was representative whether the link, a tourist agency, says its the greatest thing ever or nor. I was showing what it looks like when I visit every time outside some bars. 

 

I think it’s sterile compared to its surroundings and other areas. I think the foot traffic is weak compared to surrounding and other retail/night life areas. In any event, it wouldn’t work in uptown even on a small scale. And if it did, it would contribute even more to the button down blah vibe people complain about. 
 

I don’t like this and this is what it’s like every time I go excluding special events. If you go when it’s packed, great! Glad it’s getting use sometime. 

city-center-lanterns_hres.jpg

01072016-citycenter-1.jpg

 

20190805-185522-largejpg.jpg

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22 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:


whatever. I stated my opinion based on my experience. If you have different ones, state them and get over what my personal experience has been. I don’t care. That picture to me is not the vibrant DC that I know and like . And FYI, that was a glamour shot. I chose a picture that was representative whether the link, a tourist agency, says its the greatest thing ever or nor. I was showing what it looks like when I visit every time outside some bars. 

 

I think it’s sterile compared to its surroundings and other areas. I think the foot traffic is weak compared to surrounding and other retail/night life areas. In any event, it wouldn’t work in uptown even on a small scale. And if it did, it would contribute even more to the button down blah vibe people complain about. 
 

I don’t like this and this is what it’s like every time I go excluding special events. If you go when it’s packed, great! Glad it’s getting use sometime. 

city-center-lanterns_hres.jpg

01072016-citycenter-1.jpg

 

20190805-185522-largejpg.jpg

Exactly, you're just making anecdotal statements.

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Ok can we stop the comparisons, and hopes for things like Brickell City Center and CityCenter DC. 

For one thing, those metros are at 2x the size of Charlotte. For another, they have a larger wealth base that attracts this type of retail...in multiple locations. Remember, Miami and DC have multiple nodes of luxury retail in their respective metros. Also, these metros attract high tourism numbers, which usually comes with a higher percentage of disposable income. 

Charlotte doesn't have that, yet, and I am not sure we will ever catch up to either of those cities. Now, would it be nice and aspirational for this type of retail to locate Uptown, creating this uber luxury idea of a city that we see in Miami, DC, or NYC, sure. But also, one look at these photos, and you can tell that they have been hypermanaged to the point of looking sterile. Everything is "just right" in each photo. There is nothing out of place, and honestly, it looks boring. Also, a lot of these pieces written positively about them are because the publications are almost being paid (maybe not monetarily) to say nice things about these places. Publicity is $$$ to developers, so the more positive a blog can rank your location, the more eyes and ears to its presence. That's not to say they aren't busy, bc I am sure they are, but also, do we really want to add more sterility to our already homogenized uptown? No. We want some color, some vibrancy. 

I'd say that Uptown should shoot for a couple of destination retailers like Apple, H&M, Urban Outfitters, Zara to get crowds there. Don't expect a mall downtown, and especially now that South End has become the retail destination. 

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22 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Ok can we stop the comparisons, and hopes for things like Brickell City Center and CityCenter DC. 

For one thing, those metros are at 2x the size of Charlotte. For another, they have a larger wealth base that attracts this type of retail...in multiple locations. Remember, Miami and DC have multiple nodes of luxury retail in their respective metros. Also, these metros attract high tourism numbers, which usually comes with a higher percentage of disposable income. 

Charlotte doesn't have that, yet, and I am not sure we will ever catch up to either of those cities. Now, would it be nice and aspirational for this type of retail to locate Uptown, creating this uber luxury idea of a city that we see in Miami, DC, or NYC, sure. But also, one look at these photos, and you can tell that they have been hypermanaged to the point of looking sterile. Everything is "just right" in each photo. There is nothing out of place, and honestly, it looks boring. Also, a lot of these pieces written positively about them are because the publications are almost being paid (maybe not monetarily) to say nice things about these places. Publicity is $$$ to developers, so the more positive a blog can rank your location, the more eyes and ears to its presence. That's not to say they aren't busy, bc I am sure they are, but also, do we really want to add more sterility to our already homogenized uptown? No. We want some color, some vibrancy. 

I'd say that Uptown should shoot for a couple of destination retailers like Apple, H&M, Urban Outfitters, Zara to get crowds there. Don't expect a mall downtown, and especially now that South End has become the retail destination. 

What do you expect? Trash thrown everywhere?

 

This is a defeatist attitude.

 

Brickell transformed Miami and Charlotte can do the same public - private partnership. But they are too busy giving Billionaire Tepper whatever he wants! Sad really!

 

A city with potential but lost in the weeds giving billionaires blank welfare checks. 

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2 hours ago, Rufus said:

Ok can we stop the comparisons, and hopes for things like Brickell City Center and CityCenter DC. 

For one thing, those metros are at 2x the size of Charlotte. For another, they have a larger wealth base that attracts this type of retail...in multiple locations. Remember, Miami and DC have multiple nodes of luxury retail in their respective metros. Also, these metros attract high tourism numbers, which usually comes with a higher percentage of disposable income. 

Charlotte doesn't have that, yet, and I am not sure we will ever catch up to either of those cities. Now, would it be nice and aspirational for this type of retail to locate Uptown, creating this uber luxury idea of a city that we see in Miami, DC, or NYC, sure. But also, one look at these photos, and you can tell that they have been hypermanaged to the point of looking sterile. Everything is "just right" in each photo. There is nothing out of place, and honestly, it looks boring. Also, a lot of these pieces written positively about them are because the publications are almost being paid (maybe not monetarily) to say nice things about these places. Publicity is $$$ to developers, so the more positive a blog can rank your location, the more eyes and ears to its presence. That's not to say they aren't busy, bc I am sure they are, but also, do we really want to add more sterility to our already homogenized uptown? No. We want some color, some vibrancy. 

I'd say that Uptown should shoot for a couple of destination retailers like Apple, H&M, Urban Outfitters, Zara to get crowds there. Don't expect a mall downtown, and especially now that South End has become the retail destination. 

 

The bolded sentence above is how it feels to me. (Luxury stores sprinkled in naturally aren't bad, but a built area specific for only these retailers does get sterile.

 

And I agree pretty much entirely with this post. Super Lux. isn't coming to uptown, period, in that scale. It makes no sense to even pretend to get a mass of those labels uptown. And honestly, even if it could, I personally don't think it would shake the common complaint that uptown can feel kinda sterile/button down/etc.

 

Apple, H&M, Zara, etc. IMO would draw plenty of foot traffic (assuming demand is there) and would contribute to a more humanizing of uptown to shake the sterile stigma.

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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1 hour ago, mpretori said:

What do you expect? Trash thrown everywhere?

 

This is a defeatist attitude.

While do we have to be so finite with our expectations? It's either pristine and luxurious, or trashy and dumpy, and that belies a lot of assumptions about what some of us might want vs others that does not bode well for debate. 

I'm not saying that we should want trash thrown everywhere, but our expectations need to be tempered. Having a dream for a downtown luxury district is fine, but for a downtown that is not even 20 years into its revival, is asking a lot. This type of development cannot come in one full swoop or it will reverberate with the larger region, and not all positive. We tried to think that Epicenter would do it, then the Bank of America/Ritz Carlton development, then Tryon Place, then Legacy Union, and so on. We cannot depend on large scale projects to cure our retail desires/needs, nor depend on the deep pockets of those to help. While they should be helping, in our current economic system, that is not valued as highly as personal wealth growth is. 

So, rather than being defeatist, it is pragmatic. It is based on the reality of urban planning, design, and economics. Dream and wish away for Brickell, but understand that that is shooting for the stars, and temper your expectation with the hope for something better but maybe not entirely what you want. 

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8 minutes ago, Rufus said:

While do we have to be so finite with our expectations? It's either pristine and luxurious, or trashy and dumpy, and that belies a lot of assumptions about what some of us might want vs others that does not bode well for debate. 

I'm not saying that we should want trash thrown everywhere, but our expectations need to be tempered. Having a dream for a downtown luxury district is fine, but for a downtown that is not even 20 years into its revival, is asking a lot. This type of development cannot come in one full swoop or it will reverberate with the larger region, and not all positive. We tried to think that Epicenter would do it, then the Bank of America/Ritz Carlton development, then Tryon Place, then Legacy Union, and so on. We cannot depend on large scale projects to cure our retail desires/needs, nor depend on the deep pockets of those to help. While they should be helping, in our current economic system, that is not valued as highly as personal wealth growth is. 

So, rather than being defeatist, it is pragmatic. It is based on the reality of urban planning, design, and economics. Dream and wish away for Brickell, but understand that that is shooting for the stars, and temper your expectation with the hope for something better but maybe not entirely what you want. 

 

I would add politics and lack of leadership to your reasons right up there with urban planning. The city needs to throw out some nice incentives and get out of the way.

I know i am a broken record but much smaller cities, such as Burlington Vt, have far more dynamic downtowns.

Admittedly this is from the outside looking in as I don't know what CLT has tried - just that it didn't work.

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Spreading more options like Micro retail units in walkable parts of Uptown have a greater chance  of creating foot traffic than  spending lots of incentives on big name retail. The cheaper the space, the more variety of shops you get. I bet you start to see some smart developers including some highly curated micro or 'smaller' retail in their projects as they start to see more and more of the big players falter. Without super long leases, and little to no tenant upfit, it  starts to work  in their favor.

Of course the best way to encourage retail at ground level is to kill Overstreet Mall.

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5 hours ago, Rufus said:

While do we have to be so finite with our expectations? It's either pristine and luxurious, or trashy and dumpy, and that belies a lot of assumptions about what some of us might want vs others that does not bode well for debate. 

I'm not saying that we should want trash thrown everywhere, but our expectations need to be tempered. Having a dream for a downtown luxury district is fine, but for a downtown that is not even 20 years into its revival, is asking a lot. This type of development cannot come in one full swoop or it will reverberate with the larger region, and not all positive. We tried to think that Epicenter would do it, then the Bank of America/Ritz Carlton development, then Tryon Place, then Legacy Union, and so on. We cannot depend on large scale projects to cure our retail desires/needs, nor depend on the deep pockets of those to help. While they should be helping, in our current economic system, that is not valued as highly as personal wealth growth is. 

So, rather than being defeatist, it is pragmatic. It is based on the reality of urban planning, design, and economics. Dream and wish away for Brickell, but understand that that is shooting for the stars, and temper your expectation with the hope for something better but maybe not entirely what you want. 

Brickell doesn't have all hoity toity stores.

 

I enjoy the fact that I have retail/stores walking distance and public amenities. 

 

The only public amenities being built CURRENTLY are benches. Really unfortunate. I would hate the fact that I have to get in my car and leave the city to go shopping LOL 

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