Drive for 'Center City' retail

[tozmervo]

You know, I never think about it but I get an awful lot of gifts at the Mint Museum store. And tomorrow I'm picking up a gift for a cousin at the Discovery Place. Along with the Bechtler, the museum shops make for some pretty nice retail. 

[15895]

^ I like the visitor center (or whatever it's called) for gifts. Thats usually where I get my gifts. That and metropolitan Target

[15895]

I read in the Observer that CCP projects by 2015 uptown Charlottes residency should hit nearly 17,000 from around 14,500 today. An increase of 2,000 residents in 2 years within 277.

That's a ton of people with that would fill stores regularly. I could imagine folks living in VUE, Trademark, Avenue, Courtside, Skye House, Childress Klein, Catalyst, Skye Condos, and all the smaller midrise condos would easily support retail in center city. Not counting employees, weekend warriors, convention guest, people for sports/concerts/festivals, people from SouthEnd, etc.

Hopefully there is a developer out there that see's demand for retail and can incorporate an epicenter mixed Birkdale Village in uptown.

300 South Tryon would be perfect...

Edited January 10, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[Missmylab4]

I think a Denver Pavilion knock off on 300 South Tryon would kill..... And too make the numbers work throw 300+\- apts on top.

[southslider]

^I thought Charlotte's version of Denver's Pavilion was called Epicentre.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

^I thought Charlotte's version of Denver's Pavilion was called Epicentre.

Denver Pavilion has ample retail, including Banana Republic,  Bath and Body Works, Express, Forever 21, Gap, GNC, H&M, Pacsun, Barnes and Noble, and Victoria's Secret.  The Epicentre is rather sparse with retail.

[mallguy]

So downtown Greenville, SC is getting a Brooks Brothers and an Anthropologie, and there are some other national chains already downtown (Staples and a lot of restaurants) and even a semi-department store, Mast.  Downtown there is closer to a large Simon mall, Haywood, than uptown is to Northlake.

 

I'd think that Founders Hall could lure the first two stores if BofA just snapped its fingers-what gives?

[tozmervo]

Founders Hall already has a Jos A Banks and a couple of other boutique stores. 

[Guest]

So downtown Greenville, SC is getting a Brooks Brothers and an Anthropologie, and there are some other national chains already downtown (Staples and a lot of restaurants) and even a semi-department store, Mast.  Downtown there is closer to a large Simon mall, Haywood, than uptown is to Northlake.

 

I'd think that Founders Hall could lure the first two stores if BofA just snapped its fingers-what gives?

don't remind me :-(

[ScottCLT]

So downtown Greenville, SC is getting a Brooks Brothers and an Anthropologie, and there are some other national chains already downtown (Staples and a lot of restaurants) and even a semi-department store, Mast.

Wow...that feels like a punch in the face for Charlotte. I wonder why downtown Greenville is so attractive to this type of retail? Are there any organizations in Greenville trying to attract retail that might have had any influence on this? Not that I am trying to bash Greenville...just wondering how/why it is happening there and not here in Charlotte.

[Urbanity]

^ Because Downtown Greenville doesn't compete with itself the way Downtown Charlotte does with South Park.

 

It's not that Greenville is a better downtown but that it's downtown is closer to its population center as much major shopping competition.

 

That said It is sad in a conventional wisdom sense that you can't walk a street in Charlotte Center city and find a retail clothing or goods store with the exception of grocery and drug stores

Edited March 7, 2013 by Urbanity

[teeg]

^Greenville does have a shopping mall.  Haywood something?  It can't be 10 minutes from downtown.

 

We've done several weekend trips to downtown Greenville these last couple of years.  It's a special place.  A very nice, compact downtown.  You can tell that they've worked hard on it for a long time.  Family friendly, very walkable, lots of restaurants, a little bit of shopping, a handful of hotels, Peace Center and BiLo Ctr.  It reminds a lot of uptown Charlotte, with a few noteworthy differences:  

1.  Minor league baseball.

2.  The city controls a ton of parking, and it's free, or nearly free, on weekends.  

3.  Swamp Rabbit Trail and Falls Park.  

4.  Mice on Main.

[DMann]

^ Because Downtown Greenville doesn't compete with itself the way Downtown Charlotte does with South Park.

 

It's not that Greenville is a better downtown but that it's downtown is closer to its population center as much major shopping competition.

 

That said It is sad in a conventional wisdom sense that you can't walk a street in Charlotte Center city and find a retail clothing or goods store with the exception of grocery and drug stores

I believe the Overstreet Mall has stifled retail growth for decades.  While there is some retail there, Charlottes streets have brokerages, doctors offices, and bank branches, all non impulse storefronts.  If the Overstreet were a professional services mall it would make more sense. 

 

Concerning Greenville, I wonder what the difference in the rent is?

[carolinagarnet]

Greenville's series of mayors have made downtown their primary focus to great success. I read in the US Airways Magazine profile on the city that Falls Park generated something like $50M in private investment. That may not seem like a lot to Charlotte, but we're talking about a mid-sized Southern city. The real success has been gearing development to be pedestrian-oriented and preserving some of their older buildings for character. They also built University Place, which brings a number of universities into the city, and Clemson moved their MBA program downtown.

 

Columbia has something similar in The Vista, which is now accelerating with a new Hyatt, redevelopment of space in a flour mill, and the recent announcement of an Urban Outfitter's. The city also has Main Street, which is a short walk away, and has been slowly building a core of retail with Mast General, the relocation of the Nickelodeon Theater (indies), and a few other shops and restaurants (notably a Brazilian steakhouse).

 

Charlotte does not have a problem with interest in building Uptown, so it should really hold these superblock developments to higher standards. Allowing for retail in the future is fine, but the effect is small retail/restaurant islands like the Latta Arcade and Overstreet Mall rather than continuous line of shops and restaurant you find in a typical stroll district. Granted, most cities have big retail developments like Epicenter (Century City in LA comes to mind), but they also have dedicated retail streets like 5th Avenue in New York and Michigan Avenue in Chicago. The problem with allowing buildings to build without a street presence is that these buildings may be around for decades before being redeveloped.

[kermit]

Concerning Greenville, I wonder what the difference in the rent is?

 

CBRE reports the following for retail space:

 

Charlotte Uptown Submarket: 982,261 sq ft, 16.8% vacancy, Avg direct lease rate: $29.23 per sq ft!

(for comparison the inner southeast submarket which includes Southpark is $20.77 per square ft) (data for 3q 11 -- the most recent version posted)

 

Greenville downtown: 2,272,665 sq ft, 5.6% vacancy, Avg direct lease rate: $14.13 (a 'top of market' rate of $20 is also mentioned) (data for Q4 2012)

 

Looks like pricing in downtown Charlotte may be based more on construction cost than market rates. What do we think would happen if CCCP subsidised 100,000 sq ft of space so it could be marketed at $14 per square foot?

Edited March 7, 2013 by kermit

[mallguy]

Are those Charlotte to Greenville figures both for retail space?  I'd be surprised that Greenville's downtown has over 2MM sf of retail space in it.

 

Greenville's downtown is actually at the edge of the "nice" part of town, like Uptown Charlotte is.  West of downtown in Greenville are some derelict neighborhoods.  They don't stop people from flocking downtown though. 

Edited March 8, 2013 by mallguy

[Guest]

Are those Charlotte to Greenville figures both for retail space?  I'd be surprised that Greenville's downtown has over 2MM sf of retail space in it.

 

Greenville's downtown is actually at the edge of the "nice" part of town, like Uptown Charlotte is.  West of downtown in Greenville are some derelict neighborhoods.  They don't stop people from flocking downtown though. 

 

 

Are those Charlotte to Greenville figures both for retail space?  I'd be surprised that Greenville's downtown has over 2MM sf of retail space in it.

 

Greenville's downtown is actually at the edge of the "nice" part of town, like Uptown Charlotte is.  West of downtown in Greenville are some derelict neighborhoods.  They don't stop people from flocking downtown though. 

I would think that 2MM sf figure is for total commercial space. Not to mention CCCP says Downtown Charlotte has 2,072,691 sq. feet of retail.

[kermit]

Are those Charlotte to Greenville figures both for retail space?  I'd be surprised that Greenville's downtown has over 2MM sf of retail space in it.

 

Its not my observation, I am merely sharing what CB Richard Ellis reports for -retail- space.

 

I did double check the numbers before posting this, CBRE reports 2,272,665 sq st in the Greenville Downtown submarket and 982,261 in the Charlotte uptown submarket. CBRE does have some issues with the consistency of its reports between markets, but many developers rely upon this data for feasibility studies.

 

I suspect that the CCCP definition includes space in Southend and Midtown, the CBRE submarket definition appears to be limited to inside 277.

[Guest]

Its not my observation, I am merely sharing what CB Richard Ellis reports for -retail- space.

 

I did double check the numbers before posting this, CBRE reports 2,272,665 sq st in the Greenville Downtown submarket and 982,261 in the Charlotte uptown submarket. CBRE does have some issues with the consistency of its reports between markets, but many developers rely upon this data for feasibility studies.

 

I suspect that the CCCP definition includes space in Southend and Midtown, the CBRE submarket definition appears to be limited to inside 277.

I understand CBRE and its reliability. But 2,272,665 is more commercial space than downtown greensboro has. I find it hard to believe DT Greenville has that much RETAIL.

[nowensone]

I wouldn't be surprised it if had more, Greensboro is only now starting to build low-rise residential which may eventually encourage commercial growth downtown, otherwise commercial growth is wholly "suburban".  Greenville has for many years now concentrated on central growth/revitalization.

[DMann]

I wouldn't be surprised it if had more, Greensboro is only now starting to build low-rise residential which may eventually encourage commercial growth downtown, otherwise commercial growth is wholly "suburban".  Greenville has for many years now concentrated on central growth/revitalization.

I believe that work in Fifth Street by Ivey's Townhomes has begun.

[NcSc74]

Seems like uptown needs a voice. The est. 17000 that live in uptown has to be the voice to lure the retailers there. That and and a community shift in thinking. Trying to get Carolinians to give their cars up is going to be a hard sell. Living in Europe has taught me to stop complaining about trying to find a parking space and to just walk...it's that easy, just walk. I agree that fixing zoning laws would start the ball rolling but the people and their dollars can speak a whole lot better.

[nowensone]

I think once the Knights-Bearden blocks are open and the projects around them complete it will have hit that critical pendulum point.

[southslider]

As for zoning laws, the City already requires less parking in UMUD, MUDD, TOD, and PED districts.  These zoning classifications cover Uptown and the first-ring districts, like Plaza-Central.  The surface lots in Uptown are technically non-conforming, or grandfathered until they redevelop.  But if thinking of zoning, the vast majority of the remaining city (outside the compact core and first-mile satellites) likely doesn't help the car culture by still falling mostly under conventional urban zoning.

 

It's been said that Charlotte does zoning for very urban development pretty well.  It's the gradient transects in-between the very urban (Uptown, South End, streetcar-suburb nodes) and very suburban (vast majority of City) that lack any good zoning tools.

[tozmervo]

A men's boutique has opened on 4th St near Tryon, "Abbeydale." http://instagram.com/p/ZX40prlK-U/