Renaissance Park Projects & Developments

[Spartan]

Well, the 2006 Master Plan had a mixed-use village in this area, but that was more of a "stuff that could possibly be here eventually" than a true "plan".  Plus that was before the Cultural Center or The George were built.  If you're talking about the Marriott owners (a group led by Andy Cajka and Jimmy Gibbs), they've only owned the hotel for about 3 years, and they've been focused on renovations.  I don't recall any plans from them for this area before now.

 

Alas, the project is only in the preliminary stages, and they are still looking for more partners.  So it will be a few months before more details are available.

Herald-Journal article

 

I can't find the discussion right now, but I remember this being talked about sometime in the past 2-3 years. A group was interested in developing the "mixed use village" and I was skeptical about it being done well. Since then, they (The City?) rebuilt Liberty Street and extended Silver Hill Street. I'm assuming that at this point all the developers need to do is build the buildings and rebuild Converse Street.

 

The project includes a small convention type space for larger groups than the Marriott can currently handle; from the grape vine.

I would hope for a residential component, weather it be additional rooms for the Hotel or apartments or the ability to supply corporate apartments that could be used either way, depending on demand.

The urban code would limit the height to 3 stories, which is one aspect of the urban code that I hate. I am glad to see the development and progress finally happening in this area.

 

I think 3 stories is the perfect scale for Spartanburg. It gives you enough density to expand the look and feel of Morgan Square and Main Street (in terms of scale and quality) without relying on 'big fish' projects. The Master Plan focuses the height closer to the center of downtown, which is a good thing. Further, if the market warrants it, a large building will be built, but I personally would rather have two medium sized buildings than one large one.

 

At this point in time, I would be very surprised if any developer can get their pro forma to work with anything large scale (large relative to Spartanburg). Its difficult to build high rises without tenants, and Spartanburg isn't quite at the draw for office jobs that Greenville and Columbia are. Based on limited supply and relatively high vacancy rates, I would be surprised to see much in the way of larger scale office projects in the current market. I think that changes over time, especially if the city can successfully lure CH2M or some other company into downtown. My opinion is that downtown can handle a lot more retai/restaurants, and that as time passes, the general draw of downtown will bring in more large scale development.

 

I'm not trying to squash dreams of larger scale projects, but the reality is that most of our transformative commercial buildings over the past 25 years or so have from from GDJ taking risks that many developers would not, and Jerry Richardson who already had a company to fill his tower. Y'all know that I'm very pro-Spartanburg, but I also want to be realistic in terms of what we can expect. I sincerely hope that the developers of this projects can blow us away with what they are planning.

[westsider28]

Spartanburgh, I'm afraid you're incorrect again about the maximum height allowed in this area.  The Urban Code classifies this area as DT-5 which allows up to 6-stories as a base, and up to 10 with DRB approval.

 

A convention space would be pretty disappointing, IMO.  How many events here need a space bigger than the Marriott or the Memorial Auditorium?  And if that's a need (which I doubt), wouldn't a full-fledged convention center be a better goal (there was an idea once to build one connected to the Auditorium). 

 

Anyway, I prefer a building with a more active use.  Event spaces are dead 90% of the time.  There's way too much institutional stuff in the Renaissance area already.  I have no inside info, but I maintain that apartments over retail is the best use for this space.  It would be perfect for students at The George.

 

Spartan, I agree that CH2M-Hill is basically our only hope for a new office development downtown, but I think the demand for apartments is still unmet here.  And obviously filling empty storefronts on Main is a big priority (see Main Street Challenge), which can certainly be accomplished.

Edited April 30, 2014 by westsider28

[westsider28]

I listened to a City podcast about this development, and now I'm even more excited about it.  Here's why: they mention that the $7M figure is a tax assessed value, and that money spent on construction should be quite a bit higher (potentially double, ~$14M).  That opens up some more possibilities for what could be built.  And to be clear, I'm not wedded to apartments or anything.  I just hope it will contain an active use (retail, restaurant, residential, additional hotel rooms, even office) in addition to convention space if that's actually part of the development.

 

I also liked hearing in the podcast that as soon as there was an article in the paper about this development, the City immediately received several calls from developers interested in doing something in Spartanburg.  Development momentum is definitely a real thing, and it certainly appears to be building as more projects are announced.  Hope it continues!

Edited May 10, 2014 by westsider28

[spartanburgh]

I listened to a City podcast about this development, and now I'm even more excited about it.  Here's why: they mention that the $7M figure is a tax assessed value, and that money spent on construction should be quite a bit higher (potentially double, ~$14M).  That opens up some more possibilities for what could be built.  And to be clear, I'm not wedded to apartments or anything.  I just hope it will contain an active use (retail, restaurant, residential, additional hotel rooms, even office) in addition to convention space if that's actually part of the development.

 

I also liked hearing in the podcast that as soon as there was an article in the paper about this development, the City immediately received several calls from developers interested in doing something in Spartanburg.  Development momentum is definitely a real thing, and it certainly appears to be building as more projects are announced.  Hope it continues!

The new building will be a Marriott. Likely a Spring Hill Suites but possibly a Courtyard. It will have additional meeting space to compliment the existing Marriott. To me this is great news.

[westsider28]

That's awesome! 

 

I know there are many other places that have 2 hotel brands (of the same family) next to each other.  It seems like many cities in the Carolinas are adding additional downtown hotels right now, and Spartanburg can certainly use more rooms as well.

 

Can't wait to see designs / site plans / renderings, and then for the project to get underway!

Edited May 17, 2014 by westsider28

[westsider28]

So I mentioned earlier in this thread about the City trying to get more use out of Barnet Park.  Well, they seem to be succeeding with that effort.  Bruce Hornsby will be coming to Barnet Park on Sept. 20 for "Live on the Green".  That's a pretty big-name act (for Spartanburg).  And it's good that the Memorial Auditorium is a back-up location, in case of inclement weather. (It's pretty much always available, but that's a different discussion.)

 

Other recent events at Barnet Park include Movies in the Park, Father's Day Philharmonic Concert, International Kite Festival as part of Spartanburg Soaring, WSSL100.5 Pickin' in the Park, and Red White and Boom (of course).  That's good stuff.  Hope this continues and we have even more events and concerts here next year.

Edited July 17, 2014 by westsider28

[Jael]

The city's Citizens Advisory Council had their July meeting and NNO planning session in one of the pavilions there last week. It was the first time I had ever set foot inside Barnet Park. It was really nice even though it was hot as blue blazes that evening!

[drexel]

As mentioned above a group called Live on the Green LLC is promoting it's inaugural concert at Barnet Park September 20 with Bruce Hornsby. Bringing more live music to Barnet Park on a regular basis is long overdue and is good news. But according to the Herald-Journal this is a solo piano performance . Can not imagine that his entire band would not play at a venue that can handle close to 5,000 people.  This type of act seems better for a more intimate venue. Maybe Green LLC will bring in acts in the future that draws college students, or even old guys like me who like to hear performers with a great band.            

Edited July 17, 2014 by drexel

[spartanburgh]

Preliminary work is being done at the proposed new hotel site behind the Marriott. I noticed the drilling machine

taking core samples to determine the soil conditions all last week. This is necessary to design the buildings

foundation and structure.

[hub-city]

Preliminary work is being done at the proposed new hotel site behind the Marriott. I noticed the drilling machine

taking core samples to determine the soil conditions all last week. This is necessary to design the buildings

foundation and structure.

They were also taking samples in the lower parking lot between The George and Montgomery building.  Any ideas why they would be working there also?

[westsider28]

A second, more in-depth feasibility study is being done for the potential multi-purpose venue (arena).  That article also has results of the initial study.  It would host 85-115 events per year; 117,650-180,250 attendees; $40-45 million to build; $1.14-1.73 million yearly revenue; yearly expenses would exceed revenue by $211,000-419,000 so it would need a $10 million endowment; 4,000-5,000 seats; 120,000-135,000 total sq ft; 2-level U-shaped seating bowl would allow for future expansion; 4-5 acres; 2,000 parking spaces.

 

I'm becoming less enthused by this possibility.  Though the square footage is quite large (good for conventions), it would be only seat slightly more than the Auditorium (bad for sports/concerts).  And it will be a money-loser even with what I consider to be an optimistic estimate of yearly events (one event every 3-4 days).  Also the 2,000 parking spaces scares me.  Where do you put them?  That will take up tons of land (ex. the St. John deck has 750 spaces).  

 

I'm afraid this would become a boondoggle / money pit.  What do you guys think?

 

Edit: It would be just a bit smaller than the Columbia Convention Center (145,000 sq ft), for comparison.

Edited September 19, 2014 by westsider28

[Sparkleman]

As I said before this is a big fat 0 of an idea and a massive waste of time and money.

 

I'd rather see green grass than a money loser.

[roads-scholar]

As I said before this is a big fat 0 of an idea and a massive waste of time and money.

 

I'd rather see green grass than a money loser.

I want the due diligence to run its course before slamming the door shut [again].  And let's be perfectly clear here: there is not a convention center in the country that is not endowed and / or taxpayer supported.  That is a fact we must accept whether we build it or not.

 

I'm willing to accept the results of the feasibility study even if it determines that a convention center / arena is a bad idea.  What I'm not willing to accept is people jumping to conclusions.

Edited September 22, 2014 by roads-scholar

[spartanburgh]

I think this is one of two very good ideas for downtown, the other being a ball park that is minior league quality. Neither will likely make money if you only look at the facility itself. However, will a new City Hall, County Courthouse, Cleveland Park upgrades, etc. make money? NO. Everything doesn't have to make money. Improving the quality of life for citizens, attracting other investments (hotels, restaraunts, etc.) can make the overall fact that you invested in a venue like this worth while. Spartanburg (nor any other City) will develop with all the potential we see in this forum if profitability is all that is considered.

[roads-scholar]

I think this is one of two very good ideas for downtown, the other being a ball park that is minior league quality. Neither will likely make money if you only look at the facility itself. However, will a new City Hall, County Courthouse, Cleveland Park upgrades, etc. make money? NO. Everything doesn't have to make money. Improving the quality of life for citizens, attracting other investments (hotels, restaraunts, etc.) can make the overall fact that you invested in a venue like this worth while. Spartanburg (nor any other City) will develop with all the potential we see in this forum if profitability is all that is considered.

Well said.  Too many times over the years Spartanburg's leaders and [some] of it's citizenry took a narrow view of investments to improve the quality of life and the overall appearance of our city.   Take the new library for example.  People grumbled about the cost but look at what this magnificient facility has done for downtown's aesthetics not to mention the overall quality of life in the city. 

 

I'm for exploring a downtown convention center with an open mind rather than immediately dismissing the idea as a sure money loser.  

Edited September 22, 2014 by roads-scholar

[westsider28]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for a convention center / arena to work out here.  And I have no problem with the studies, because they're doing exactly what we're discussing: determining whether or not this is feasible.  But I'm pretty risk-averse personally, which is why I worry about this project.  Which is not to say that it couldn't pay off.  It very well could and elevate our city to the next level, which I'd love to see.

 

I initially wrote a huge post with my concerns, but I decided to shorten it up.  Cliff Notes version: where does the money come from, do we have enough events (corporate, tourism, etc) to consistently fill it, and how can we possibly compete with Greenville?

 

Also, has anyone heard anything more about the proposed development (hotel?) behind the Marriott?  There's been 5 months of silence.

Edited September 22, 2014 by westsider28

[spartanburgh]

Five months of silence is way too long.....I wonder if any of the closed door executive sessions that City Council has gone into during the last month or so has anything to do with this? They were reported to economic development issues. I am way past ready for a

rendering and start date for this.

[gman430]

Five months of silence is way too long.....I wonder if any of the closed door executive sessions that City Council has gone into during the last month or so has anything to do with this? They were reported to economic development issues. I am way past ready for a

rendering and start date for this.

Yeah, I am starting to wonder whether this proposed project is even still alive.

[Spartan]

I am 100% behind studies.

 

I get the concept of the spillover effect - these 120k people would stay in Spartanburg, eat in our restaurants, shop in our businesses, etc. I'm interested to know what these 85-115 events will be. Small time college sports are not a huge draw, and all of our colleges have their own sports venues. As much as I don't like the idea of a downtown baseball stadium, I think that would have more potential than an arena. 

 

I also think convention centers are played out and oversold. It's pretty well proven that they have a relatively small impact on the local economy aside from filling hotel rooms. Most of them are completely self-contained, providing meals and entertainment for their patrons on site.

 

I also agree that 2k parking spaces is scary. Structured parking is the obvious solution, but do we really need another parking deck in downtown that remains mostly unused?

 

Further, if the City gets involved in any way, and it's not successful, then it really comes back to bite the local government from a political standpoint. If private investors think it will work and want to dump money into it, then more power to them. I just hate the idea of this 'big fish' idea becoming a black eye for Spartanburg.

 

To compete with Greenville, Spartanburg has to continue to invest in quality of life for its residents. When you make your city so attractive for locals that they voluntarily brag about it, then the business and growth will come.

[westsider28]

There was another article on the downtown hotel market today.  Kind of your typical weekend fluff piece without too much new info, but Gibbs and Cajka seem to suggest that they're still considering a hotel behind the Marriott.  And an office building continues to be mentioned, which I REALLY think they should move ahead with (before a hotel).  The City could even give them incentives for that, if necessary.

[westsider28]

So I was looking at Monday's City Council agenda (PDF), and there is a ton of great stuff in there.  But this particular item is about a project to be built by Gibbs & Cajka behind the George.  It would be a Class-A office building no less than 3 stories and 50,000 sq ft capable of accommodating 250 professionals.  A minimum of 2/3s of the space would be leased to corporate tenants new to the City.  The City would provide the land for free, provide Gibbs development rights on the neighboring property, and relocate a portion of Silver Hill (so there would be a 4-way intersection w/Liberty; the way it should've been originally, IMO).  See the map below (office site is A, other prop is B).  Exciting!

[spartanburgh]

This is really exciting!! I was worried that Gibbs/Cajka were not going to do anything after the City sided with Johnson Development on the AC Marriott.

Getting a large white collar employer into a new office building is huge. Great things are beginning to happen on a larger scale in Spartanburg!

[mainonmain]

Yeah, have to give kudos to the City team for keeping Gibbs engaged in downtown development after the hotel deal. This is great to see in and of itself, and for what it might mean going forward. Gibbs obviously is heavily invested in that part of downtown, and keeping him at the table with his resources is very important.

[Spartan]

This is great news, though its slightly aggravating that we have to give away land to get office development downtown. Hopefully this becomes one of those momentum building projects.

[westsider28]

There's still too much vacant land for the City to be able to profit from land sales, but the City will get significant property taxes from a new building here (I believe I heard ~$120,000/year from the City Council meeting).  Honestly, I hope they build more than the minimum (height & sq ft).  For reference, the Advance America building is 50,000 sq ft (according to GIS) but it's 4 stories.

Anyway, this video mentions that 2 tenants are already lined up!  I thought this might be a "spec" building, but I guess not (at least not entirely).  This article mentions that Gibbs and Cajka have 90 days to submit project materials to the DRB for consideration, so we should see what the building looks like relatively soon!

Edited February 23, 2016 by westsider28