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Grand Rapids for Google Fiber Meeting

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Let's keep spreading the word about Grand Rapids for Google Fiber. If you have an idea on how we can impress our city's greatness upon Google, come and share it.

This will be a pretty informal meeting.

Tuesday, March 2, 2010Time:6:00pm - 9:00pmLocation:Urban Mills CoffeeStreet:629 Michigan St NE City/Town:Grand Rapids, MI

Facebook group meeting source:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/event.php?eid=321503274079&ref=nf

~John

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New? Website:

http://www.goog616.com/Default.aspx

4415916584_6313113f42_b.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johne777/4415916584/sizes/o/

From Facebook:

"This week we will be posting live video, community images and a community blog so your voice can be heard. Be sure to check it out, bookmark it and participate often. GRAND RAPIDS can only do this with community. SO proud of everyone's involvement. Your ideas here will be heard!"

~John

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I just did my part with the Google/GR Nomination piece. Here's the text from my submission:

"As one of the most rapidly growing cities and regions of Midwest America with one of the most diverse economies (including the new industries of bio-technology, motion picture/film production, alternative energy, urban music and automotive electric battery production), Metropolitan Grand Rapids is well-positioned to offer a suitably impressive showcase for the new Google fiberoptic technology. With additional regional assets such as a metro population of 1.2 million people, an emerging world-class downtown area, high-profile educational institutions (Grand Valley State University, Michigan State University Medical School, Cooley Law School, Kendall College of Art & Design), an expanded airport with multiple low-cost carriers (Gerald R. Ford International Airport), a world-class bio-technology district (i.e. - Medical Mile w/ Spectrum Health, VanAndel Research Institute, Lemmen-Holton Cancer Pavilion, Helen DeVos Children's Hospital, GVSU Health Sciences Center), 52 miles of Lake Michigan beachfront (30 minutes west of downtown Grand Rapids) and a geographic placement midway between Chicago and Detroit (two-hour drive west and east respectively), Metro Grand Rapids is sure to produce many benefits for Google as its testbed region."

I hope it helps turn their heads our way. GO METRO GR! :camera:

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This whole "effort" to attract Google to cities (not just GR) seems cheesy and almost exclusively groupthink. ...

I'm disheartened by the herd mentality that has recently taken over the internet infrastructure discussion more so in everyday conversation than on here. ...

The idea of the "flashmob" event is confusing to me. Exactly what is it going to accomplish? Is Google invited? So they get several hundred (or thousand) folks DT dressed in one of Google's colors...what's the return on investment for the corporate benefactor?

While I am still in the "fan" group on FB, I had to hide their updates (something like ten per day, and reiterated by the usual suspects). Things got aggravating when a community advocate asked a legitimate question, and was pounced on by respondents who implied that the project will cure the case of cancer that he'll eventually contract. (No kidding. Google cures cancer -- I read it on teh interwebs!)

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Karen,

The whole idea with getting as many people on the fan page and the event is to show Google that the people of Grand Rapids want and will support the super fast fiber connection that they want to test. The large number of supportors shows Google that they can make a profit in this area above the cost of intalling the fiber network here.

~John

The idea of the "flashmob" event is confusing to me. Exactly what is it going to accomplish? Is Google invited? So they get several hundred (or thousand) folks DT dressed in one of Google's colors...what's the return on investment for the corporate benefactor?

While I am still in the "fan" group on FB, I had to hide their updates (something like ten per day, and reiterated by the usual suspects). Things got aggravating when a community advocate asked a legitimate question, and was pounced on by respondents who implied that the project will cure the case of cancer that he'll eventually contract. (No kidding. Google cures cancer -- I read it on teh interwebs!)

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Difference is, Tier 1 internet providers don't give a crap whether you like their service or not. 20,000 (it is up to 28,000 now) people asking AT&T for better connection speeds is not going to even sway a lower-middle manager to do something. On the other hand, Google *wants* to do this, and we need to throw our hat in the ring.

It would be significant for GR, and it would make Tier 1 Internet providers take notice, especially if we all leave.

We don't need to be one of the 227,719,000 that don't get Google Fiber. We just need to be one of the 500,000 that DO get it. ;)

Joe

"Make a profit"? Google hasn't even dropped a ballpark number on what they think "affordable" fiber optic is and we're already discussing profits? How many of those Facebook fans are going to stick around if Google's "affordable" turns out to be $200 bucks a month?

I've been online since 1994 and craved every increase in speed since but the support of 20,000 people could better be suited to encouraging other companies to increase their speeds. Lets not forget that 80% of US internet traffic passes along a AT&T owned network at some point in it's journey. That is a gigantic amount of information from others ISPs that relies on AT&T's network being robust enough to handle that demand. Even Google's cancer cure will require AT&T's backbone to transfer Google Fiber user's data. Tier 1 providers should be the main target of calls for bandwidth increases; not some stretched-too-thin megalith that is offering .0021%* of current internet users a boost in speed.

*Based on Google's offer to 500,000 and a US internet user population of 227,719,000.

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Exactly my point.

Leave? I don't think you quite understand what Tier 1 networks are. They're the backbones of the internet. Your internet connection is going to use them no matter how much you hate those companies. Doesn't matter if you're using Comcast, AT&T, Google Fiber, Verizon, or anything other ISP; your data packets have a high probability of traveling on Tier 1 networks. They are, quite simply, THE internet.

Here is a tracert I ran to steampowered.com to illustrate my point:

http://i39.tinypic.com/jac66e.jpg

- First hop is my router

- Second hop is my ISP's first switch

- Third through fourth hop, I'm still sitting on my ISP's network

- Fifth hop, I'm on AT&T's network - a fat pipe located in Kansas

- Sixth hop I hit Qwest's border network (probably just east of the rockies and a clear bottleneck which says to me that east coast data packets are put in a queue as they line up to cross the rockies..cause, well, its difficult terrain to build fiber lines through so there are not alot hence the need to prioritize traffic on the limited amounts of lines there are)

- Seventh hop I hit a Qwest core line (probably over the rockies)

- Eighth hop I scream out of Qwest's network at near the same time I came in at (103ms to 119ms..only 16ms spent inside Qwest's network but the backlog at the rockies slowed me down)

- Ninth hop I finally hit my destination somewhere near Bellevue, Washington.

Two Tier 1 networks in just one packet's simple journey to a webpage. And you can see once I hit Qwest's network, my latency (measured in milliseconds) jumps from a 66ms average to 103ms in just ONE hop. This perfectly demonstrates that other companies can and do play a role in another company's service. Google Fiber is NOT going to change this very fundamental way the internet was designed to work.

A much bigger (makes Google Fiber look like a joke) and more important step in the right direction of increasing internet speeds is the current FCC broadband plan being discussed. But it seems everyone else would rather salivate at the teet of Google than care about something REALLY big.

If the Federal Government pushes the FCC broadband plan through, won't it take communications companies (ie Google) to put it into place? That article even mentions that the FCC is praising Google Fiber.

As I understand it, Google doesn't plan to just lay some fiber in the ground, recruit some customers, and call it a day; they plan to use the network to do R&D on potential new technologies/applications. You've gotta start somewhere. Google's going to do it somewhere, why not here?

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I haven't seen the full plan yet but investing in wannabe ISPs (i.e. Google) would be a bad investment. Let them use their own money to crank out projects. Knowing the FCC and previous government investments in internet infrastructure (the 1990s), I'm going to assume most of that money will be spent on upgrading and expanding Tier 1 networks. Those will be the companies that will be putting "it" in place. Heck, we might even get a new transoceanic fiber line to Australia.

I'm not against Google coming here. The more ISPs the merrier in my opinion. But being a ISP alone does not mean they're a vital component to the internet itself. They're just a gateway. Some gateways are smaller than others. Having a larger gateway doesn't mean much if all you're hitting, once online, is a bunch of Pentium IIs sitting on 1950s copper lines. The real internet is the fat pipes that are owned by Tier 1 companies. Thats what everyone (including Google) is/will be selling access to.

I'm with Temp.name here.. I'm very convinced there is a huge lack of understanding in what "Google Fiber" means for Grand Rapids. I know a lot of the "cheerleaders" from the Google for Grand Rapids group and from my conversations with them, they are very far off from what it will really provide. It's not going to enable you to download movies from Netflix/iTunes/YouTube in seconds.. as Temporary.Name points out, that trip is going to be severely impacted by the other providers it hits along the way. I'm not blaming them, and I'm happy for their excitement, I just hope the "masses" understand what it really means.

What Google Fiber will do is allow companies to start playing with backend technology/media/content/"cloud applications" (whatever you want to define "cloud" as), but all that will have to happen "in market" to really see what's possible, as anything outside GR would run into all the things mentioned before. When I posted this thread it wasn't meant to be a "hey look how fast youtube/twitter/facebook" will be.. It was more as a I wonder who else this could bring to GR if anyone, or is Google going to go someplace that existing technology companies already exist who can offer all the previously mentioned things across this network without too much cost to them. When I'm talking "other technology" I mean stuff like Cisco's CRS-3 routing system. What if Cisco opened up an R&D facility here to "run" the google network. Or what if Amazon/Netflix/Whoever opened up a small datacenter here to test new delivery methods.

Flashmobs and balloons might be cute and catchy, and get WoodTV all excited, but that's not what's going to cause Google to come to GR. People being excited is one thing, but lets not forget Google is a profit making business that will go where it feels it can generate the most revenue.

I'm very interested to see what the FCC has planned for it's $7+ billion in stimulus money.

EDIT: Sorry if these seemed to talk down or hate on the excited people.. it wasn't meant that way. It's just I have a degree in the world of computer nerdery, and have worked in the business world for a while now and want people to understand what it really means.

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I'm with Temp.name here.. I'm very convinced there is a huge lack of understanding in what "Google Fiber" means for Grand Rapids. I know a lot of the "cheerleaders" from the Google for Grand Rapids group and from my conversations with them, they are very far off from what it will really provide. It's not going to enable you to download movies from Netflix/iTunes/YouTube in seconds.. as Temporary.Name points out, that trip is going to be severely impacted by the other providers it hits along the way. I'm not blaming them, and I'm happy for their excitement, I just hope the "masses" understand what it really means.

What Google Fiber will do is allow companies to start playing with backend technology/media/content/"cloud applications" (whatever you want to define "cloud" as), but all that will have to happen "in market" to really see what's possible, as anything outside GR would run into all the things mentioned before. When I posted this thread it wasn't meant to be a "hey look how fast youtube/twitter/facebook" will be.. It was more as a I wonder who else this could bring to GR if anyone, or is Google going to go someplace that existing technology companies already exist who can offer all the previously mentioned things across this network without too much cost to them. When I'm talking "other technology" I mean stuff like Cisco's CRS-3 routing system. What if Cisco opened up an R&D facility here to "run" the google network. Or what if Amazon/Netflix/Whoever opened up a small datacenter here to test new delivery methods.

Flashmobs and balloons might be cute and catchy, and get WoodTV all excited, but that's not what's going to cause Google to come to GR. People being excited is one thing, but lets not forget Google is a profit making business that will go where it feels it can generate the most revenue.

I'm very interested to see what the FCC has planned for it's $7+ billion in stimulus money.

EDIT: Sorry if these seemed to talk down or hate on the excited people.. it wasn't meant that way. It's just I have a degree in the world of computer nerdery, and have worked in the business world for a while now and want people to understand what it really means.

That's my point that I think temp.name missed. I think the greater benefit is going to be what is developed by Google using the network, within the network here in GR, as well as what other technology partners might get involved. It may not directly benefit business and residential users in GR right away because of the restrictions on the entire global network.

Do a lot of people have a misunderstanding of what it will mean in the short term? Absolutely. Should that stop them from trying to get Google's attention? Absolutely not. Out of the 28,700 fans on facebook, Google would be mostly working with a handful of them.

Google is not stupid. They're not going to go into a city, lay down expensive fiber (that won't be much faster than regular broadband service to begin with) and hope to make any money as an ISP. If it's $200/month and it's not CONSIDERABLY faster, people will drop it instantly.

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That's my point that I think temp.name missed. I think the greater benefit is going to be what is developed by Google using the network, within the network here in GR, as well as what other technology partners might get involved. It may not directly benefit business and residential users in GR right away because of the restrictions on the entire global network.

Do a lot of people have a misunderstanding of what it will mean in the short term? Absolutely. Should that stop them from trying to get Google's attention? Absolutely not. Out of the 28,700 fans on facebook, Google would be mostly working with a handful of them.

Google is not stupid. They're not going to go into a city, lay down expensive fiber (that won't be much faster than regular broadband service to begin with) and hope to make any money as an ISP. If it's $200/month and it's not CONSIDERABLY faster, people will drop it instantly.

Right, but the message that these groups are spreading is full of misinformation, which is to be expected when they're being run by people not in the industry.

This is what I'm talking about (taken from the Google Fiber for Grand Rapids group):

<FB USER> Question - Is a fiber network available via wireless connection?

Was just wondering as I attempt to surf at the dining room table.... slooooow... :)

27519_324192728477_5061_q.jpgGoogle Fiber for Grand Rapids YES! and at the speed of light!

No.. you're still limited to the speed of your wireless router (currently 54Mbps).. and then you're passed on to everything Temporary.Name was talking about.

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All I know is 3 years ago I got 3 megabit (stinkin 460k up) dryline AT&T DSL for $45/month.

What do they offer today? The same thing, nothing faster or cheaper. How's that for progress?

Cable internet? Don't even get me started.

While I believe many (most) supporters are clueless as to what Google's presence would mean, I'm in favor of ANY competitive overtures if it helps get ISP's off their a**.

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All I know is 3 years ago I got 3 megabit (stinkin 460k up) dryline AT&T DSL for $45/month.

What do they offer today? The same thing, nothing faster or cheaper. How's that for progress?

Cable internet? Don't even get me started.

While I believe many (most) supporters are clueless as to what Google's presence would mean, I'm in favor of ANY competitive overtures if it helps get ISP's off their a**.

In AT&T's defense, their U-verse is much faster and reasonable speeds (still not Gig speeds but..).. although not available everywhere.

Tier Download speed (in Mbps) Upload speed (in Mbps) Price

Pro up to 3 up to 1 $38

Elite up to 6 up to 1 $43

Max up to 12 up to 1.5 $45

Max Plus up to 18 up to 1.5 $55

Max Turbo up to 24 up to 3 $65

I have the Elite and have regularly tested as advertised. (I think those prices are based on you having TV service as well).

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I don't need any bundling, just need faster & cheaper DSL service.

Well ya got me on the bundling as you can't split it. Technically U-Verse is DSL, VDSL (which is the same as Verizons FIOS system) to be exact, whereas I think their other offering is ADSL.

The bigger issue isn't that there aren't faster alternatives out there for cheaper/similar, it's that the deployment by the carriers isn't as widespread as it should be, which is what the FCC is trying to fix with the FCC National Broadband Plan

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I think people are getting too deep into the technical end of things (and yes, I do fully understand what temp.name, etc. are talking about). But the point remains, it most definitely could help grow new business as entrepreneurs test the capabilities of high speed connections well in advance of other cities. I also would *LOVE* to say that my bandwidth bottleneck is my router, but I doubt my lowly AT&T connection (that I pay a lot for) is even making my router break a sweat. Sure, we're not going to be downloading Netflix movies in 2.2 seconds, but there is no doubt that speed will increase significantly to some sites, especially if it's a few fast hops.

And I don't think anyone would complain about getting 54Mbps sitting at the dining room table. Especially if all it takes is a few extra minutes of your life to go out and show support.

Joe

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I think people are getting too deep into the technical end of things (and yes, I do fully understand what temp.name, etc. are talking about). But the point remains, it most definitely could help grow new business as entrepreneurs test the capabilities of high speed connections well in advance of other cities. I also would *LOVE* to say that my bandwidth bottleneck is my router, but I doubt my lowly AT&T connection (that I pay a lot for) is even making my router break a sweat. Sure, we're not going to be downloading Netflix movies in 2.2 seconds, but there is no doubt that speed will increase significantly to some sites, especially if it's a few fast hops.

And I don't think anyone would complain about getting 54Mbps sitting at the dining room table. Especially if all it takes is a few extra minutes of your life to go out and show support.

Joe

I agree with Joe.

I've been in IT for my entire career. I completely understand that the last-mile isn't the only bottleneck, but it's still a bottleneck.

All the tech talk in the world doesn't help non-techies get on board or help out, so I think we should stop disparaging their efforts to secure something fantastic for GR.

If we all want to sit around and act cynical when their NetFlix downloads still take minutes instead of seconds, that's fine later. I'll even join you!

In the meantime, I'm going to throw on a bright yellow shirt and go downtown on Friday hoping to convince a giant faceless corporation to bless our little town with some technology. :-)

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Temporary.name,

I disagree with you on many points including impact, speed, choice of services, and if it would make Grand Rapids more competitive than other similarly sized cities. I am, however, glad that it is your last post on the subject. ;)

Anything, of any size that can make Grand Rapids a better and more attractive place to live is good for everyone. No matter if it is Google Fiber or guerrilla gardening. If it adds vitality to the city, large or small, I'm all in. :)

Joe

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Temporary.name,

I disagree with you on many points including impact, speed, choice of services, and if it would make Grand Rapids more competitive than other similarly sized cities. I am, however, glad that it is your last post on the subject. ;)

Anything, of any size that can make Grand Rapids a better and more attractive place to live is good for everyone. No matter if it is Google Fiber or guerrilla gardening. If it adds vitality to the city, large or small, I'm all in. :)

Joe

I agree Joe, "add[ing] vitality to the city" and the prospect of being part of a large investment has been my main curiosity about this. But as a technical layman, I appreciate seeing temp.name's point of view.

Regarding the Facebook group, enthusiasm is always good, but we should also sober ourselves up to the fact that there will be limits and complications to whatever impact this has, just by virtue of the fact Google considers this an "experiment." If Facebook users are telling each other that this will actually make their wifi routers faster, that's a problem. Not only are we setting ourselves up for disappointment, but we're telling Google we don't understand what they're doing, which undermines our effort.

It goes back to Joe's "vitality" statement... I'm expecting tons of snags and problems trying to get this up and running, only for an unfinished prototype that probably won't give us anything that much better than what we have now... But we as a community get to work with Google through all those issues. To me, that's what's exciting.

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I am, however, glad that it is your last post on the subject. ;)

Way to show some Mod Maturity there Joe :rolleyes:

We're all engaging in what I find a fascinating debate/discussion about what in the end is something very technical and exciting for the city (I have yet to see someone say this is a stupid idea). Some people get excited about the speeds and feeds and some get excited about pretty balloons and town hall meetings. No need to bash on others.

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