MLS in Charlotte - 2021

[cjd5050]

Just now, ah59396 said:

You're not pointing out anything, you're making things up to fit your narrative.  But you're showing your true colors now and I've lost interest in what you have to say.

lol.  ok.

[ChessieCat]

43 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

You sure about that?

You realize we're taking about Charlotte right?  A city that has a NASCAR hall of fame and is famous for BBQ and Fried Chicken.  Not sure where you live but maybe you need to get out more to realize it.

I like tourism.  I like people.  All kinds.  I try not to discriminate as long as the money is there.  Sure Philly has a team and yes Philly fans are known to suck.  But NY, Toronto, D.C., Montreal, Boston, Chicago and Miami has teams as well.  Any issue with those fans?  

 

^I live a short walk from uptown so the good, bad, and ugly are a stone's throw away.  Can you walk to Panthers stadium or the arena in 10 minutes like I can?

I like tourism, but some is more quality than others. Sports tourists have a tendency to get lit up and start things with the locals. Every Panthers fan has seen it.

Musuem and Arts tourists, even the NASCAR HOF ones, don't have fighting in mind when they come to town.  I'll take those people and their $$$ any day.  I support the tax dollars used on the NASCAR HOF too.  While the visitor projections were vastly overestimated, the museum adds to the cultural fabric of the city.  Most importantly, it can't be packed up and moved to another city or held hostage by some billionaire owner unless NASCAR decides to abandon its roots one day.

Edited January 27, 2017 by ChessieCat

[Niner National]

3 hours ago, atlrvr said:

The Panther's franchise fee was $140mm.  The next new franchise in the NFL was the Houston Texans, and their franchise fee was $700mm, and the public kicked in $289mm of the $474mm of Reliant Stadium.

The real issue here is 2 fold:

1) MLS franchise fees have doubled since last expansion

2) MLS stadium expectations (quality/fit finish/etc) have > doubled since last new stadium

MLS is almost fully expanded.  There are teams 27-28.  That means likely only 1 more round of expansion to get to 30 teams.  Even if franchise fees increase to $200-$250mm, that's not a lot of money to be divided out among the 28 existing owners.  This is why public money is required to get a decent return.

IF Charlotte wants to try for teams 29-30, it gets MUCH MUCH worse. The expansion fees will be higher, and there aren't expected to be any future expansions to generate returns for those new owners.  Team ticket sales doesn't do better than breakeven on operating costs, and MLS is still a way off from meaningful TV rights deals.

I know it's easy to pick on a Billionaire, but asking someone worth ~$1B to spend 35% of their net-worth of something as risky as MLS, and at BEST get a total return of 5% in 5 years is not something that makes sense.  Even worse, in the next round, asking them to spend likely 50% of their net worth for 0% return, or actually negative return is even less likely, which means the public ask for teams 29-30 will be 2x (or more) higher.

If you guys want this without public subsidy, you're going to have to either convince someone much richer than anyone who currently lives in Charlotte to move here, or at least be a benevolent benefactor and buy a team in Charlotte

Raleigh has their rich guy, who has $9 billion....those $8B more than the Smith's makes a big difference in willingness to fund vanity projects.

James Goodnight is not the person behind the Raleigh bid. Can't remember the guy's name, but he's worth hundreds of millions, not billions.

Also, the Smiths don't have to fund this all themselves. They can do what Jerry Richardson did and put together a strong team of investors. The Smiths will probably let ego get in the way, however and grovel to taxpayers to help fund their toy rather than sharing it with others.

[SgtCampsalot]

7 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Musuem and Arts tourists, even the NASCAR HOF ones, don't have fighting in mind when they come to town.  I'll take those people and their $$$ any day.  I support the tax dollars used on the NASCAR HOF too.  While the visitor projections were vastly overestimated, the museum adds to the cultural fabric of the city.  Most importantly, it can't be packed up and moved to another city or held hostage by some billionaire owner unless NASCAR decides to abandon its roots one day.

Those are interesting angles I hadn't considered before.

Edited January 27, 2017 by SgtCampsalot

[SouthEndCLT811]

28 minutes ago, Niner National said:

James Goodnight is not the person behind the Raleigh bid. Can't remember the guy's name, but he's worth hundreds of millions, not billions.

Also, the Smiths don't have to fund this all themselves. They can do what Jerry Richardson did and put together a strong team of investors. The Smiths will probably let ego get in the way, however and grovel to taxpayers to help fund their toy rather than sharing it with others.

Steve Malik is the owner of NCFC who's trying for the Raleigh bid.  Quick Google search didn't pull up a net worth for arguments sake.  But yes, he has stated the stadium construction would be privately funded.  Similar to Orlando/Minnesota which are also privately funded it wouldn't be shocking if he was asking for tax easement or assistance with infrastructure near the stadium.  Minor requests compared to the amount the Smith's were looking for.

Edited January 27, 2017 by SouthEndCLT811

[deleted]

4 hours ago, atlrvr said:

I know it's easy to pick on a Billionaire, but asking someone worth ~$1B to spend 35% of their net-worth of something as risky as MLS, and at BEST get a total return of 5% in 5 years is not something that makes sense.  Even worse, in the next round, asking them to spend likely 50% of their net worth for 0% return, or actually negative return is even less likely, which means the public ask for teams 29-30 will be 2x (or more) higher.

The return on investment is largely the appreciation in the value of the franchise.  They are much more expensive now then they were before and you acknowledge the price is only going to increase.  Voila, ROI.  The Panthers and Hornets are worth far more today than when last purchased.  If MLS isn't as good an investment, then the city should avoid it.

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

I think Sacramento, San Diego, Phoenix, and San Antonio will get teams.

Sacramento, probably, but that's a lot of CA teams and SJ isn't far.  SD needs a stadium for SDSU so perhaps, but it'd be easier for me to win the Iditarod then for SD to build a stadium (ask the a-hole Chargers).  Phoenix?  Asked to bid but games in 105 degree weather doesn't sound ideal.  Texas already has two teams but maybe...

Only Sac is close to a sure thing.

[CLT2014]

8 minutes ago, JBS said:

The return on investment is largely the appreciation in the value of the franchise.  They are much more expensive now then they were before and you acknowledge the price is only going to increase.  Voila, ROI.  The Panthers and Hornets are worth far more today than when last purchased.  If MLS isn't as good an investment, then the city should avoid it.

Sacramento, probably, but that's a lot of CA teams and SJ isn't far.  SD needs a stadium for SDSU so perhaps, but it'd be easier for me to win the Iditarod then for SD to build a stadium (ask the a-hole Chargers).  Phoenix?  Asked to bid but games in 105 degree weather doesn't sound ideal.  Texas already has two teams but maybe...

Only Sac is close to a sure thing.

Agree, lot up in the air still. San Diego's investor group is proposing a deal that would not require public funds to acquire the land or to build the stadium, so 100% private financing. The issue with the Charger's is they wanted taxpayer funds so I don't see the city being an issue and they want a pro-team back in town other than the Padres. 

I assumed Phoenix would go dome like all their other stadiums, but if they don't, yeah I'd def count them out. Nobody wants to fry to death.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, Niner National said:

James Goodnight is not the person behind the Raleigh bid. Can't remember the guy's name, but he's worth hundreds of millions, not billions.

Also, the Smiths don't have to fund this all themselves. They can do what Jerry Richardson did and put together a strong team of investors. The Smiths will probably let ego get in the way, however and grovel to taxpayers to help fund their toy rather than sharing it with others.

Jim Goodman. He is the long time owner of WRAL tv and its associatd media assets as well as the Durham Bulls (which he bought from Miles Wolff well after he re-established the team in minor-league lore). He does have some pro-sports cred, but he is mostly riding on Wolff's coattails. He is a very sharp media guy.

Edited January 27, 2017 by kermit

[kermit]

3 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

What you're really saying, or at least what it appears, is that a tourist from Philly coming to Charlotte to watch a football match and drink beer is not good enough.  What Charlotte needs to get a different kind of tourist who comes here for the art and drinks wine.  

Tourism is tourism.  Just like elitists are elitists, sorry.....

Please stop trying to tell people that they didn't say what they actually said.

Edited January 27, 2017 by kermit

[cjd5050]

14 hours ago, kermit said:

Please stop trying to tell people that they didn't say what they actually said.

Sorry you're unable to read.   Then again, sometimes when like minds are talking it's difficult for them to understand how what they are talking is viewed by others.  At least you had the courage to admit to your elitism.  Others....not so much.  

Edited January 28, 2017 by cjd5050

[kermit]

23 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

Sorry you're unable to read.   Then again, sometimes when like minds are talking it's difficult for them to understand how what they are talking is viewed by others.  At least you had the courage to admit to your elitism.  Others....not so much.  

To recap:

I posted one sentence that politely asked you to stop rephrasing what you read here. You managed misinterpret my 14 words as:

1) I am illerate [a bit of a surprise]

2) That I am a member of a specific socio-economic group [not something thaat I mentioned, suggested or intoned]

and then, based on something you imagined I said,  you attacked the character of every other poster in this thread.

Is this a fair characterization of your reply? 

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by kermit

[cjd5050]

6 hours ago, kermit said:

To recap:

I posted one sentence that politely asked you to stop rephrasing what you read here. You managed misinterpret my 14 words as:

1) I am illerate [a bit of a surprise]

2) That I am a member of a specific socio-economic group [not something thaat I mentioned, suggested or intoned]

and then, based on something you imagined I said,  you attacked the character of every other poster in this thread.

Is this a fair characterization of your reply?

Once someone says something they no longer have the right to determine what those words mean to others.  That concept may not be realized in this circlejerk but that's reality.  

Here are ChessieCat comments that I took issue with.  I taken words about Philly fans and replaced them with CIAA.   If you were to post something like this you would be called a racist.  ChessieCat clearly thinks some people are better than others and has been specific in pointing out how and how he thinks this.  If you you don't see this as being and elitist then maybe you are illiterate.  

I work a short walk from uptown so the good, bad, and ugly are a stone's throw away.  Can you walk to the Spectrum Center in 10 minutes like I can?

I like tourism, but some is more quality than others. CIAA fans have a tendency to get lit up and start things with the locals.   Every local has seen it.  Believe me I've seen plenty of CIAA fans travel to Charlotte, get drunk, start fights and get arrested cause the whole trip is cheaper than going to Atlanta.  If that's the type of tourist you want, you answered your own question!!!

Musuem and Arts tourists, even the ACC fans, don't have fighting in mind when they come to town.  I'll take those people and their $$$ any day.  While the visitor projections were vastly overestimated, the museum adds to the cultural fabric of the city.  

 

As for you, you danced around your elitism months ago in another thread but eventually admitted to it and your complete disregard for groups of people.  If you don't recall that conversation...sorry.  See the problem with people like you is you insulate yourself in echo chambers where you act altruistic but have no problem with talking sh*t about anyone who would not be likely to find any interest in your echo chamber.  When confronted with your hypocrisy it is unfathomable and simply doesn't compute.  
 

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by cjd5050

[J-Rob]

Mecklenburg is saying a bid may still go through.  I totally get the hesitancy to subsidize people richer than 99% of the taxpayers, so maybe we can end up with some compromise where in total the Smiths pay more, but Charlotte still gets a team.

I wish the county wasn't paying so much, but I am glad that they are on board since they control the Elizabeth site.  It seems to me that an MLS stadium is the highest and best use for the Memorial land.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article129570719.html

Edited January 30, 2017 by J-Rob

[Merthecat]

So, just curious, in the event that MLS comes to Raleigh and not Charlotte, how would you Charlotteans feel?  Angry?  Pleased?  Indifferent?  I'd like to know.

[ChessieCat]

24 minutes ago, Merthecat said:

So, just curious, in the event that MLS comes to Raleigh and not Charlotte, how would you Charlotteans feel?  Angry?  Pleased?  Indifferent?  I'd like to know.

Indifferent.  I don't feel that Charlotte misses out by the Hurricanes being located in Raleigh, cause 20 years ago their owner Peter Karmanos was tired of his Whalers having to compete in a saturated NYC-area market.  The Canes have been the only major pro sports team there.  Now he is trying to sell the team but they are ranked last in the NHL in terms of value at $230MM.  That valuation won't be lost on the MLS when it's time to award franchises.  The fact that PNC Arena was built outside downtown Raleigh has been discussed numerous times in UP and may contribute to the low valuation.  Malik wants a downtown soccer stadium and if they want to use public money, it's their prerogative.

 

 

  

[Jack152]

29 minutes ago, Merthecat said:

So, just curious, in the event that MLS comes to Raleigh and not Charlotte, how would you Charlotteans feel?  Angry?  Pleased?  Indifferent?  I'd like to know.

I will feel disappointed, because it will slam the door on MLS here, and might cost us our USL team, as well.

As far as North Carolina FC goes, I will be as indifferent to them as I am the Hurricanes. Will probably stick to watching the Premier League on Saturday morning.

 

[SouthEndCLT811]

1 hour ago, Merthecat said:

So, just curious, in the event that MLS comes to Raleigh and not Charlotte, how would you Charlotteans feel?  Angry?  Pleased?  Indifferent?  I'd like to know.

For what it's worth at the supporters group event yesterday the owner of the Independence was there and said even prior to the Smith debacle from last week they were told MLS views Charlotte as the 8th market out of the 10 they've come out to say they're interested in.  San Diego, Detroit/St Louis, Sacramento and Nashville (surprise one) were the top cities in the minds of the MLS.

Other interesting news is if the Smith's don't submit their bid or are unsuccessful the Independence will try again for phase 1 renovations of Memorial to convert to a 10,000 seat stadium.

[J-Rob]

[deleted]

2 hours ago, Merthecat said:

So, just curious, in the event that MLS comes to Raleigh and not Charlotte, how would you Charlotteans feel?  Angry?  Pleased?  Indifferent?  I'd like to know.

I would be happy for Raleigh and the State.  They would be my favorite MLS team but I would follow only slightly more than I follow NHL team (not at all).  I don't think we would necessarily never get a team if Raleigh does but agree that it would be at least a decade and an uphill battle.  

[deleted]

2 hours ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

For what it's worth at the supporters group event yesterday the owner of the Independence was there and said even prior to the Smith debacle from last week they were told MLS views Charlotte as the 8th market out of the 10 they've come out to say they're interested in.  San Diego, Detroit/St Louis, Sacramento and Nashville (surprise one) were the top cities in the minds of the MLS.

Other interesting news is if the Smith's don't submit their bid or are unsuccessful the Independence will try again for phase 1 renovations of Memorial to convert to a 10,000 seat stadium.

SD makes sense if they can solve stadium issue (even if privately financed, nothing is easy there), Detroit makes sense based on city size, owner(s) financial capability, St Louis will not build a stadium so it's dead, Sacramento most likely of all cities based on support and stadium plan, Nashville fast growing but still considerably smaller than Charlotte.  Assuming capable owners and stadiums are in place in every market (false assumption) under consideration and existing fan support not a consideration (otherwise, an unrealistic and inaccurate scenario), I would view SD, Detroit, St Louis and Charlotte as the cities to beat, followed by Nashville, Raleigh, San Antonio, Sacramento and Cincinnati (Tampa's bid is serious but proximity to Orlando and Miami and past failure is a concern).  In other words, the largest markets would get first shot but the fallback cities have better existing support and are good candidates.

30 minutes ago, J-Rob said:

1.  Why would city give them a dime now?

2.  If the County re-voted today, I suspect they would vote "no".  Observer inferred that the deal is illegal.  

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by JBS

[kermit]

47 minutes ago, JBS said:

1.  Why would city give them a dime now?

I wonder the same thing. If the bid is moving forward regardless then what does the city have to gain?  10 free use days a year certainly doesn't have a $47 million value.

I wonder what would have happened if the county said no to the $75 million loan?

[cltbwimob]

The city can take the $3:$1 (team/county:city) deal Marcus proposes, or the city can do a $4:$0 deal, fund nothing, risk nothing, and still enjoy the benefits of having another Major League franchise in town.  No Marcus, if the city gives you any money now, it is not smart; it is dumb and if council votes to give you money, they are inept and do not deserve to hold office.  You showed your hand.

Edited January 31, 2017 by cltbwimob

[HopHead]

I saw that Phoenix and Indianapolis are now submitting bids tomorrow as well. Almost like.. what city is NOT considering an expansion bid? Crazy.

[SgtCampsalot]

"Smart!"

I wonder what major Twitter figure that reminds me of...

[Niner National]

19 hours ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

For what it's worth at the supporters group event yesterday the owner of the Independence was there and said even prior to the Smith debacle from last week they were told MLS views Charlotte as the 8th market out of the 10 they've come out to say they're interested in.  San Diego, Detroit/St Louis, Sacramento and Nashville (surprise one) were the top cities in the minds of the MLS.

Other interesting news is if the Smith's don't submit their bid or are unsuccessful the Independence will try again for phase 1 renovations of Memorial to convert to a 10,000 seat stadium.

Interesting. I figured with our support for the friendlies, fast growing market, and strong support of our existing professional franchises, we'd be close to the top of the list. NC is a top 10 population state and quickly growing. I'd think both Charlotte and Raleigh would be near the top of the list for that reason and the large gap between Atlanta and DC.