MLS in Charlotte - 2021

[CLT2014]

51 minutes ago, Niner National said:

Interesting. I figured with our support for the friendlies, fast growing market, and strong support of our existing professional franchises, we'd be close to the top of the list. NC is a top 10 population state and quickly growing. I'd think both Charlotte and Raleigh would be near the top of the list for that reason and the large gap between Atlanta and DC.

Our biggest weakness is our city's lack of support for Charlotte Independence IMO. We rank 23rd in average USL attendance at only 1,375 per game. A high school football team gets more fans. Compare that to USL's FC Cincinnati where average attendance is over 17,000 per game (more than many MLS teams). When the MLS Commissioner showed up to visit Cincinnati and their plans in November, thousands of fans greeted him and welcomed him to town. 

Sacramento has over 9,500 fans that hold season tickets that would roll over to MLS. San Antonio's USL team is 12 miles outside of their downtown and drawing 6,200 fans per game. St. Louis FC is drawing 5,000 per game and nearly selling out their venue out in the suburbs 18 miles from downtown St. Louis. Other cities have shown they are truly passionate enough about soccer to support their soccer teams playing in city parks or suburban stadiums. A central venue will only help these cities draw fans. I'm a little concerned Charlotte doesn't have enough true fans based off poor attendance for Independence and the city is more in a "if there is craft beer and upscale seating with views of the skyline, sure I'll go once or twice a year" mood. The friendly attendance has been solid and I wonder if that would actually translate into attending MLS games. 

It will be interesting to see how the MLS balances current support for the B-league teams that would likely be at 15,000+ fans in the first season and the desire to place another team in the Southeast here in Charlotte, Raleigh, or Nashville. I also believe the Knights attendance in Uptown shows Charlotte will show up if the venue is right, we just might be more fair weather fans than a place like St. Louis where they show up to the games despite the poor venue. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by CLT2014

[SouthEndCLT811]

Good synopsis CLT2014.  That's why this bid follows the Atlanta MLS more so then the Orlando, Cincy, Sacramento, St. Louis strategies.

Atlanta sparsely followed the Silverbacks in NASL out in the burbs.  A rich local sports figure (Arthur Blank) bids MLS separately and has a plan for a new downtown stadium with public funding (granted NFL inclusive) and the NASL team dies upon the announcement MLS is coming to town.

It's worked well for them with 27,000 season ticket holders going into their first season.  But that's the blueprint for Charlotte in MLS, it's all appeal of market over support of an existing club.

Edited January 31, 2017 by SouthEndCLT811

[videtur quam contuor]

I have worked for years at area high schools and the argument that the youth soccer movement augurs for high interest for professional teams is belied with a simple comparison of high school soccer attendance and high school football attendance. No comparison. Football attendance dwarfs soccer at that level, the only level at which I have personal experience.

[atlrvr]

Only counterpoint....HS Football games happen Friday nights at ~7pm.  HS soccer games happen Mon-Thur at ~4pm. (though I suspect even if adjusted for time and # of games in a season, HS Football would still outdraw soccer) That said, HS baseball game attendence?  meh....i bet you soccer is higher, yet MLB is 2nd highest attendance after NFL.

My previous post on this topic was around participation rates, and the relative growth rates.

 

[ChessieCat]

7 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Our biggest weakness is our city's lack of support for Charlotte Independence IMO. We rank 23rd in average USL attendance at only 1,375 per game. A high school football team gets more fans. Compare that to USL's FC Cincinnati where average attendance is over 17,000 per game (more than many MLS teams). When the MLS Commissioner showed up to visit Cincinnati and their plans in November, thousands of fans greeted him and welcomed him to town. 

Sacramento has over 9,500 fans that hold season tickets that would roll over to MLS. San Antonio's USL team is 12 miles outside of their downtown and drawing 6,200 fans per game. St. Louis FC is drawing 5,000 per game and nearly selling out their venue out in the suburbs 18 miles from downtown St. Louis. Other cities have shown they are truly passionate enough about soccer to support their soccer teams playing in city parks or suburban stadiums. A central venue will only help these cities draw fans. I'm a little concerned Charlotte doesn't have enough true fans based off poor attendance for Independence and the city is more in a "if there is craft beer and upscale seating with views of the skyline, sure I'll go once or twice a year" mood. The friendly attendance has been solid and I wonder if that would actually translate into attending MLS games. 

It will be interesting to see how the MLS balances current support for the B-league teams that would likely be at 15,000+ fans in the first season and the desire to place another team in the Southeast here in Charlotte, Raleigh, or Nashville. I also believe the Knights attendance in Uptown shows Charlotte will show up if the venue is right, we just might be more fair weather fans than a place like St. Louis where they show up to the games despite the poor venue. 

I was one of 10 or so Independence fans who traveled to Boston in 2015 to see them defeat the NE Revolution B-team in the US Open Cup and it was like watching David beat Goliath, especially for a team in its first year of existence.  

The fact that there is no promotion or relegation within MLS sours me on supporting the league.  Seems like another cartel to restrict competition and extract as much tax dollars as possible from the public like all the other major sports leagues in the US.  If the US soccer pyramid were a true pyramid like in traditional soccer countries instead of a pyramid scheme to enrich the ownership cartel through franchise fees, then I would support it.

Edited January 31, 2017 by ChessieCat

[CLT2014]

You can track the bids as they are submitted on the MLS website: http://www.mlssoccer.com/topic/expansion/2017/expansion-cities-bids

Several of them have included YouTube videos promoting the city, soccer culture, and renderings of the stadium. Raleigh (video, no rendering), Tampa (video with rendering), San Antonio (video, current stadium expanded), San Diego (rendering), and St. Louis (rendering) have submitted bids so far... 

[HopHead]

I think Tampa Bay has the coolest looking stadium renderings out of all of them.  

[CLT2014]

I agree, Tampa's stadium looks great. Phoenix's stadium will be tempting as well. They are proposing indoor and climate controlled to deal with the heat and the metro has over 4 million people. They would also have training facilities for each team to use during January and February in a moderate winter climate (probably why the MLS personally invited Phoenix to visit, they need a warm winter training camp). Nashville's mayor hand delivered their bid!

Charlotte's bid is in, but not yet on the MLS site. I'm a little discouraged that our bid is the most disorganized. No rendering, no promo video, no exciting buzz on Twitter or Facebook like the other cities. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by CLT2014

[Synopsis101]

It's now on the site. 

[CLT2014]

And we have a tweet.... I'd say we are a longshot.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/topic/expansion/2017/expansion-cities-bids

Edited February 1, 2017 by CLT2014

[HopHead]

By comparison, Charlotte's bid looks half-assed compared to everyone else. Heck, Indianapolis who no body knew about looks like they are well organized. I've only recently started following this closely and looks to me that Sacramento, Detroit and Cincinnati are real strong candidates. Especially given their prospective owner groups and existing season ticket bases with the lower level clubs. I'll reserve judgment until we get more information, but I wouldn't put the Charlotte bid anywhere near the top at the present time. A lot can change though.

[Synopsis101]

It's updated! Charlotte's bid doesn't look like a complete joke now.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Synopsis101

[HopHead]

Ok, I retract my previous statement about it being a joke  Nice image. And dat view!

Link: http://www.mlssoccer.com/topic/expansion/2017/expansion-cities-bids

[Missmylab4]

I like the stadium interior rendering, pretty good setup and great view. I think the Smith's will go hard after this, especially facing the fact NASCAR has plateaued and seems to have lost some people if anything. If I was them I'd be trying to diversify my holdings and what better to try and ride than MLS for awhile. Just my 2 cents. 

 

[CLT2014]

Love the view! Our bid looks much better now!

[RiverwoodCLT]

If MLS wants an uptown view, they got it here.

[ssh214]

Wells Fargo Field? That would have an amazing ring to it and they would certainly take a jab at BoA! 

[CLT2014]

9 hours ago, saamh said:

Wells Fargo Field? That would have an amazing ring to it and they would certainly take a jab at BoA! 

Wells Fargo traditionally has not gotten into the sports arena sponsorship business. Wachovia did however and with more Wachovia leadership shifting the culture and the hit to their brand, they may be interested in naming rights and goodwill. The Wells Fargo Center in Philly is a grandfathered naming rights from the Wachovia acquisition and Wells dropped being the team's official banking sponsor so the team only calls it "The Center" and tried to paint the "Wells Fargo" on the court as small as legally possible until the naming rights run out.

 Chase and Bank of America have actively embraced the strategy of sponsoring sports / naming rights for arenas.

Edited February 1, 2017 by CLT2014

[SgtCampsalot]

So what was the final City of Charlotte's decision, and the Smiths' response? Is Marcus just saying he'd pony up the extra dough?

[HopHead]

I could see someone like Duke Energy, Sealed Air or the like jumping in as well as another one of the financial institutions in town (Ally Bank anyone?) trying to make a name for themselves. Wells Fargo already has their name on the PGA event here so yea, I doubt they'd be the ones to put naming rights on the facility. 

[southslider]

Any reuse of Independence Park risks litigation, due to the underlying deed restrictions for the land.

[ah59396]

Marcus Smith was on 610 this morning, I was...not impressed.  When asked about why he thinks an MLS team would do well in Charlotte, his response was essentially:

 

I think if you brought football fans to a soccer game and they saw the atmosphere, 9/10 would say 'hey, this is pretty cool'

 

Nothing about millennial growth in Charlotte and growth of the sport, nothing about Charlotte's changing demographics that come from soccer hotbed nations.  It quite literally sounded like a guy that only knows motorsports, decided to get into MLS last week...

 

I was really hoping to hear him wow me and I came away very unimpressed.  

 

Edit:  But, fwiw, the Sacramento bid appears to be collapsing, which is incredible.  The highly successful Sacramento Republic FC, a shoe-in for a bid, was apparently not involved in their MLS bid.  An outside ownership group with no affiliation is the one who made the bid.  Could be a disaster for them.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by ah59396

[atlrvr]

Jeld-Wen was the stadium sponsor for the Portland Timbers before they relocated their HQ here a few years ago, and dropped their naming rights in Portland.

That said, I think Ally or Brighthouse (the MetLife retail spin-off) would be most likely.

Edit:  I think most of the bids were actually pretty flimsy.  Detroit I think was strongest.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Again FWIW but if you believe the Indy ownership group they gave details of the talks when trying to partner with the Smith's they may be looking for a quick ROI on the team.  Apparently MLS only requires 25% of the expansion fee upfront and then it's built into the cost of operating the franchise throughout the remainder off the balance.  Also the team would pay $12.5M toward the stadium up front.  So essentially they thought the rising team values they'd make a $49M up front investment to bring a club here and flip their share for hundreds of millions in a few years to a new majority owner as franchise values continue to go up.

Getting into tin foil hat conspiracy theory territory but I do not see their passion for the sport as with some other bids.  However to end on a positive for the Smith's, I do like the sports portfolio of the architecture group they chose for the rendering that was released.

Edited February 1, 2017 by SouthEndCLT811

[deaconator]

So what was the final City of Charlotte's decision, and the Smiths' response? Is Marcus just saying he'd pony up the extra dough?

See the article from the CBJ last night - the mayor more or less says don't expect the city to give any money towards a 2017 bid, but they'd talk about a bid in a future year. Meanwhile, seems like the Smiths aren't saying a word about where that money would come from "if" the city doesn't pony up the cash.

But why would the city put it cash now? Smith went forward without them so he needs to find a way to make it work, and I'm sure at this point that will be the story from the city.

From the MLS perspective - I'm guessing that if they don't get more clarity from the greater Charlotte bid situation in the coming weeks/months, they will eliminate it (if it's not already out). A lot of the bids are flawed though, so I think the Smiths need to get things ironed out and go for it.

I just worry that we are gonna end up at a financial standoff and it's going to kill this thing.



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