MLS in Charlotte - 2021

[Jack152]

1 hour ago, Merthecat said:

It would be great for either city, and if one were awarded a team over the other, both cities should be grateful that MLS even came to NC in the first place.

 

But that won't happen. MLS works best as a live, local experience. Raleigh fans won't flock to their tv's to watch a Charlotte MLS team. And vice versa.

For soccer fans in general, MLS is only relevant if it's in your town.

[cjd5050]

On 7/21/2017 at 11:24 AM, Merthecat said:

Why should Charlotte care if Raleigh's bid involves the state government?  Charlotte never (as far as I know) asked for land from the state to build their stadium.  Raleigh's proposal requires state involvement, Charlotte's does not.  It's totally absurd to me to think that one city would wish to stop another city in the state from growing.  If anything they should be cooperating, not competing (although with the bids that does make it difficult).  It would be great for either city, and if one were awarded a team over the other, both cities should be grateful that MLS even came to NC in the first place.

2

You think it's absurd that people in Charlotte would have an issue with State land transferred to private hands for pennies on the dollar?   That's a pretty naive and unaware assertion, to be honest.

The reason why Charlotte should care if the State is involved in the Raleigh bid is the land that Raleigh wants to use belongs to everyone in North Carolina.  Only a fool would be ok with helping your competition to the detriment of yourself.  The reason why Charlotte has not asked the State for land is the State does not have the same land holdings in Charlotte as it does in Raleigh.  Due to the State Capitol and all....

Sorry but I think it's pretty naive to suggest Raleigh and Charlotte should be cooperating with each other's bids and should be accepting of the others win as a victory in itself.   Many would argue with you that this is not 'every gets a trophy time.'   

On 7/21/2017 at 11:24 AM, Merthecat said:

I personally prefer Charlotte's stadium plan, but I think Raleigh has the advantage overall.  We're a smaller market, yes, but the local support is far deeper than in Charlotte.  I was at the Raleigh rally, and I would estimate that we had at least twice as many attendees as Charlotte.  I couldn't even get inside the building at City Market, and there were hundreds of people standing outside.  Malik isn't asking for public money aside from infrastructure, whereas Smith is. 

 

If the support in Raleigh is so much stronger I am sure your county and city can find a way to pay for the stadium without North Carolina funds.....  

On 7/21/2017 at 11:24 AM, Merthecat said:

 Mecklenburg's politicians who are crying over Raleigh's attempt to land a pro sports team should be ashamed of themselves.  It's not one city over the other, it's two cities with inherently different bids and different needs, both hoping to be awarded a team.  I don't think the state will complain if Charlotte is awarded an MLS team, it's just that they have to work with Raleigh to make their stadium plan feasible.

 

Sorry but you're either being really dishonest here are you're just super naive.  The MLS is multiple cities against each other looking to land a couple of teams.  Removing the cost of land acquisition from the Raleigh proposal allows for funds to be spent elsewhere or not at all.  Thus either improving the bid or lessening the risk for the ownership group.  

The State does not have to 'work' with Raleigh.  This is false.  The State has the option to stay out of it.  Raleigh should find a stadium location on city land and fund it with local dollars.  Period.

Edited July 24, 2017 by cjd5050

[Green_man]

What if the land swap / stadium is a good deal for the state?  Do you change your tune?  The Archdale needs more than $100 million for renovations to stay usable for state govt offices.  That money could be better used to build a new more efficient tower and combined with the other office spaces that would be demo'd.  Private developer builds stadium and parking decks.  City pays for roads.

They're not asking for the state govt to play favorites, just consider reasonable options.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Green_man

[js4life]

11 minutes ago, Green_man said:

What if the land swap / stadium is a good deal for the state?  Do you change your tune?  The Archdale needs more than $100 million for renovations to stay usable for state govt offices.  That money could be better used to build a new more efficient tower and combined with the other office spaces that would be demo'd.  Private developer builds stadium and parking decks.  City pays for roads.

They're not asking for the state govt to play favorites, just consider reasonable options.

The problem is that's not how these proposed deals work.  Most want the land at extremely below market rates in exchange for the overall value their proposed development would bring. And trust me the infrastructure needed to make this site viable for all the proposed development ends up north of a 100 million. So the question is how much of that do they expect the city,county & state to cover.

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, Green_man said:

What if the land swap / stadium is a good deal for the state?  Do you change your tune?  The Archdale needs more than $100 million for renovations to stay usable for state govt offices.  That money could be better used to build a new more efficient tower and combined with the other office spaces that would be demo'd.  Private developer builds stadium and parking decks.  City pays for roads.

They're not asking for the state govt to play favorites, just consider reasonable options.

The only way to determine if a land swap is a good deal is to have an open bidding process.  Put the same return requirements that the private MLS team is willing to provide out there and then wait to see what offers come in.  

 

[ah59396]

I think the obvious solution here is to have the stadium built in Foxfire, NC.  As the crow flies, it's the perfectly centralized location between Raleigh, Charlotte and the Triad.  I bet the land would be cheap too.

[SgtCampsalot]

25 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

I think the obvious solution here is to have the stadium built in Foxfire, NC.  As the crow flies, it's the perfectly centralized location between Raleigh, Charlotte and the Triad.  I bet the land would be cheap too.

I'd hop on a streetcar for that.

[Nick2]

I

6 hours ago, ah59396 said:

I think the obvious solution here is to have the stadium built in Foxfire, NC.  As the crow flies, it's the perfectly centralized location between Raleigh, Charlotte and the Triad.  I bet the land would be cheap too.

That's my home turf so it's weird to hear that mentioned on here. And I know of a lovely thousand acre tract of land up for sale in foxfire with lakes on it and everything. Let's get some crowdsource funding going.

[KJHburg]

Seems now to be a shortfall on the stadium construction from both city and county. https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2017/07/25/clt-soccer-bid-faces-potential-30m-stadium.html?ana=e_clt_bn&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1501006940&j=78599951

[SentioVenia]

If attendance is any criterion, the Charlotte bid's not looking too hot:

https://www.socceramerica.com/article/74361/mls-expansion-our-summer-attendance-meter.html?edition=17568

[SouthEndCLT811]

6 minutes ago, SentioVenia said:

If attendance is any criterion, the Charlotte bid's not looking too hot:

https://www.socceramerica.com/article/74361/mls-expansion-our-summer-attendance-meter.html?edition=17568

Minnesota United had attendance of 1,374 in 2010, 1,676 in 2011, 2,651 in 2012, 4,445 in 2013 before taking off to 8,100 the year prior to the MLS announcement.

Atlanta Silverbacks averaged 2,800-4,000 the years leading to the Atlanta United bid and now they're selling out.

Just pointing out that if you have an appealing market that fills a gap in the MLS, performance of the current team isn't the end all.  Though the landscape has changed dramatically with both of those bids.  Sacramento wasn't averaging 13k nor Cincy close to 20k at the time.  But neither fill a gap in the league regionally (Cincy close to the Crew, Sac close to SJ) so it'll be interesting.

At least Independence has grown attendance by about 15% and maybe a stable home with a great product they can actually, ya know, market it.  Coming from a big Indy fan I hear enough stuff about the team not fulfilling or keeping on top of their marketing obligations with their partners.  It's frustrating because the guys that play deserve way better.  The team is near the top of our conference and 10 games without a loss currently, if only the front office didn't make it so hard for the majority of Charlotte to know that about them.

[jtmonk]

Yeah, I really hate when people write articles like this and cherry pick their data.  They could have also stated that Charlotte pulled in nearly 70,000 fans at the Liverpool F.C./Milan  match in August 2014, or stated the stats for any other match we held at BOA Stadium since they have all had very large crowds. 

[kermit]

3 hours ago, SentioVenia said:

If attendance is any criterion, the Charlotte bid's not looking too hot:

https://www.socceramerica.com/article/74361/mls-expansion-our-summer-attendance-meter.html?edition=17568

From my perspective as a non-soccer guy I can't think of any more snakebit effort (judging by the publicly available information) to obtain a major league team than this one. Its not a knock on the Independence, its mostly directed at the appallingly casual approach that the Smiths have taken to the process. Its as if they had just assumed that city, county and fan support would materialize around them without any effort on their part.

I do hope that once the Smith's bid is euthanized that McPhilliamy can finally get some traction on a minor league renovation of memorial stadium for the Indy. Seems to me like solid grassroots support for the minor league option is the only way forward. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by kermit

[Jack152]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:47 AM, kermit said:

 

I do hope that once the Smith's bid is euthanized that McPhilliamy can finally get some traction on a minor league renovation of memorial stadium for the Indy. Seems to me like solid grassroots support for the minor league option is the only way forward. 

McPhilliamay's business plan was minor league first, then MLS. Under the last renovation plan, he would pitch in $8 million, and the county would put up $16 million to cover the rest of the costs.

If MLS is off the table, you have to wonder about McPhilliamy's willingness to throw $8 million at minor league soccer, with no major league payoff in sight. And if the county won't pony up $30 million for a major league stadium, why would they fork over $16 million (or more) for a minor league one?

[SouthEndCLT811]

29 minutes ago, Jack152 said:

McPhilliamay's business plan was minor league first, then MLS. Under the last renovation plan, he would pitch in $8 million, and the county would put up $16 million to cover the rest of the costs.

If MLS is off the table, you have to wonder about McPhilliamy's willingness to throw $8 million at minor league soccer, with no major league payoff in sight. And if the county won't pony up $30 million for a major league stadium, why would they fork over $16 million (or more) for a minor league one?

It was a three way partnership as well, city/county/team all in at $8M.  FWIW Matt Ridenhour of the county and Wade of the Indy both tweeted in the past month they'd be working to get it back on the table.  Allegedly had support of both the city and county last year before Marcus Smith got involved, makes sense why the vote kept getting delayed from end of August to September to October and then it went radio silent.

Edited August 2, 2017 by SouthEndCLT811

[asthasr]

The deal was defeated 5-3 at the BOCC.

[CLT2014]

Marcus Smith drops out in 3...2...1...

[js4life]

The deal wasn't defeated it was modified. The county will deed the land memorial/Grady sits  on to the city. 

[CLT2014]

9 hours ago, js4life said:

The deal wasn't defeated it was modified. The county will deed the land memorial/Grady sits  on to the city. 

The city would now have to up its contribution to over $80M now or Marcus Smith will need to pay more right?

Edited August 3, 2017 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

I believe the county just said, "here, have fun with this enormous maintenance liability." 

[KJHburg]

I have an radical idea: why doesn't the Smith family take the free land and build their own stadium? The city could deed the site to him and he could build and control the whole thing. This same Smith family once threatened to move the speedway out of Cabarrus county if the county did not build more roads etc. Some of those roads were built and the speedway Removed seats instead of adding them. If MLS soccer is going to the highest bidding free stadium city, let them go. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by KJHburg

[CLT2014]

So the stadium is expected to cost $175 million.

Original proposal was going to be:

County: $43.75M
City: $43.75M
Smith: $87.5M, with County upfront loan of $75M paid back by Smith with interest

Now it is going to have to be:
County: $0
City: $87.5M (who has indicated they are capped out at $30M)
Smith: $87.5M, with City upfront loan of $75M paid back by Smith with interest

City would be at $162.5M in cash out for construction and have to wait 25 years to be repaid back on $75M. 

Smith is going to have to either seriously up his investment in the construction of the stadium and rely less on tax dollars, or the city is going to end up depleting their tourism tax pool rather quickly. Can the city even afford to do $162.5 million out the door for construction today and accomplish other projects like refurbishing the convention center, upgrading Blumenthal, etc...?

Edited August 3, 2017 by CLT2014

[swh1972]

21 hours ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

It was a three way partnership as well, city/county/team all in at $8M.  FWIW Matt Ridenhour of the county and Wade of the Indy both tweeted in the past month they'd be working to get it back on the table.  Allegedly had support of both the city and county last year before Marcus Smith got involved, makes sense why the vote kept getting delayed from end of August to September to October and then it went radio silent.

In my opinion, this would be a great ending if it goes that way.  You still get to upgrade Memorial Stadium and Grady Cole so they can be used, and find a permanent home for our existing team.  I think $16MM of tax money to rejuvenate this site is well worth it.

[SouthEndCLT811]

11 minutes ago, swh1972 said:

In my opinion, this would be a great ending if it goes that way.  You still get to upgrade Memorial Stadium and Grady Cole so they can be used, and find a permanent home for our existing team.  I think $16MM of tax money to rejuvenate this site is well worth it.

Reminder of that plan proposed if anyone is curious.  If the city decides the 15th not to take ownership of the stadium those timelines in the last few slides may be possible if the Independence swoop back in, just change the years the events are happening by 1.

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/10082204/memorial-stadium-bocc-7-6-16-1.pdf

Edited August 3, 2017 by SouthEndCLT811

[js4life]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The city would now have to up its contribution to over $80M now or Marcus Smith will need to pay more right?

True, but with ownership of the land the city has more options to finance outside of the tourism tax. If the proposed 700 million in development happens around this site they could reserve a % of the tax value toward the building.