High-Speed Rail

[prahaboheme]

The only hope I have at this point is that Dockery was HSR's biggest advocate. Having his wife in Scott's court may be the one thing that can save it at this point. What a shame we actually have to this about this after coming so far.

[alex]

Thanks for the links.

It's just embarrassing that people still think like this:

"Passenger rail is not in Ohio’s future,” Mr. Kasich said at his first news conference after the election. “That train is dead.”

Mr. Kasich had previously called the high-speed rail project the “dumbest idea” he had ever heard, saying that there was too little demand to justify its construction and that the state could not afford to operate it. Like his Wisconsin counterpart, he also said the rail money should be spent on roads. "

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/a-high-speed-derailment/

As for Florida, the state is only paying half of SunRail and 20% of the Orlando-Tampa HSR. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but why should the whole country pay for something only select cities will use? This is probably the best help we'll ever get, and if we don't jump on it now we'll all end up like LA.

EDIT: Also wanted to share this link. Although the "worst traffic" rankings are always different, this one puts Orlando (I-4) at number seven. Interestingly enough, NYC is never on any list...

[bic]

This is probably the best help we'll ever get, and if we don't jump on it now we'll all end up like LA.

Even LA is on board with building a comprehensive rail network these days.

[jack]

HSR, not a fan. If Scott kills, I will not complain. Sunrail, I am all for it.

[prahaboheme]

Care to elaborate?

[prahaboheme]

So basically HSR is falling apart: Article

There is nothing logical about building the Tampa/Orlando link in segments, that completely defeats the purpose of "high speed rail" -- it would likely never get completed anyway. If they are to do an OIA to Disney link, they might as well just do a standard light rail connection that links the metro area properly.

[jack]

I think the money would be better spent by giving Tampa and Orlando the funds the use for local transportation projects, Light rail, etc. I cannot find a reason that someone would ride this. I believe the cities throughout Florida need to build up their local options first, then connect themselves to each other.

[cwetteland]

I think the money would be better spent by giving Tampa and Orlando the funds the use for local transportation projects, Light rail, etc. I cannot find a reason that someone would ride this. I believe the cities throughout Florida need to build up their local options first, then connect themselves to each other.

I agree on the ridership issue on the Orlando to Tampa segment. Only a larger system makes sense. But to build a large system you have to, at some point, build the first segment. You say light rail makes more sense. It had the same problem. While everyone thought a large light rail system made sense they couldn't justify what would be the first segment (downtown to I drive) and so scrapped the whole thing. To me that was a major failure of vision. No first segment can be justified as a stand-alone project. It killed light rail in Orlando once, and it sounds like opponents are trying to use it to kill HSR now. Failure of vision strikes again.

[rich305]

The funds were designated for rail projects and someone is going to receive them for that purpose. I feel that with all these states forfeiting their awards, some forward thinking state might become the beneficiary of a much larger award then they originally thought.

And I agree. No system is going to be built out right away. Not sure why so many people can't realize that these are pieces of what will eventually be a larger system.

[cloudship]

At this point, I have to say that I no longer support the project. Not that I don't think it would work or is not a good idea - I think that over time this could have been a huge success for the state economically, socially, and and environmentally. But like most government projects, too many naysayers and political activists do what they can to slow down and cripple a project so that is not successful to their own gain.

There are too many other states right now that are willing to put the required effort into getting rail service in much needed areas. Florida has no real intention of doing anything productive with the funds - I think that they owe the government to pay back the $800 million that other states lost out on instead of forcing federal taxpayers to foot the bill for their own shenanigans. I also think that this should be reflected in government funds that the state receives for other projects. Don't ask other states to foot the bill for what you decide to do without their consent.

[DeepEyez]

It's definitely saddening and unfortunate to see the Repubs kill a project that had so much promise. Hence the reason that I don't believe this country (as a collection of citizens through government power) has the ability to solve big problems. Everything good and forward-thinking gets killed politically and the people lose faith in the system. The only people who get their way in this country are corporate powers and ultra-conservative libertarians. In the end, I guess they just may be the moral majority of this country.

[prahaboheme]

They killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

[John Hargrove]

Interesting how political defeat is so widely felt on these forums. There must be a huge correlation between liberals and people excited about public projects. I mean, it only makes sense, and I'm a very liberal person .. I just find it interesting.

[FLClarkKent]

I'll go ahead and play devil's advocate. It's a good thing for the HSR project to be stopped in its tracks (no pun intended). Its failure to generate ridership and revenue in its early stages (and everyone knows it will fail in this regard) will play right into the hands of the naysayers. It will doom any other high speed rail projects for a generation, and could sink other transportation initiatives throughout the state.

No one will use the Orlando to Tampa route in significant numbers. Not tourists going to the convention center, and especially not ones going to Disney (would you really forgo Disney's Magical Express - where you you never have to pick up your bags, and are dropped off directly at your hotel - in favor of collecting your bags, lugging your bags and your kids across the airport to a train station, buying a train ticket, waiting for the train, riding the train, getting to another train station, grabbing your bags and then taking a bus to your hotel?)

Business folks in either city aren't going to use it in any significant numbers either. My company's main office is in Tampa. I go there a few times each quarter. I'm not going to drive from my home, pay to park at the airport, buy a train ticket, etc. etc. It's easier and cheaper to drive to Tampa, and it's going to be that way for some time to come.

The project will be a failure when viewed in terms of initial ridership and funds generated. And while smart folks like those of us on these boards who pay attention to urban planning issues understand that a high speed rail network will take lots of time and lots of connected segments to succeed, there are plenty of naysayers who will quickly seize upon this route's short-term failings and say "Look! High speed rail doesn't work. What a waste! Socialism! Ack!" And because there's an element of truth to what they're saying (because this isn't the right route to build first - Orlando to Miami is the way to go, and we all know it), a lot of folks around the state will buy into their arguments.

High speed rail is going to have one shot in this political environment. The Orlando to Tampa route isn't it. Mica or another transportation leader needs to step up and and acknowledge this, and push for the Orlando to Miami route instead.

[palmtree73]

I think it's too early to give up. The Republicans are still ramped up from their fresh kill last week, and there's still a lot of posturing and chest beating going on. I will admit to being a bit concerned because it was the Republican governors and legislatures in Florida and Ohio that gave the green light to these projects in the first place. What I'd like to see is some pushback from supporters of HSR about the true costs of maintaining the status quo of building more roads and all the costs involved with importing oil, harming the environment, and poor land-use and zoning along the new roads. And to point out the lies about how only two high-density populations could make the rail profitable when the new Lynchburg (pop. 73,000) to DC line doubled ridership a couple of years ahead of schedule and is turning a profit.

[prahaboheme]

Scott may support this after all, according to Dockery: Article

I have to say, I'm disappointed in Mica's most recent comments on rail -- he has been a strong supporter of mass transit all along. Politics is obviously clouding his vision.

[aent]

I think it's too early to give up. The Republicans are still ramped up from their fresh kill last week, and there's still a lot of posturing and chest beating going on. I will admit to being a bit concerned because it was the Republican governors and legislatures in Florida and Ohio that gave the green light to these projects in the first place. What I'd like to see is some pushback from supporters of HSR about the true costs of maintaining the status quo of building more roads and all the costs involved with importing oil, harming the environment, and poor land-use and zoning along the new roads. And to point out the lies about how only two high-density populations could make the rail profitable when the new Lynchburg (pop. 73,000) to DC line doubled ridership a couple of years ahead of schedule and is turning a profit.

I agree, Republicans have given lots of support to these projects in the past... I don't think all hope is lost for it. There will be special interests getting involved in the government pushing him to do it and the usual government corruption in nearly everything it does, and when it hits these brand new governors as related to these projects, they'll probably change their mind. Siemens seems to already have a budget hear in Florida to lobby the new governor to gain his support. Hell, even towards the very end, I think Rick Scott started hushing up about the high speed rail after realizing how much it has already costed the state to get this far and how much more it will actually end up costing the state taxpayers (he is fine with receiving federal funds for it, he just doesn't want it to cost the state too much)

As this route is supposed to be the example route that is a demonstration of the possibilities, he's going to have a lot of people all around reminding him of that, of the fact the feds are likely to give even more money to get people using the system. I think the results of this election just means there is going to be more scrutiny on the project, they won't be able to do really stupid things like not connect the HSR to the SunRail, which would be devastating for ridership on both and reduce the usefulness of the projects. I mean, really, who here would use the HSR if you have to drive to and park at the airport? Or take buses from the sunrail to the HSR that make the trip end up taking at least an hour more then driving, with wait times and no easy way to get to your destination?

There's been no news about the HSR/SunRail since the election, we don't know what the election results mean yet.

[bic]

2,000 Seek High-Speed Train Jobs

[jack]

I am all for supporting public transportation but not HSR from Tampa to Orlando. I cannot speak of the other routes in Wisconsin or California but here I do not believe it will be succesful. I cannot find a good reason for anyone to ride it. If tickets were lower, maybe it would have a larger ridership. But it still would not be enough to justify expenditures. And when this fails, it will doom other viable projects throughout the country. Public tranportation foes will point to this project as to why the government should not invest in public transportation.

[cwetteland]

I am all for supporting public transportation but not HSR from Tampa to Orlando. I cannot speak of the other routes in Wisconsin or California but here I do not believe it will be succesful. I cannot find a good reason for anyone to ride it. If tickets were lower, maybe it would have a larger ridership. But it still would not be enough to justify expenditures. And when this fails, it will doom other viable projects throughout the country. Public tranportation foes will point to this project as to why the government should not invest in public transportation.

Any single segment of a larger system will fail when judged in isolation. But if you never build the initial segments, the larger viable system never gets built.

I-4 would have never been viable as an Orlando - Tampa link. It's traffic coming down from the north via I-95 that make I-4 a heavily used route. Don't judge Orlando-Tampa HSR in a vacuum. Orlando - Tampa is the first step in Tampa-Orlando-Atlanta and Miami-Orlando-Atlanta.

A decade ago a light-rail was invisioned for the Orlando Metro that would have done basically what Sunrail proposes to do, except that instead of going down to Poinciana, it went to the attractions in the south. It was killed, primarily because the initial segment Downtown - IDrive wasn't seen as viable, even though most today think the whole system would be a great success.

[aent]

Sure, all systems don't do as well when judged in isolation, but that doesn't mean they need to completely fail. The problem is one of the main, promoted advantaged for the high speed rail is that its very fast, its not like traditional trains, it will get you there fast, but for the "example" route they're choosing that is supposed to be a demo of what can be done for the rest of the country, its a route that is easily driven and traffic isn't really terrible along the route compared to other routes. If they did the Miami-Orlando route, and still had it turn and go to disney, just left off the last wing and did the projects in reverse order, that little bit longer distance would have allowed the train to travel much faster, its a trip people don't like doing round trip in a day (people don't mind it THAT much for Tampa, its not to the point where they want a hotel like Miami), and it would have made it possible for people in South Florida to go to Orlando as a day trip.

And that route has less new construction to rely on. South Florida already has Tri-Rail along with MetroRail... and Orlando is at least planned to have SunRail operational before the high speed rail is operational. Even if they couldn't afford that entire path, I'm sure a 3-stop MCO-Canaveral-WPB connected to SunRail and TriRail would get much better ridership then this route. Then they could add on to it slower, working their way towards Tampa and Miami whenever they can get smaller amounts of funding, expanding one station at a time, which will really end up proving those routes so there won't be any doubts...

[bulldogger]

I'm surprised no one thinks that people from Tampa will use the train to go to Disney. Disney is a destination with multimodal transit already built in. For people that get into more international air travel, would it benefit Tampa residents to hop on the HSR and catch more available flights out of MCO? Just asking. I don't know if Tampa has the same carriers and available routes.

[cloudship]

MCO to Disney is not going to generate enough business. It's too short of a trip, HSR has no benefits over such a short distance, and there are cheaper alternativces. Mind you, these are standard railroad tracks. If they also ran a lightweight non-HSr train as a shuttle, then you would get huge ridership on that.

There are two significant links. The most important first hand is Lakeland to MCO. It will be far easier for people to drive to or get dropped off at the station and take the train to the airport than to drive all the way in. You are then also likely to see a lot of LCC airlines start using Lakeland with a shuttle to the train station. Putting the station at USF was unfortunately a bad move. The second big link, which will develop over time, is Lakeland to Tampa. This will be the commuter route - as most places find, people will actually spend longer commuting if they can do it in more comfort, and not have to stress out over driving. Again, Tampa really blew it on this by not supporting local transit - that alone would probably have jump started Tampa into a very successful city.

There are a couple of potentials out there. Right now the route runs down I-4 (bad idea, a budget compromise to get the project in under the shovel ready requirement that in the end will hurt a lot). But two prime destinations are located a little ways off the route - Bush Gardens in Tampa, and Legoland. Both of these are day destinations - if there was a direct link, you would have huge ridership of people spending most of their vacation at Disney, but taking a day trip to the other parks. Mind you, there is nothing stopping them from eventually building those links - even HSR can use switches.

Except, of course, politics.

P.S. anyone have pictures of the Velaro yet?

[mrh3]

This is so frustrating to read, but completely representative of the current state of the American psyche. The governor of Ohio is a lifelong politician and has presided over one of the most economically depressed states for almost 30 years. That guy is the wrong one to seek out for representation if new answers are sought to old problems. It's unfortunate for both the State of Ohio and the U.S. as a whole that partisanship has replaced rationale thinking, especially in the form of Federal Capital projects. As I see it, we've got 2 options: 1) Wait for them to die. 2) Wait for the next election cycle and put more forward thinkers in office. In the meantime, we're all going to be held hostage.

[mrh3]

Interesting how political defeat is so widely felt on these forums. There must be a huge correlation between liberals and people excited about public projects. I mean, it only makes sense, and I'm a very liberal person .. I just find it interesting.

I would make the assumption that people attracted to forums of this nature: UrbanPlanet tend to be Urbanists. In general, urbanists embrace values of liberalism. Quite frankly the specific things that make world cities like New York, Amsterdam, San Francisco great is often their public projects. New York would be non-functional without rail. What would Amsterdam be without its canals? or San Francisco without the Golden Gate Bridge. The fact that this often falls on Federal govt's is not lost on us because it's infrastructure that makes cities and nations great- on the other hand maybe we're just witnessing the end of American Exceptionalism.