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High-Speed Rail


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I'll go ahead and play devil's advocate. It's a good thing for the HSR project to be stopped in its tracks (no pun intended). Its failure to generate ridership and revenue in its early stages (and everyone knows it will fail in this regard) will play right into the hands of the naysayers. It will doom any other high speed rail projects for a generation, and could sink other transportation initiatives throughout the state.

No one will use the Orlando to Tampa route in significant numbers. Not tourists going to the convention center, and especially not ones going to Disney (would you really forgo Disney's Magical Express - where you you never have to pick up your bags, and are dropped off directly at your hotel - in favor of collecting your bags, lugging your bags and your kids across the airport to a train station, buying a train ticket, waiting for the train, riding the train, getting to another train station, grabbing your bags and then taking a bus to your hotel?)

Business folks in either city aren't going to use it in any significant numbers either. My company's main office is in Tampa. I go there a few times each quarter. I'm not going to drive from my home, pay to park at the airport, buy a train ticket, etc. etc. It's easier and cheaper to drive to Tampa, and it's going to be that way for some time to come.

The project will be a failure when viewed in terms of initial ridership and funds generated. And while smart folks like those of us on these boards who pay attention to urban planning issues understand that a high speed rail network will take lots of time and lots of connected segments to succeed, there are plenty of naysayers who will quickly seize upon this route's short-term failings and say "Look! High speed rail doesn't work. What a waste! Socialism! Ack!" And because there's an element of truth to what they're saying (because this isn't the right route to build first - Orlando to Miami is the way to go, and we all know it), a lot of folks around the state will buy into their arguments.

High speed rail is going to have one shot in this political environment. The Orlando to Tampa route isn't it. Mica or another transportation leader needs to step up and and acknowledge this, and push for the Orlando to Miami route instead.

FLClark Kent, Orlando is one of the top 5 convention destinations in the country. While you as a local may not be included to use the system it at least would provide an option for visitors and ease traffic congestion. Virtually every other top 5 Convention Center is located in an urban environment easily accessible to rail. I would also remind you that for small businesses attending trade shows in Orlando, car rental fees can be quite expensive and would free up capital for investment.

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MCO to Disney is not going to generate enough business. It's too short of a trip, HSR has no benefits over such a short distance, and there are cheaper alternativces. Mind you, these are standard railroad tracks. If they also ran a lightweight non-HSr train as a shuttle, then you would get huge ridership on that.

Cloudship,

HSR tracks are not "standard railroad tracks" at all. The grades are much lower and the ties are of concrete to limit expansion and movement to that maximum speeds an be attained.

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FLClark Kent, Orlando is one of the top 5 convention destinations in the country. While you as a local may not be included to use the system it at least would provide an option for visitors and ease traffic congestion. Virtually every other top 5 Convention Center is located in an urban environment easily accessible to rail. I would also remind you that for small businesses attending trade shows in Orlando, car rental fees can be quite expensive and would free up capital for investment.

Take a cab. Problem solved.

Again, let me reiterate that I like the idea of high speed rail, but... A convention attendee is going to arrive at MCO, pick up their bags, transfer to the high speed rail station, purchase a train ticket, ride the train with bags in hand to the convention center, only to have to hail a cab, grab a shuttle or walk to their hotel. That's about three steps too many for everyone, including those of us who love trains.

This is the wrong first link for a statewide high speed rail system. I have serious concerns that its failings will be used against similar transportation initiatives for years to come. I gladly welcome being proved wrong

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Take a cab. Problem solved.

Again, let me reiterate that I like the idea of high speed rail, but... A convention attendee is going to arrive at MCO, pick up their bags, transfer to the high speed rail station, purchase a train ticket, ride the train with bags in hand to the convention center, only to have to hail a cab, grab a shuttle or walk to their hotel. That's about three steps too many for everyone, including those of us who love trains.

This is the wrong first link for a statewide high speed rail system. I have serious concerns that its failings will be used against similar transportation initiatives for years to come. I gladly welcome being proved wrong

I have to disagree here. I travel a decent amount (about 50,000 miles/year), and I attend a lot of conference halls. My company saves a TON of money _and_ time when we go to places like Atlanta or Chicago and we can use public transportation to get to our hotels and events. The cost of a cab for minor short distances and the price of a train ticket (which is often less than $10), doesn't even come close to the daily cost of a rental car. It can cost more to PARK my rental car, per day, than it does for me to ride the red line.

I agree that there are always going to be times when people just want a rental car, but a lot of business travelers are very used to the airport->train->(shuttle or foot or cab) routine and have no problem figuring it out.

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Cloudship,

HSR tracks are not "standard railroad tracks" at all. The grades are much lower and the ties are of concrete to limit expansion and movement to that maximum speeds an be attained.

Actually, HSR can handle greater grades than conventional. Lighter cars means it is easier to move them uphill.

But the point is, while the overall system is HSR, you can have segments not built to that HSR standard. Likewise, just because the line is certified for HSR, it does not mean that you cannot run at more conventional speeds as well.

The big issue with current rail lines is that they have to mix big, heavy conventional freight trains with passenger service. This means that that the passenger trains have to be heavy, and thus slow, as well. Here we have an isolated line, where we can run light-weight trains. Some trains will run at high speeds. Some trains, however, if we properly design the stations and such, can run at more normal speeds, thus allowing for cheaper locomotives and stock. This in turn functions like a more efficient convention rail system. For instance, you could have a high speed train depart MCO to head to Tampa that travels at 150mph, while you can have a smaller local train, not like our convention passenger trains here but like they use in Europe, which might serve as a local between MCO, the convention center and Disney. It doesn't have to run at high speed. Or, if you can isolate a section of conventional rail line so you do not have a mix of heavy freight and lightweight HSR stock, you can run high speed to say Lakeland, and then turn off to the local tracks and run at convention speeds to reach downtown with the same train.

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Cloudship,

HSR tracks are not "standard railroad tracks" at all. The grades are much lower and the ties are of concrete to limit expansion and movement to that maximum speeds an be attained.

Plenty of low-speed "standard railroad tracks" have low grades and concrete ties (which help fuel efficiency for diesel-powered trains)- NJ Transit, Metro-North and the LIRR around NYC have both, as do plenty of freight railroads.

Grades can be much steeper; curves are not as sharp; turnouts/switches are different, etc.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV#Tracks

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<<ALERT>> We have posters eying our HSR funds in the Connecticut forums. I had to tell him to back off!!! :stop:

Forward looking states (Illinois and NY) are already lining up to grab whatever other states dont want. Maybe Scott should consider this idea since he is more open to HSR if the Feds pick up all the tab. If we can get Wisconsin's funding, we'd be closer to that reality.

Illinois wants Wisconsin's rejected stimulus funds

CHICAGO —

Illinois transportation officials say they'll take the $810 million in federal high-speed rail funds that Wisconsin Gov.-elect Scott Walker has said he'll reject.

Article

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And THAT is the whole point. Yes, the Tampa to Orlando route probably would be the best choice if all projects were considered equally. But for the Fed to have to pony up that much money (and that is a lot of money), then it needs to be a good investment. With the political games going on now in Florida, even if the governor decides not to outright cancel the plans, there is still going to be so much political compromise and one-upmanship that it is bound to turn the promising project into a failure simply due to political finagling. So unless the whole of Florida is willing to get behind the project, let a state that WILL get behind it 100% get the money.

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P.S. anyone have pictures of the Velaro yet?

I went to the Siemens High-Speed Rail Tour at the convention center earlier this week and got a few shots. There was a video screen outside the windows of the trains that played an animation that made it feel like you were moving. By the time the 2-3 minute presentation was over, I didn't want to get up because the seats were so comfortable.

IMG_0407.jpg

IMG_0405.jpg

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Plenty of low-speed "standard railroad tracks" have low grades and concrete ties (which help fuel efficiency for diesel-powered trains)- NJ Transit, Metro-North and the LIRR around NYC have both, as do plenty of freight railroads.

Grades can be much steeper; curves are not as sharp; turnouts/switches are different, etc.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV#Tracks

I stand corrected. Thanks for the link. I got my information from the California HSR system.

And THAT is the whole point. Yes, the Tampa to Orlando route probably would be the best choice if all projects were considered equally. But for the Fed to have to pony up that much money (and that is a lot of money), then it needs to be a good investment. With the political games going on now in Florida, even if the governor decides not to outright cancel the plans, there is still going to be so much political compromise and one-upmanship that it is bound to turn the promising project into a failure simply due to political finagling. So unless the whole of Florida is willing to get behind the project, let a state that WILL get behind it 100% get the money.

Not that it's a direct comparison, but the California HSR system's first leg is San Francisco-Sacramento. Sac is about the same size as Orlando and of course San Francisco-Oakland is about 5MM. After that's up and running they plan to extend to San Jose and down to Los Angeles and eventually San Diego.

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Rick Scott vs. high-speed rail

Rick Scott shouldn't try to kill the high-speed train to Tampa.

Emotions ran hot and cold during this week's high-speed rail show at the Orange County Convention Center. Those wanting to build, operate and ride the high-speed train that's supposed to link Orlando and Tampa beginning in 2015 spoke excitedly of its 168-mile-an-hour speed; its potential to connect with SunRail; and its ability to stimulate if not transform Central Florida's economy.

But many also worried aloud about whether the train would ever really serve passengers between Orlando International Airport,International Drive, Walt Disney World, Lakeland and downtown Tampa. They worried because of what happened Nov. 2: Rick Scott's election as governor.

As a candidate, Mr. Scott took a dim view of the $2.6billion project, indicating that he didn't want it in Florida if the state had to fund any part of it.

Gov.-elect Rick Scott v. High-Speed Rail

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High-speed rail stops in Lakeland and Polk County under scrutiny

ORLANDO, Florida - It's the billion dollar question the City of Lakeland and Polk County had hoped would have been answered by now.

Where will their future high-speed rail (HSR) station go?

While four other groups presented concepts for their respective HSR stations at a forum at the Orange County Convention CenterTuesday, Lakeland and Polk County had to split up their presentation because they are debating between several sites.

High-speed rail under scrutiny

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It's rediculous that Japan can plan something for the year 2045 and we're debating on a dinky* little local train that may or may not be operational in 14 months.

* Dinky compared to what other countries are doing -- I personally love SunRail.

Here Here!

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Richard Branson wants in on Florida’s high speed rail fun

The Wall Street Journal originally reported last Friday that the U.K.’s Virgin Group, led by entrepreneur Richard Branson, plans to bid for Florida’s high speed rail line.

The story is picked up in today’s Financial Times:

Virgin confirmed it had joined the competition, with an official announcement expected later this week. “We’re interested in exciting opportunities in UK and overseas rail; this is one of them,” Virgin said. The group also has a 25 per cent stake in US low-cost airline Virgin America and is planning to launch commercial flights into space through its Virgin Galactic venture.

Richard Branson wants in on Florida’s high speed rail fun

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We have so many foreign companies fighting over this high-speed rail project. Where are the American proposals? This should be setting us ahead - Florida should become the rail building epicenter of North America. Instead we have nothing but imports because we can't make an effort.

You probably haven't realized that American conservative politicians have turned this country into a backward state. Appealing to the anti-government idiots without college degrees in Middle and Southern America is a recipe for this country's current downfall. Sad thing about it is that those doing the appealing, the super rich conservatives, could care less about those dummies in the sticks of this nation or great state of ours ie GOVERNOR-elect Rick Scott.

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We have so many foreign companies fighting over this high-speed rail project. Where are the American proposals? This should be setting us ahead - Florida should become the rail building epicenter of North America. Instead we have nothing but imports because we can't make an effort.

While I agree that there should be more American companies bidding on this project, I read somewhere that the international companies (especially Siemens, since they're already in Central Florida) would have all their production set in the US. So either way it would mean tons of jobs in all types of fields.

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While I agree that there should be more American companies bidding on this project, I read somewhere that the international companies (especially Siemens, since they're already in Central Florida) would have all their production set in the US. So either way it would mean tons of jobs in all types of fields.

I have heard the same thing. To use federal funds, the companies have to be here in the U.S. and build the trains. Most likely, the expertise will come from abroad and the manpower will come from the U.S.

And I think blaming conservatives is not very helpful or accurate.

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