MLS Soccer Stadium

[JFW657]

Saw a segment on Channel 9 this evening in which they reported that a group of Parramore residents and the Appearance Review Board are expressing concern over the new expanded stadium design and how it doesn't fit into the "historic nature" of the neighborhood.

Puh - lease.

Now there is some concern that this could possibly slow down the progress of getting the thing built. Sounds like more of the same old nonsense we always run into around here. A bunch of hand-wringing, frustrated, self-important art school graduates and decorators who couldn't get real jobs, want to foist their own backwards, regressive views of what looks good on everyone else and in this particular case, have teamed up with a group of the current favorite victims du jour.

Hoping nothing comes of this and they don't screw everything up.

http://m.wftv.com/news/news/local/city-board-raises-concerns-over-larger-orlando-cit/npgsM/

 

[dcluley98]

LOL, seriously?  From what I understand, the stadium is the exact same size/dimensions as the previous version that would seat 19,000, but with 3 of the corners filled in for more seats.  Where do these idiots come up with their "logic" on this stuff.  Why does the press give them a voice for such nonsense?  This town is a 3 ring circus of idiocy at times.

[HankStrong]

So are busted up lots, empty beer bottles, and trash called "historic nature" now?

[JFW657]

A couple of the quotes by these Appearance Review Board idiots are just too funny.

“You're trying to put a size 13 shoe in a 9 box. It doesn't fit, it's way too much. It really encroaches up against the streets, all the way around,” one board member said during a November meeting.

Oh my God!!! A building in downtown that comes all the way to the sidewalk??? It's insane!!!!!

“I'm really concerned about what this does to the Parramore neighborhood, and as some of you said, it really doesn't fit. It is not a welcoming facility to be plopped right in the middle of a residential, historic neighborhood," another member said at the meeting. 

Complete and utter nonsense. That area of Parramore is about as "residential" as OBT. The area surrounding the site... West Church and West Central, Terry, Parramore and Glenn Ln. are all commercial business areas.

Buncha clowns with nothing better to do I guess.

 

 

[RedStar25]

On 12/11/2015 at 9:51 PM, JFW657 said:

Saw a segment on Channel 9 this evening in which they reported that a group of Parramore residents and the Appearance Review Board are expressing concern over the new expanded stadium design and how it doesn't fit into the "historic nature" of the neighborhood.

Puh - lease.

Now there is some concern that this could possibly slow down the progress of getting the thing built. Sounds like more of the same old nonsense we always run into around here. A bunch of hand-wringing, frustrated, self-important art school graduates and decorators who couldn't get real jobs, want to foist their own backwards, regressive views of what looks good on everyone else and in this particular case, have teamed up with a group of the current favorite victims du jour.

Hoping nothing comes of this and they don't screw everything up.

http://m.wftv.com/news/news/local/city-board-raises-concerns-over-larger-orlando-cit/npgsM/

 

High Fives! 

Edited December 12, 2015 by RedStar25
Photo

[spenser1058]

Before saying anything else, although soccer has never really been my thing, Orlando City has totally won me over for their efforts to become a part of the community in a much more authentic way than the homophobes over at the Magic. That said, I'm more than a little discouraged by some of the posts here which suggest those in Parramore have no right to try and save what's left of their community. Yes, some of it is just political noise, and, since I'm white, I can't even begin to suggest the same passion about it as Orlando natives from the African-American community. But, despite the way the folks on the other side of Division Street have plundered the neighborhood for decades, there's still a lot of history there. To this day, Parramore and Callahan have an amazing amount of pedestrian activity that we swoon over in other neighborhoods, as well as great affordable restaurants, historic churches, interesting retail (if you've never checked out the Palmer Feed Store on W. Church St., you're missing a great adventure), not to mention what is rapidly becoming some of the last affordable housing downtown. For all those reasons and many others I really don't have standing to comment on, the good folks of Parramore have earned a place at the table as a stadium they never asked for is dropped in their midst.

Edited December 14, 2015 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

While what you're saying is true, the part of the Parramore neighborhood where the stadium is going up, is all commercial anyway. The residential parts (the actual "neighborhood") are on the other side of Church St to the south and Washington St to the north and will not be affected by it, other than to bring some decent jobs to within walking distance of those residential areas.

 

 

[spenser1058]

That, of course, is because of the ever-popular "demolition by neglect" strategy we're all too familiar with. Once again, those of us who really don't want our downtown to have the soulless sterility of I-Drive (Rich Crotty's infamous "Downtown Orange County") are told it's too late to save anything. At some point, we have to speak up. In this case, I think what Orlando City is doing is a good thing. But, if someone suggested in the 1980s leveling Eola Heights or Thornton Park for something like that (and those 'hoods weren't in much better shape then other than zoning was never as careless because, after all, those were white neighborhoods), I would have been screaming, too. In fact, we were screaming when developers wanted the freedom to level blocks of Eola Heights on lots that likely would have sat empty for almost 30 years like DuPont 2 did and then filled with MetroWest style apartments. There's also the issue of what COULD have been done with Parramore had there been the political will. Something like what OHA did with the WWII era housing at Robinson and Bumby. But, of course, that's never been the way it was approached because too many people were trying to get rich quick.

[JFW657]

Well I suppose if you want to go back 50+ years in order to chronicle what has transpired development wise on W. Church St and W. Central around Parramore, you might find a few examples of some houses being demolished in order to build the commercial properties that exist there now, but really, I think you'd probably have to go back closer to 60 or 70 years to arrive at the last time there was some semblance of an actual "neighborhood" there.

But then, what good would that do anyway? Speaking strictly in terms of what is there right now, there is nothing of any historic value being sacrificed or encroached upon by the soccer stadium.

And no, the kind of commercial encroachment that happened on the west side of downtown all those decades ago didn't happen in Eola Heights or Thornton Park as you said, but we can't go back and change the attitudes of society a generation or more ago. Besides, the property values were almost certainly higher in those east downtown neighborhoods, so the people who lived there had stronger representation in local govt simply because they had more financial clout which in turn, was because they paid higher property taxes. That was just the simple logic people used to make decisions back then and it wasn't questioned. 

And finally, do we really know what the quality and architectural value of any homes around Parramore back then had compared to the homes in Eola and Thornton? In comparing what kind of demolition and redevelopment occurred in the two areas and why, it's only fair to take into account the quality of the houses in one vs the other. I kind of doubt that Eola Heights and Thornton Park resembled whatever might have existed on W. Church. But if you drive through Parramore today, looking at the houses from that era which remain, I don't think you're going to find many that are on par with those in Eola and Thornton.

Anyway, not everything that occurred in the 40's thru the 70's came down to racism as seems to be the popular opinion nowadays.

 

 

 

[spenser1058]

Given that until the Jim Crow laws were repealed in the mid-1960s (and the after effects in things like school districts and housing patterns that persist today), racism was enforced by law in the South (including Orlando), your last paragraph is truly mind boggling. I'll simply leave it at that.

[JFW657]

Yes, this is not the forum to go on an SJW rant. 

 

[RedStar25]

12 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Given that until the Jim Crow laws were repealed in the mid-1960s (and the after effects in things like school districts and housing patterns that persist today), racism was enforced by law in the South (including Orlando), your last paragraph is truly mind boggling. I'll simply leave it at that.

And some people want to live in the past and still smear ashes upon their faces, wear sack clothes, and publicly decry prior sins and worries, all while living in the comfort of their eastern lake side condos. 

We get it. People screwed up in the past, but we are not the same people. We have an opportunity to clean up the code/zoning enforcement mess that is Parramore and create an actual viable neighborhood.   

There is so much vacant commercial space (in non-historic buildings), such low home ownership, and vast tracks of empty land why not start a-new? Lets create a real neighborhood. Save what can be saved (I was at Palmer's Feed Store on Saturday, which has also been rebuilt), but improve on what needs to be improved. If we can recreate "Historic" looking neighborhoods elsewhere in the city, why not in Parramore? 

However, I think it is inevitable that downtown's growth will spill over into Parramore. 

[spenser1058]

I agree completely, which is why all I suggested was that it's not unreasonable for those who have concerns have a place at the table. Meanwhile, it's important to remember that Parramore did not reach its current state due to immaculate conception but through failed policies we need to avoid in the future.

[RedStar25]

Haha is "Demmacualte" conception a thing? 

[HankStrong]

I don't care what color your skin is.  I am just opposed to junky areas of town being called historic as part of what was correctly ID'd as SJW acts.

[jack]

Parramore is pretty junky in its current condition. But Spencer is right, a lot of it is due to indirect and direct racism. There are a few historic buildings that should be maintained but most are not. That does not make it a social justice act, just a fact. 

 

 

[OrlandoMagicLions]

good progress

Edited December 16, 2015 by OrlandoMagicLions

[metal93]

Certainly if people have the time to study the map of Parramore and actually look at the building stock, there is actually something to save there. Some nice buildings that just need some TLC. Especially that commercial area on Parramore directly south of the stadium down to South St. Just fix up the current buildings that need it, infill the gaps, provide the right incentives for African-American business owners to set up shop, and you could really have a viable place - it might get to the point where supermarkets are no longer afraid to put a location in Parramore (hopefully done in right, not suburban-style), as such a thing is badly needed in a food desert like Parramore.

But the reality is that most of Parramore is broken up smaller neighborhoods separated by large clusters of empty lots, and consist largely of dilapidated or abandoned houses, and warehouse buildings - a lot of these buildings are just old, and simply being old does not qualify as historic. A bunch of old ugly warehouses and concrete box buildings could be demolished and little historical value would be lost, if any. There are some nice houses around but they're in the minority. What I assume is that the land set aside for Creative Village is for serious vertical development as Orlando has little options on where to expand the CBD. The empty land is already there and I don't really get why the residents of Parramore are so opposed to it. It's much better to have such highrise development concentrated in one place instead of sprawled out and further fragmenting the community, for those wishing to maintain Parramore. The rest of Parramore just needs infill in the form of mixed-income housing and more opportunities for business to set up. Because realistically, the place is never going to recover on its own without some kind of large scale intervention. The city just so happens to have plans for this - preserving the African-American community and putting in new developments that could hopefully revive the economy of Parramore, and I think they've found a healthy balance.

In hindsight, a lot of times it feels like a lot of arguments for saving Parramore have little or nothing to do with "historical preservation" or "neighborhood character" and everything to do with fears of rising property values and taxes. I find it hard to believe it when someone's arguing about historical preservation and I'm being shown a vacant lot.

Thread is starting to get a bit off topic at this point, I would add that the stadium progress is looking very good based on the pictures and new renderings I'm seeing. Hopefully next week I'll have the time and excuse to drive around there and check out how far the construction has progressed.

[OrlandoMagicLions]

A key factor the stadium brings to moving into the location it is is some sense of safety in the area. Right now, people are afraid to walk around Parramore/Church St. due to the mass numbers of homeless than wander the streets and panhandle. A multimillion dollar stadium placed right across the area will give people a more secure feel when walking along the nice sidewalks they upgraded in the area.

[nite owℓ]

On 12/11/2015 at 7:50 AM, HankStrong said:

So are busted up lots, empty beer bottles, and trash called "historic nature" now?

On 12/14/2015 at 6:47 PM, JFW657 said:

And finally, do we really know what the quality and architectural value of any homes around Parramore back then had compared to the homes in Eola and Thornton? In comparing what kind of demolition and redevelopment occurred in the two areas and why, it's only fair to take into account the quality of the houses in one vs the other. I kind of doubt that Eola Heights and Thornton Park resembled whatever might have existed on W. Church. But if you drive through Parramore today, looking at the houses from that era which remain, I don't think you're going to find many that are on par with those in Eola and Thornton.

Anyway, not everything that occurred in the 40's thru the 70's came down to racism as seems to be the popular opinion nowadays.

 

I think part of problem regarding Parramore's "historic" identity is the perspective in which the story is being told. If you speak to someone old enough to remember, they might recall a different narrative than those of us who are either too young or simply unaware of Parramore's historic identity. Usually Parramore's story is told from an outsider's perspective, which unfortunately is pretty common when it comes to black history in general. Has anyone ever visited the Well's Built museum? I haven't made my way over there yet, but I'm sure they would paint a different picture of Parramore's historic worth. I wasn't around back then so I'm probably not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but what I understand from research over time - Parramore used to be a decent black neighborhood since the money was kept within the community since black professionals of the time were relegated to black areas only. When housing discrimination laws came into effect, the people who could afford to leave for the suburbs did so, thus leaving behind a void.

That said, there are very small pockets of historic homes of similar architectural quality within Parramore that mirror that of the East side. (Orlando's Historic Landmarks, City of Orlando Historic Preservation Data w/addresses.) However, many wooden homes have not survived decades of neglect. Brick structures like the "pink" & gothic churches, retail and the old school facade are still standing. There are two residential streets that come to mind that still have some historic charm - West Concord Ave and Arlington St. The city and Habitat for Humanity renovated some of the homes which began to attract buyers of all colors & sexual orientations who recognized the potential of Parramore's revitalization. They are finally seeing the light at the end of a long dark tunnel of hard work & investment.

Again, regarding perspective, there are still people who view the Eastern portion of Downtown as unsafe/undesirable although many of us who actually live, work and play here would beg to differ. That said, let's not forget there were also areas of downtown around Lake Eola that had deteriorated akin to preset-day Parramore status as well - complete with druggies, prostitutes, boarded up neglected homes and homeless-havens (Tale of Two Neighborhoods, It's a Beautiful Day in the Gayborhood). I'm sure many from the suburbs scoffed at the idea of creating a "historic" Lake Eola heights district back in the 70's and 80's too, but look how far the neighborhood has come. Thank g-d for folks like Phil Rampy, Craig Ustler Sue MacNamara and the other nameless people who helped revitalize Thornton Park. Hopefully Parramore will see better days too.

Sorry for the long post since it may be off topic, but I thought I'd chime in to help provide a more balanced perspective. When I was looking to buy my first place years ago, I wanted to gather info on the city's future plans etc so that I would be getting the most bang for my buck if I was going to be stuck living in Orlando . That also led me to find out a little more about the untold history of Downtown Orlando so I did a lot of research on the history of Parramore and Thornton Park, old land/water contamination, etc.

 

 

[John Hargrove]

Very well said.

I'll admit that I'm one of those individuals that tends to only see the bad in it. It's hard not to -- you want to know that your friends and family are safe. You want to live in a place where walking outside after dark doesn't feel vulnerable or risky. And it bleeds over into the central business district quite often. Places like Pine Street between Orange and the tracks are so poorly lit that it genuinely feels dangerous at times. Because it is. I've been yelled at, followed home and threatened. And I'm a large man. So I just use Church Street after dark. It's better.

So, while I do admit to having a bias, let's not lose sight of what is a real issue with crime and poverty. You cannot fix that neighborhood without fixing some of the underlying problems with poverty, inequality and lack of investment in the people themselves. I think it's great to see new schools being built and roads being modernized. On the flip side, I doubt very greatly that saving a couple of run down buildings will do anything meaningful toward furthering the prosperity of the people living in the neighborhood.

Or perhaps I'm just exhausted. I'm certainly planning to move east from where I'm at when my lease is up.

Preferably somewhere in the greener shades (see image attachment).

 

 

[UngaBungalow]

Great map! Where'd you get this?

[John Hargrove]

1 hour ago, UngaBungalow said:

Great map! Where'd you get this?

That's from Trulia. Interactive version here: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Orlando-Florida/crime/

 

[AndyPok1]

I'd say there's simply more people in those red CBD areas than in those green areas.  There's no crime at Church and Summerlin because there's no reason for people to be there unless they live there.  There are bars and restaurants and destinations on Orange and Central.  Simply by virtue of having a business means there's going to be more crime.

[John Hargrove]

Fair point and it is definitely a contributing factor (as is the high rate of drunken brawls and everything else associated with a night club scene). I'm sure the crime rate of an empty field of grass would be excellent. Not sure that would help anyone, though.

There are other issues with those maps, as well. Particularly things like domestic violence which tend to be higher in poorer neighborhoods ... and have less of an "outward" effect on the neighborhood (at least in the short term.)

It would be useful to see the crime rate applied to population density, filtered for crimes which affect everyone, and applied to population density. So .. crimes per capita by type.