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Jernigan

E. Colonial between 436 and Primrose

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On 10/19/2014 at 9:36 AM, Jernigan said:

Wow that would be pretty massive for an Ace, no?

While I was in Orlando, I installed security for a 35K sq ft Ace.

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I had jobs as a teenager in both the Phar-Mor in that shopping center (oops, I dated myself!), and a Sound Warehouse next door, and remember going to quite a few movies at the General Cinema there.  That shopping center has never been fully leased since it was opened in the mid-1980's.  The first Barnes and Noble was in there for a stretch in the mid-90's, but I always remembered large empty storefronts surrounding it.  It definitely needs to be bulldozed and replaced with apartments; given the slow death of retail in the area, I don't see any kind of big-box retailing in its future.

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How long has Sweet Tomatoes been there?  It feels like forever.  I remember eating at the TGI Friday's there, but it got bulldozed during the recession.

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7 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

I moved here in the late 90s and Sweet Tomatoes has been there since I've been here.

It was the Soup Exchange first when they opened in the 80’s, and then became Sweet Tomatoes later when the companies merged at some point, iirc.

I was bummed because Soup Exchange was a tad more upscale and had higher quality offerings than ST. I liked Morrison’s a lot better than Piccadilly, too, and also ended up on the losing side of that combo. 

As SONY discovered with the Betamax, the better product often loses out to the cheaper alternative.

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On 1/3/2019 at 10:08 PM, codypet said:

Holy crap! Look at that dude's hair!  Is he an Elvis impersonator on the weekends?

I think so....

dontbecruel.jpg

:shades:

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4 hours ago, jliv said:

I had jobs as a teenager in both the Phar-Mor in that shopping center (oops, I dated myself!), and a Sound Warehouse next door, and remember going to quite a few movies at the General Cinema there.  That shopping center has never been fully leased since it was opened in the mid-1980's.  The first Barnes and Noble was in there for a stretch in the mid-90's, but I always remembered large empty storefronts surrounding it.  It definitely needs to be bulldozed and replaced with apartments; given the slow death of retail in the area, I don't see any kind of big-box retailing in its future.

I had forgotten completely about Phar-Mor.

Kinda clever name when you think about it.... (Phar-Mor = Far More).

OK, maybe not. <_<

I don't know about apartments there though. The heavy traffic around there would make it a PITA getting in and out.

I'd like to see retail dining and entertainment make a come back around there.

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34 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I had forgotten completely about Phar-Mor.

Kinda clever name when you think about it.... (Phar-Mor = Far More).

OK, maybe not. <_<

I don't know about apartments there though. The heavy traffic around there would make it a PITA getting in and out.

I'd like to see retail dining and entertainment make a come back around there.

It’s kind of a no man’s land now. The Baldwin Park folks are more likely to stay in their ‘hood or go someplace tony like Park Ave.

The Audubon Park crowd these days are too cool for school and more likely to hang out on Corrine Drive or the ViMi District.

The Azalea Parkers can find plenty on 436 so why fight the traffic. The Dover Shores crowd now has all the stuff popping up in the Hourglass District.

That whole strip worked because of the Navy base (plus the nearby retired military folks) and Fashion Square’s days as the major mall in town. I wonder if it really has a constituency anymore. I guess we’ll find out.

 

 

 

Edited by spenser1058

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It’s kind of a no man’s land now. The Baldwin Park folks are more likely to stay in their ‘hood or go someplace tony like Park Ave.
The Audubon Park crowd these days are too cool for school and more likely to hang out on Corrine Drive or the ViMi District.
The Azalea Parkers can find plenty on 436 so why fight the traffic. The Dover Shores crowd now has all the stuff popping up in the Hourglass District.
That whole strip worked because of the Navy base (plus the nearby retired military folks) and Fashion Square’s days as the major mall in town. I wonder if it really has a constituency anymore. I guess we’ll find out.
 


The funny thing is, the rental revenue from those lots where the shopping centers are built, along the airport property, mostly funds the airport’s operations. It goes back to a thread I started a couple of years ago: that airport has little value to Orlando outside of the land it sits on. It’s strikes me as mostly a Cessna parking lot for wealthy local doctors. You could address the Orlando affordable housing problem, the need to a signature urban park the growing blight in the area, and shore up
Orlando’s finances by building a couple of Baldwin Parks on that land.


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2 minutes ago, jliv said:

 


The funny thing is, the rental revenue from those lots where the shopping centers are built, along the airport property, mostly funds the airport’s operations. It goes back to a thread I started a couple of years ago: that airport has little value to Orlando outside of the land it sits on. It’s strikes me as mostly a Cessna parking lot for wealthy local doctors. You could address the Orlando affordable housing problem, the need to a signature urban park the growing blight in the area, and shore up
Orlando’s finances by building a couple of Baldwin Parks on that land.


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The doctors, lawyers (read any John Grisham novel to find out how big a deal private jets are to them) and bankers who use Herndon live next door and work with Buddy and the city commissioners. Since they love it being so close and have the clout to keep it, the chances of closing it are in the low single digits.

There are indeed major possibilities for parks and housing around Lake Underhill. Politically, however, Donald Trump is more likely to become a Bernie Bro. 

I think your idea about apartments around the periphery is probably the most likely but as JFW notes about the traffic it would have to be coordinated with some sort of BRT to keep it from constant gridlock.

Personally, I’m glad I don’t go east of Primrose on Colonial anymore. Thar’ be monsters!

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I had always heard that Herndon/Orlando Executive Airport was a boon to Orlando because it's close proximity to downtown was very convenient to people flying in to do business there. That was always the story, anyway.

I still think a mix of retail, dining and entertainment could work in that area as well as it could anywhere else. I don't think the residents of individual neighborhoods exclusively shop and do business in certain enclaves due to some kind of herd instinct or just on the basis of proximity. People will go shop and dine where there are stores and restaurants they want to shop and dine at.

Get the right businesses to locate there and they will come.

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55 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I had always heard that Herndon/Orlando Executive Airport was a boon to Orlando because it's close proximity to downtown was very convenient to people flying in to do business there. That was always the story, anyway.

I still think a mix of retail, dining and entertainment could work in that area as well as it could anywhere else. I don't think the residents of individual neighborhoods exclusively shop and do business in certain enclaves due to some kind of herd instinct or just on the basis of proximity. People will go shop and dine where there are stores and restaurants they want to shop and dine at.

Get the right businesses to locate there and they will come.

I guess that’s right, but given that OFS and the surrounding area began to decline with the base closing and then the minor recession in the early 2000s and has been going in one direction since then, I confess I haven’t a clue what the turnaround might be after about 20 years.

At first, everyone was convinced Baldwin Park would change things. For whatever reason, that hasn’t been the case.

In my own situation, we used to go to the Soup Exchange, Friday’s, Phar-Mor and the GCC (and B&N before it moved), but I haven’t gone east of Primrose since Sears at OFS botched the Lands’ End rollout (instead of creating a separate area for it, they just mixed it in with the regular Sears apparel items and then decided the ‘hood’s demographics wouldn’t buy it anyway).

I can’t say that my life is any poorer for the decision. There’s a Publix and a theater downtown, our indie restaurants are better than chains and the Target in SoDo is better than the ersatz Gold Triangle version at Maguire. The other folks I know around TP pretty much feel the same.

Maybe Lucky’s will be the catalyst to change things (if it ever opens.)

Speaking of GCC, who could ever forget the snappy little tune between the previews and the actual movie? It’s been bouncing around my head ever since I went to the Parkwood Cinema every Saturday as a kid:

 

Edited by spenser1058
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I suppose online shopping has done as much to hurt malls like OFS as anything. Hard for brick and mortar stores with all their extra overhead, to compete with online stores that only have warehouses and stock pickers to pay for. 

But people still enjoy getting out of the house and going somewhere.

Hopefully the right combination of things to attract them can be found for OFS.

That General Cinema thing really brings back old memories. Always liked that.

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I suppose online shopping has done as much to hurt malls like OFS as anything. Hard for brick and mortar stores with all their extra overhead, to compete with online stores that only have warehouses and stock pickers to pay for. 
But people still enjoy getting out of the house and going somewhere.
Hopefully the right combination of things to attract them can be found for OFS.
That General Cinema thing really brings back old memories. Always liked that.


I’d see a movie at that cinema (or at the nicer AMC) and have a yogurt at TCBY afterwards. I’d buy my records and cassettes at Peaches, and get my concert tix at the Infinite Mushroom at the Colonial Plaza Mall. Jeans from Chess King or the Gap. That WAS teenage life in Orlando in the 1980’s!


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20 minutes ago, jliv said:

 


I’d see a movie at that cinema (or at the nicer AMC) and have a yogurt at TCBY afterwards. I’d buy my records and cassettes at Peaches, and get my concert tix at the Infinite Mushroom at the Colonial Plaza Mall. Jeans from Chess King or the Gap. That WAS teenage life in Orlando in the 1980’s!


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Ummmm.... just concert tickets? <eg>

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1 hour ago, jliv said:

I’d see a movie at that cinema (or at the nicer AMC) and have a yogurt at TCBY afterwards. I’d buy my records and cassettes at Peaches, and get my concert tix at the Infinite Mushroom at the Colonial Plaza Mall. Jeans from Chess King or the Gap. That WAS teenage life in Orlando in the 1980’s!

 

As a teenager in the 70's, my mall and main movie theater was Merritt Square Mall and The Merritt Six Theater. There was also a nice older theater on the E. Merritt Island Causeway (520) called The Barn Theater. Sat right off the road and looked like a big red barn. They tore it down in the 80's to build a Walmart. Wish I could find a picture of it. Had a drive in right next door. 

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10 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

As a teenager in the 70's, my mall and main movie theater was Merritt Square Mall and The Merritt Six Theater. There was also a nice older theater on the E. Merritt Island Causeway (520) called The Barn Theater. Sat right off the road and looked like a big red barn. They tore it down in the 80's to build a Walmart. Wish I could find a picture of it. Had a drive in right next door. 

Ooooh, I remember that.

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5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

In my own situation, we used to go to the Soup Exchange, Friday’s, Phar-Mor and the GCC (and B&N before it moved), but I haven’t gone east of Primrose since Sears at OFS botched the Lands’ End rollout (instead of creating a separate area for it, they just mixed it in with the regular Sears apparel items and then decided the ‘hood’s demographics wouldn’t buy it anyway).

I can’t say that my life is any poorer for the decision. There’s a Publix and a theater downtown, our indie restaurants are better than chains and the Target in SoDo is better than the ersatz Gold Triangle version at Maguire. The other folks I know around TP pretty much feel the same.

I wanted to argue this, but I really can't.  Some people rave about Sea Thai, but I found it average.  Izziban is fun like once every two years or so.  Beyond that, only reason I head that way is Party City and the rare Bed, Bath, and Beyond visit

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9 minutes ago, codypet said:

Madness!  Don't you all eat at the culinary masterpiece that is Burger King?

The only fast food I’ve eaten in the last two decades (except at Disney) has been a Pub Sub.

Cheap burgers just don’t do it for me anymore (for the most part, they never really did - my fast food addiction in my 20s was Captain D’s country style fish).

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Another way to look at this: if the area east of Primrose is in a 20+ year slump, why is it that the area to the west is prospering?

Look specifically at Colonial Plaza. Especially after OFS had its 1988 redo, it was CP that was faltering.

Today, it’s the other way ‘round. I’m not a fan of big boxes generally and I regret that the city funds used for demolition of the CP Mall didn’t require something more creative.

Even I frequent Total Wine and get tires at Goodyear. Treasure hunt retailer Marshall’s is all the rage (I’m much too OCD a shopper to understand it, but I seem to be in a minority).

I would mention Barnes & Noble, but between OPL and my Kindle, I haven’t been there in years and have no idea how it’s doing.

It’s even upped its relevance for the younger crowd by adding a Five Below.

Not only has CP thrived, but the surrounding Milk District has all sorts of hipster cred. Add in landmarks like Beefy King and the new food truck park just across Primrose (not to mention Coytown across Colonial  has almost no empty storefronts), and the whole mishmash seems to work splendidly.

Compare and contrast as you like.

Edited by spenser1058

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It is very interesting to me as well. It is a case study of urban decay and renewal to see the decline of Colonial Plaza and the rise of Fashion Square, only to see the tables turn in the next decade. 

How does this happen? Consumer trends? Location? Probably location and cheap rent. Fashion Square killed itself by trying to be too fancy and being in the middle of everything but close to nothing. 

We will see how the next cycle turns. It's like Game of Thrones factions, but house Colonial seems to be very resilient and up for the challenges.  

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Big Box centers like the new and "improved" CP, where parking is located in the  center of an outer ring of stores, are popular everywhere, not just E. Colonial Dr in Orlando, Fl. That's why the developer decided to replace the old dead, third rate, slap-dash mall with that particular retail concept, rather than do another indoor mall or some other "more creative" development. It was a new concept at the time and had/has a proven track record of success. Successful retail centers result in increased tax revenue for local govt and increased economic activity all around. Which is of course, the whole idea.

The problem with FS is the same problem most other malls are facing... it's a mall.

IMO, the reason the whole mall concept is dying out, is because there are just too many other options for the kinds of merchandise you find in malls anymore.

So, why is CP doing well while FS is not? I think it's because of the types of businesses located within them and the merchandise they sell. FS, like so many other malls nowadays, is pretty much all apparel stores. Mostly women's apparel. There are so many places to buy women's apparel these days, the higher end stores that locate in malls just can't compete. 

CP on the other hand, has discount stores, an office supply store, a hobby and craft  store, a book store and a few others. I think it's the nature of what they sell there that is what people would rather get in their cars and drive to rather than buy online, as opposed to going to a mall for.

I guess Millennia is an outlier because of it's chic factor.

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26 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Big Box centers like the new and "improved" CP, where parking is located in the  center of an outer ring of stores, are popular everywhere, not just E. Colonial Dr in Orlando, Fl. That's why the developer decided to replace the old dead, third rate, slap-dash mall with that particular retail concept, rather than do another indoor mall or some other "more creative" development. It was a new concept at the time and had/has a proven track record of success. Successful retail centers result in increased tax revenue for local govt and increased economic activity all around. Which is of course, the whole idea.

The problem with FS is the same problem most other malls are facing... it's a mall.

IMO, the reason the whole mall concept is dying out, is because there are just too many other options for the kinds of merchandise you find in malls anymore.

So, why is CP doing well while FS is not? I think it's because of the types of businesses located within them and the merchandise they sell. FS, like so many other malls nowadays, is pretty much all apparel stores. Mostly women's apparel. There are so many places to buy women's apparel these days, the higher end stores that locate in malls just can't compete. 

CP on the other hand, has discount stores, an office supply store, a hobby and craft  store, a book store and a few others. I think it's the nature of what they sell there that is what people would rather get in their cars and drive to rather than buy online, as opposed to going to a mall for.

I guess Millennia is an outlier because of it's chic factor.

Class A malls and Class B Malls tend to still be doing fine as the higher income folks still find value in the customer service mall stores tend to offer.

Below that, malls targeted (more on that in a moment) to middle and lower income shoppers have lost their markets to big box and online shopping.

I mention Target because their makeovers are increasingly including the kinds of stores-within-a-store and visual merchandising displays that used to be the province of mid-range department stores (not surprising-Target, unlike Kmart and Walmart, never was a dime store - it evolved from the Dayton’s department store).

The results? Not only are Sears and JCPenney in a downward spiral, now even Macy’s is in trouble while Target cleaned up for the holidays.

My question for JFW? You’re absolutely right about OFS being an anachronism but none of the strip centers to the east are doing all that well, either. So what is the X factor that’s working west of Maguire (I assume the Target is still OK) but not east?

My guess is it maybe, even if Bumby and Colonial don’t make CP/Coytown walkcentric, they’re still more accessible to the nearby neighborhoods than the poorly planned retail strip to the east. Just a guess, though.

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Honestly, they are both crap, but FS is destinational crap, predicated upon and defined by somebody parking and trying to go inside and deal with all that crap for a while, while CP is Task- Oriented crap, where you go to your (as JFW pointed out) very specific and specialized big box consumpton center, park your crap-box as close as you can to the crappy entrance, go look at the crap, buy the crap, throw the crap in your car, and get the hell out of there. 

crap. 

This may or may not be funnier now that the offensive language filter edited it. hahaha. 

Edited by dcluley98

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