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Jernigan

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Things won't get really good until SunRail and LYNX share their data openly.   They really don't need to be in the app-building business in the first place considering how many good apps are available (try downloading Transit and use it to find a LYMMO) and how many local developers could make us more customized options. Echo Interaction had a SunRail app up the day the train started running...they just couldn't provide real time tracking because of data sharing 

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On 6/2/2017 at 4:54 PM, spenser1058 said:

This probably won't change anything tomorrow but Gov. Rick Scott has signed HB299 making Brevard County part of the Central FL Expressway Authority. Slowly but surely their amazing infrastructure is going to become a more integral part of the region.

I'm also guessing that their extra vote will eventually speed up the extension of the East-West (FL408) to I-95.

I don't know. I am not much of a wealth redistributor (I know shocking) but every time Orange County expands, it loses it's power. The 408 is the most profitable leg in central Florida. When it went regional, it allowed lesser roads to access all of that excess cash. 

 

I know I am outside the norm but I believe everyone should pay their own way. 

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10 hours ago, jack said:

I don't know. I am not much of a wealth redistributor (I know shocking) but every time Orange County expands, it loses it's power. The 408 is the most profitable leg in central Florida. When it went regional, it allowed lesser roads to access all of that excess cash. 

 

I know I am outside the norm but I believe everyone should pay their own way. 

You bring up excellent points. There are definitely going to be tradeoffs and Brevard is a MUCH more Republican county than Orange, Osceola or even Seminole these days. So I guess we wait and see how it shakes out. 

Ironically, this picks up a battle from the 60s. Sentinel publisher Martin Andersen, one of O-town's prime movers back then, engineered the "Bithlo Cut Off" (FL 520) and the Bee Line (FL 528) and pushed for FTU to go east (did you know it almost went where Wekiva Springs State Park is?) in order to bring Orlando and Brevard into each other's orbits.

A big driver was to get Brevard readers to subscribe to the Sentinel. Instead, an upstart named "Today" won out and ummmm, launched the Gannett (USA Today) empire. (A great tidbit to roll out when people try to tell you we have no history.)

Edited by spenser1058
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2 hours ago, jack said:

I don't know. I am not much of a wealth redistributor (I know shocking) but every time Orange County expands, it loses it's power. The 408 is the most profitable leg in central Florida. When it went regional, it allowed lesser roads to access all of that excess cash. 

 

I know I am outside the norm but I believe everyone should pay their own way. 

While I'm outside the norm in the same regard, the question of course is what to do with that excess cash? Eliminate tolls? Obviously we have LOTS of road problems in the area, and while other routes may not be profitable, they are still critical to our transportation network. It seems inevitable as long as the government is involved in transportation (and even beyond that) that some roads will be profitable and subsidize the routes. Well, I guess if we get deeper into the problem, its a big cause of urban sprawl, for better or worse.

It does happen in the private sector too. See loss leaders. And for those shoppers who are willing to travel around, take advantage of them, and then combine them with coupons, rebate apps, etc... there is a subset of customers that businesses lose money on.

I personally would be for converting the roads to have free and variable tolling express lanes if warranted (like I-4 will be and I-95 in South Florida), and increasing the gas tax to make up for it, which I feel will help promote buying more fuel efficient cars thus helping our environment as well. But right now, the public seems to prefer more tolls to gas tax hikes.

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The public hates tolls and raising the gas tax. Politicians think it is easier for the former. 

 

I would like to see a decrease on the tolls slightly with a small increase on the gas tax. Unfortunately, the revenue cannot be used from the tolls on other projects. Whatever the case, they should not use the revenue to subsidize a new road that creates more sprawl. 

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Actually, it has very little to do with public preference. While a subset of those who unfortunately tend to have a high voter turnout are opposed to tax increases of any kind (see Doug Guetzloe and the "Ax the Tax" crowd that held our local infrastructure needs hostage for 20 years), in fact it's government that abandoned the public on this.

Why? Profit-making companies lobby governments to privatize public projects for huge profits. Generally, "conservative" governments are most susceptible but not always. Although student loans, for-profit universities and Lexus Lane highway projects all mostly made victims of their recipients and were right-wing boondoggles, Democratic cities like Chicago and Birmingham also fell prey to private banking schemes to shore up parking and sewer systems that ended up being total debacles.

Almost always, the straightforward way is the best way. Determine the need, determine the most economical way to pay for it and proceed.

With road projects, this is not a new debate. The interstate system went untolled  thanks largely to Republican president Dwight Eisenhower.

It's also untrue that voters oppose taxes when they see value. A very red county like Duval (Jacksonville) happily approved a referendum to detoll their bridges in exchange for a sales tax increase. Further, they've been really unhappy regarding FDOT's proposals for Now attempting to retoll those roads with Lexus Lanes.

In the end, it all goes back to whom you vote for. Elections matter.

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I do think that the state needs to do a better job of differentiating between toll lanes and express lanes.   Toll lanes traditionally need to just pay off their costs/cover operation - express lanes need to use price to guarantee throughout to motorists.  

Transparency of revenue and uses are important in both of course 

Edited by Jernigan
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On 6/5/2017 at 0:05 PM, spenser1058 said:

Actually, it has very little to do with public preference. While a subset of those who unfortunately tend to have a high voter turnout are opposed to tax increases of any kind (see Doug Guetzloe and the "Ax the Tax" crowd that held our local infrastructure needs hostage for 20 years), in fact it's government that abandoned the public on this.

Why? Profit-making companies lobby governments to privatize public projects for huge profits. Generally, "conservative" governments are most susceptible but not always. Although student loans, for-profit universities and Lexus Lane highway projects all mostly made victims of their recipients and were right-wing boondoggles, Democratic cities like Chicago and Birmingham also fell prey to private banking schemes to shore up parking and sewer systems that ended up being total debacles.

Almost always, the straightforward way is the best way. Determine the need, determine the most economical way to pay for it and proceed.

With road projects, this is not a new debate. The interstate system went untolled  thanks largely to Republican president Dwight Eisenhower.

It's also untrue that voters oppose taxes when they see value. A very red county like Duval (Jacksonville) happily approved a referendum to detoll their bridges in exchange for a sales tax increase. Further, they've been really unhappy regarding FDOT's proposals for Now attempting to retoll those roads with Lexus Lanes.

In the end, it all goes back to whom you vote for. Elections matter.

Its all about perception. The thing with tolls is all the people who don't feel they'll use the toll road very often are very happy to have tolls rather then a sales tax or gas tax increase or whatnot. Then when your offering to build a new road with tolls, people feel they can shunpike them... while they don't like tolls, they're generally happy with that... until they feel they can no longer avoid them and they are now paying this huge extra bill. Then the prospect of a half a penny sales tax sounds better, because... whats half a penny on the sales tax? Nobody knows what that costs them individually... Thats why these "half a penny" sales tax campaigns are so effective. It just sounds like so little money, and its getting rid of a real, concrete toll cost.

I personally really like the lexus lanes and don't think they're a boondoggle at all... it provides a great choice, and my understanding is the lexus lanes, where implemented so far, are managing to cover the entire cost of the road maintenance for not just the express lanes themselves, but the entire roadway where they are located (at least so far in Florida, I know some other states have issues where nobody is using them). Also our student loan debacle seems its on the left-wing side, but the point is still well taken as you could easily replace that with another right-wind boondoggle. Private-public partnerships are great... but only if the incentive structure for the private corporation is setup to match the public interest at hand, which is really tough to do. Its completely counterproductive when it doesn't (see private prisons)

 

 

On 6/5/2017 at 11:42 AM, jack said:

The public hates tolls and raising the gas tax. Politicians think it is easier for the former. 

 

I would like to see a decrease on the tolls slightly with a small increase on the gas tax. Unfortunately, the revenue cannot be used from the tolls on other projects. Whatever the case, they should not use the revenue to subsidize a new road that creates more sprawl. 

The possibility of an increase of the gas tax is so hated by the public that several governments are considering per-mile fees and other new fees that require new systems to keep track of them. The threat of $4/gallon gas again is just flat out very "scary" to the american public, even if they end up paying the same amount another way (tolls, per mile fees, etc). Its just such a visible fee. Tolls, on the other hand, especially now they're often collected by Sunpass or Pay by Plate, and aren't combined with any other product, just don't seem that high for most people.

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I have mixed feelings on the express lanes. While I think dynamic pricing is a good idea, I hate the idea of it covering the entire budget. That is what the gas tax is for. 

 

But you all can ignore me, I am a curmudgeon. 

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Gas tax is already antiquated and doesn't cover the cost of maintaining the roads and bridges that we have.  Cars are more fuel efficient than ever and the gas tax is a rate not a percentage of price.  So when gas is more expensive, less is consumed and less tax is collected.   

The most fair thing would be a Vehicle Miles Travelled (VMT) tax but it puts ideologies at odds because on one hand it's a user fee and on the other hand it would require some form of government insight into your travel behavior.  We can't even handle red light cams.

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Electric cars throw everything out of sorts. It would probably be a combo of vehicle registration taxes and VMT. Outside of that, general fund revenue. VMT seems so unrealistic right now but who knows in the future. 

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Electric cars + auto pilot is going to change our entire conversation on this. Highly efficient autonomous vehicles could completely re-imagine transit. Imagine if transit picked you up at your door, and as soon as it dropped you off at your destination it picks up someone else. 24/7, point-to-point continuous transit that scales up and down automatically during rising demand and fall. It will change the world.

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2 hours ago, castorvx said:

Electric cars + auto pilot is going to change our entire conversation on this. Highly efficient autonomous vehicles could completely re-imagine transit. Imagine if transit picked you up at your door, and as soon as it dropped you off at your destination it picks up someone else. 24/7, point-to-point continuous transit that scales up and down automatically during rising demand and fall. It will change the world.

Exactly - I see there being a very minor gap, if any, between the shift to electric and the shift to autonomous vehicles.  When you're hailing your auto-Uber, and paying either per-service or on a subscription model, the infrastructure taxes will be built into the pricing model.

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11 hours ago, Jernigan said:

Gas tax is already antiquated and doesn't cover the cost of maintaining the roads and bridges that we have.  Cars are more fuel efficient than ever and the gas tax is a rate not a percentage of price.  So when gas is more expensive, less is consumed and less tax is collected.   

The most fair thing would be a Vehicle Miles Travelled (VMT) tax but it puts ideologies at odds because on one hand it's a user fee and on the other hand it would require some form of government insight into your travel behavior.  We can't even handle red light cams.

I disagree with that, as not only vehicles do the same amount of damage to the roadway. Trucks and larger vehicles have a larger impact on both the road and environment, so a gas tax actually very effectively chargers those users more money and encourages adoption of more efficient vehicles. Needless to say, the gas tax needed to keep up with the cost to maintain the roads, which would continue to encourage adoption of more efficient vehicles. Electric vehicles, at this point, really are insignificant... I would get rid of the tax credit for them so that money can be put into roads as well and let the higher gas tax be the benefit for them.

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I think people are overstating the impact of autonomous vehicles. Realistically, people will still own private cars that will return home when the owner is dropped off, or drive around until the owner is ready. Either way, the roads will stay packed. 

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3 hours ago, jack said:

I think people are overstating the impact of autonomous vehicles. Realistically, people will still own private cars that will return home when the owner is dropped off, or drive around until the owner is ready. Either way, the roads will stay packed. 

The immediate question is going to be electric cars and how to tax those properly for infrastructure. Self-driving will be after that and probably mostly figured out by how we sell and charge electric vehicles.

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On 6/3/2017 at 8:32 AM, spenser1058 said:

More on this from Florida politics.com:

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/239387-brevard-county-join-central-florida-expressway-authority

I like the mention of greater interdependence between the Space Coast and Orlando. It doesn't really matter, but it's fun to dream of adding Brevard's half million or so folks to the MSA and, ummmm, rocketing us into the top 20 without breaking a sweat.

I agree totally. 

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I will not be at meeting,but I also would LOVE a trolley line DT. Prefer MODERN but will take other cities vintage cars as well.I just think a trolley system will be more attractive and inviting for people to WANT to ride than the current Lymmo line. Simply put, it just LOOKS cooler so people will probably want to use it more. I also just think it feels more "big city".

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On 6/6/2017 at 11:24 PM, castorvx said:

Electric cars + auto pilot is going to change our entire conversation on this. Highly efficient autonomous vehicles could completely re-imagine transit. Imagine if transit picked you up at your door, and as soon as it dropped you off at your destination it picks up someone else. 24/7, point-to-point continuous transit that scales up and down automatically during rising demand and fall. It will change the world.

But you can do that with human drivers now.

I think any advancement that takes human judgment completely out of the equation is or can be bad for society for many reasons.  People need jobs, for one.  And BTW, the AGT at OIA which is automated- and on a rail to boot- has crapped out several times.  And one of those times the thing stopped on a dime (30mph to zero) hurling an unauthorized rider through the plate glass window.

UPS has a huge logistics department.  Human drivers.  Very efficient.  You don't need auto pilot; just better logistics management.

Think about it...whatever field you happen to work in, as soon as "they" say they can replace you with a machine, see how much that stings.  So much for your degree or trade.  I don't want to be part of that brave new world, because there won't be any people in it if you follow that logic to its conclusion. 

#skynet

 

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That new Amazon center will surely not be hiring fork-ops. Autonomous forks and item retrieval robots are actually old technology. I think the idea of automate/robotisize what you can, have humans do what they can't until a better robot comes along has been the trend for a time. The tricky bit is finding a life model that includes a workless society.

 

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On 6/8/2017 at 2:00 PM, jrs2 said:

But you can do that with human drivers now.

I think any advancement that takes human judgment completely out of the equation is or can be bad for society for many reasons.  People need jobs, for one.  And BTW, the AGT at OIA which is automated- and on a rail to boot- has crapped out several times.  And one of those times the thing stopped on a dime (30mph to zero) hurling an unauthorized rider through the plate glass window.

Its important to point out that the AGT was in manual mode when that happened.   In fact I believe the unauthorized person was driving it when he wasn't even supposed to be in there.

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On 6/8/2017 at 2:00 PM, jrs2 said:

But you can do that with human drivers now.

I think any advancement that takes human judgment completely out of the equation is or can be bad for society for many reasons.  People need jobs, for one.  And BTW, the AGT at OIA which is automated- and on a rail to boot- has crapped out several times.  And one of those times the thing stopped on a dime (30mph to zero) hurling an unauthorized rider through the plate glass window.

UPS has a huge logistics department.  Human drivers.  Very efficient.  You don't need auto pilot; just better logistics management.

Think about it...whatever field you happen to work in, as soon as "they" say they can replace you with a machine, see how much that stings.  So much for your degree or trade.  I don't want to be part of that brave new world, because there won't be any people in it if you follow that logic to its conclusion. 

#skynet

 

It can and will happen. Technology wipes out millions of jobs every generation. It's inevitable. You can't stop it.

The trick is building systems (at the government level or otherwise) to help transition these people into other jobs. We are all better for it. The luxury we live in today is owed to it.

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28 minutes ago, castorvx said:

It can and will happen. Technology wipes out millions of jobs every generation. It's inevitable. You can't stop it.

The trick is building systems (at the government level or otherwise) to help transition these people into other jobs. We are all better for it. The luxury we live in today is owed to it.

And millions of jobs are also created by new technologies as well... and we demand lots of new service once prices come down. We're getting more personal shoppers now than ever, and more people are hiring people to do things more frequently, like maintaining landscaping, pools, etc.... more and bigger theme parks, etc. Its an endless cycle

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