Orlando Transit

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

Shades of old HSR.

Nah...

Old HSR was a commitment from Obama with nothing else- maybe a Disney commitment; and Mica calling the Tampa leg a "dog" and Medicare Rick setting up his golf swing stance to knock it back to DC.

This plan has BL's existing system and plan morphing to the new route with partners Universal and the County and FDOT and those pledges.

Shades, maybe...but maybe just shades with much more support and $$$ and infrastructure backing it.

[shardoon]

Nothing happens without the mouse. If they don't like it, it won't happen because like it or not, a Disney station is the only way it's profitable. 

[codypet]

13 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Nah...

Old HSR was a commitment from Obama with nothing else- maybe a Disney commitment; and Mica calling the Tampa leg a "dog" and Medicare Rick setting up his golf swing stance to knock it back to DC.

This plan has BL's existing system and plan morphing to the new route with partners Universal and the County and FDOT and those pledges.

Shades, maybe...but maybe just shades with much more support and $$$ and infrastructure backing it.

It was a little more than that in 2010.  That said trying to get the mouse's coordination was like pulling teeth at the time, but permits were filed and my understanding was DBoMs were expressing interest and willing to bring money to the table.

[spenser1058]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

It was a little more than that in 2010.  That said trying to get the mouse's coordination was like pulling teeth at the time, but permits were filed and my understanding was DBoMs were expressing interest and willing to bring money to the table.

Disney has become much more agnostic in the Chapek era about people getting to them. Brightline may need Disney but it’s much less true that Disney needs Brightline.

In the age of Harry Potter, Disney found out that they remained the most visited parks despite anything Universal or anyone else did. The angst of the Eisner era about keeping folks in the Disney bubble has largely abated (ironically, it’s been that way in SoCal pretty much from the beginning).

Tbh, Brightline may not even be the best way to get to Disney from OIA. Once you arrive on Disney property, you, your family and all your luggage still have to get to your resort (did we mention that WDW is the size of San Francisco?)

If the Brightline station is adjacent to Disney Springs, you and your family could schlep all your luggage on Disney motorcoaches not designed to accommodate that. A station any further south toward I4 may not even have that. If you’re going to need a Lyft, Uber or Minnie Van to get to your actual destination anyway, why not just do it once at OIA rather than changing midstream?

Edited May 6, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

29 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Disney has become much more agnostic in the Chapek era about people getting to them. Brightline may need Disney but it’s much less true that Disney needs Brightline.

In the age of Harry Potter, Disney found out that they remained the most visited parks despite anything Universal or anyone else did. The angst of the Eisner era about keeping folks in the Disney bubble has largely abated (ironically, it’s been that way in SoCal pretty much from the beginning).

Tbh, Brightline may not even be the best way to get to Disney from OIA. Once you arrive on Disney property, you, your family and all your luggage still have to get to your resort (did we mention that WDW is the size of San Francisco?)

If the Brightline station is adjacent to Disney Springs, you and your family could schlep all your luggage on Disney motorcoaches not designed to accommodate that. A station any further south toward I4 may not even have that. If you’re going to need a Lyft, Uber or Minnie Van to get to your actual destination anyway, why not just do it once at OIA rather than changing midstream?

Maybe BL realizes that...you know about Disney not really needing them so much.  So, for BL, if they have OCCC/Universal + Disney, they're assured of certain ridership numbers on that leg in case Disney people just cab it to the property or whatever.

A BL station at Disney would kind of have to be adjacent to Diz Springs I think b/c of that huge bus transfer station they set up there already.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

This gets done with or without Disney. That's a bottom line. As long as that sales tax passes my that being said, business journal just put an article stating that Universal is willing to donate land and contribute up to 125 million for a bright line/ sun rail station along the international drive corridor. Apparently it's not just them, but a bunch of businesses together in the international drive district, so they're serious

 

 

[spenser1058]

17 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

This gets done with or without Disney. That's a bottom line. As long as that sales tax passes my that being said, business journal just put an article stating that Universal is willing to donate land and contribute up to 125 million for a bright line/ sun rail station along the international drive corridor. Apparently it's not just them, but a bunch of businesses together in the international drive district, so they're serious

 

 

It’s somewhat ironic that it was the IDrive cabal who did their darndest to torpedo light rail that would have enabled their workers to easily get to them. 

[jrs2]

21 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

This gets done with or without Disney. That's a bottom line. As long as that sales tax passes my that being said, business journal just put an article stating that Universal is willing to donate land and contribute up to 125 million for a bright line/ sun rail station along the international drive corridor. Apparently it's not just them, but a bunch of businesses together in the international drive district, so they're serious

Do they have land close to 528?  My understanding of the land they have or had deals with all the land the N/S Bldg is currently on and some of the parcels surrounding it.  But the land I think they have around there is along the Universal Blvd corridor to the north of the N/S Bldg.  Unless they own land near the Hilton Orlando from that prior era.  The land they said was in dispute in another thread was near Top Golf.  

[jliv]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

If the Brightline station is adjacent to Disney Springs, you and your family could schlep all your luggage on Disney motorcoaches not designed to accommodate that. A station any further south toward I4 may not even have that. If you’re going to need a Lyft, Uber or Minnie Van to get to your actual destination anyway, why not just do it once at OIA rather than changing midstream?

Dunno if you've tried grabbing an Uber at MCO recently, but let's just say it is not a good part of the "Orlando Experience".   It's a f******g nightmare.    Brightline has a last-mile option now included with their fares called Brightline+ which includes cars with drivers from all of their train stations to the rider's ultimate destination.  I'm sure there will be something similar for Disney and Universal.  In terms of travellers actually using the train service, I'll venture to say that enough domestic leisure travelers will probably take it for sheer novelty as an attraction of its own, domestic business travellers will take it if it gets them to their hotels easily, and international travellers (especially the Brits) will take it out of habit.  Being someone who has travelled out of that airport for almost 4 decades, I'll certainly be taking a train when I can.

[codypet]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Disney has become much more agnostic in the Chapek era about people getting to them. Brightline may need Disney but it’s much less true that Disney needs Brightline.

In the age of Harry Potter, Disney found out that they remained the most visited parks despite anything Universal or anyone else did. The angst of the Eisner era about keeping folks in the Disney bubble has largely abated (ironically, it’s been that way in SoCal pretty much from the beginning).

Tbh, Brightline may not even be the best way to get to Disney from OIA. Once you arrive on Disney property, you, your family and all your luggage still have to get to your resort (did we mention that WDW is the size of San Francisco?)

If the Brightline station is adjacent to Disney Springs, you and your family could schlep all your luggage on Disney motorcoaches not designed to accommodate that. A station any further south toward I4 may not even have that. If you’re going to need a Lyft, Uber or Minnie Van to get to your actual destination anyway, why not just do it once at OIA rather than changing midstream?

 

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

Maybe BL realizes that...you know about Disney not really needing them so much.  So, for BL, if they have OCCC/Universal + Disney, they're assured of certain ridership numbers on that leg in case Disney people just cab it to the property or whatever.

A BL station at Disney would kind of have to be adjacent to Diz Springs I think b/c of that huge bus transfer station they set up there already.

Unless something has changed very recently, that won't be were the station is going to be for Disney.  (Obviously there's a lot of things moving around)

33 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Do they have land close to 528?  My understanding of the land they have or had deals with all the land the N/S Bldg is currently on and some of the parcels surrounding it.  But the land I think they have around there is along the Universal Blvd corridor to the north of the N/S Bldg.  Unless they own land near the Hilton Orlando from that prior era.  The land they said was in dispute in another thread was near Top Golf.  

They never owned any land in the Orlando area save for the office plaza off JYP north of 528.  The incentive was that they DID own a bunch of land around the Miami station, and maybe they've been buying up land in Tampa?

[IAmFloridaBorn]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

Do they have land close to 528?  My understanding of the land they have or had deals with all the land the N/S Bldg is currently on and some of the parcels surrounding it.  But the land I think they have around there is along the Universal Blvd corridor to the north of the N/S Bldg.  Unless they own land near the Hilton Orlando from that prior era.  The land they said was in dispute in another thread was near Top Golf.  

I sent you a personal message with part of the article I read because I don't know how to quote it correctly.

Here is also a video link on YouTube showing where the land is through WesH channel 2

https://youtu.be/Mn97y0ZWLAU

 

 

[codypet]

Wesh article pretty much shows the old HSR alignment.

[ragerunner]

While this is a very simplified response to a very complicated issue, why not try the following. (I am going to use some fake numbers for this thought.)

Take Brightline's funds ($2 Billion) that they where going to spend for their route from the airport to Disney. Use those funds as match for additional Federal dollars ($1 Billion) to fund  the modified rail line from the airport, to International Drive then down to Disney ($3 Billion). Those 2 funding source would be enough to build the new updated line.

Then let Brightline have 'free' access to that line as well as allowing Sunrail to operate and additional service on that line. I don't think Brightline trains will have the space to support local trips from the airport to Disney. They will already be arriving at the airport pretty full at times from Miami. So you will need a dedicate service to support the demand for International Drive (Universal, SeaWorld, Convention Center and Disney).

Then if the transit tax doesn't pass we can still build this desperately needed rail line. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by ragerunner

[FLClarkKent]

An actual map would be helpful, as I can't tell if this piecemeal approach makes sense.

I get Brightline to MCO. I can certainly see it being attractive to a wide array of riders. But Brightline to I-Drive/OCCC and/or Disney would only be attractive to tourists. And only then, a slice of tourists, particularly the I-Drive/OCCC stop(s). If I'm attending a convention via Brightline, I'd have to be either a South Florida resident who hops on the train or someone who flew into South Florida (for some reason) and then take the train to my convention in Orlando. And then I have to factor in where does Brightline drop me off? At the OCCC or near my hotel?  

I suppose you would get some tourists who want to split their time between South Florida and Orlando/Disney. Those might choose to take a train.

What's missing to me is service for people who actually live in Orlando. Why would anyone take Brightline locally? And if SunRail follows a Brightline route (which caters to visitors), will it be attractive to workers? Maybe, but it's hard for me to visualize without a map.

I feel like we're being let down by our local leaders, who are trying to leverage existing or proposed methods of transportation in a piecemeal fashion -- rather than looking at the needs of the entire community (workers, residents, visitors, tourists, etc.) holistically and then coming up with a vision, strategy and solutions.

[aent]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Tbh, Brightline may not even be the best way to get to Disney from OIA. Once you arrive on Disney property, you, your family and all your luggage still have to get to your resort (did we mention that WDW is the size of San Francisco?)

If the Brightline station is adjacent to Disney Springs, you and your family could schlep all your luggage on Disney motorcoaches not designed to accommodate that. A station any further south toward I4 may not even have that. If you’re going to need a Lyft, Uber or Minnie Van to get to your actual destination anyway, why not just do it once at OIA rather than changing midstream?

Why would Disney have motorcoaches not designed to accomodate that? This isn't Disney's first rodeo. In addition, Brightline offers checked luggage, they likely will offer direct transfer service of your luggage so you don't have to get it at the airport, and hopefully, they'll bring back Disney's Magical Express style luggage-direct-to-room.

Also your argument of Lyft/Uber/Minnie Van... why would anyone currently take a bus or a train anywhere? In most cases you still need transfers. I'm surprised to see you arguing to heavily against all transit!

44 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

What's missing to me is service for people who actually live in Orlando. Why would anyone take Brightline locally? And if SunRail follows a Brightline route (which caters to visitors), will it be attractive to workers? Maybe, but it's hard for me to visualize without a map.

I feel like we're being let down by our local leaders, who are trying to leverage existing or proposed methods of transportation in a piecemeal fashion -- rather than looking at the needs of the entire community (workers, residents, visitors, tourists, etc.) holistically and then coming up with a vision, strategy and solutions.

Brigthline is not meant for local use. While it does work locally in South Florida, its unlikely in Orlando, being mid route and with its locations. What it will offer Orlando is:

1) A better way to get to South Florida (and hopefully eventually Tampa/Jax)

2) Removing a number of vehicles from our highways from those that are doing those trips

3) A base providing more possible riders to make other transit options more feasible

Without removing the High Speed aspect of it, they can't really have any more stops then they currently have in the Orlando area

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, aent said:

Why would Disney have motorcoaches not designed to accomodate that? This isn't Disney's first rodeo. In addition, Brightline offers checked luggage, they likely will offer direct transfer service of your luggage so you don't have to get it at the airport, and hopefully, they'll bring back Disney's Magical Express style luggage-direct-to-room.

Also your argument of Lyft/Uber/Minnie Van... why would anyone currently take a bus or a train anywhere? In most cases you still need transfers. I'm surprised to see you arguing to heavily against all transit!

Brigthline is not meant for local use. While it does work locally in South Florida, its unlikely in Orlando, being mid route and with its locations. What it will offer Orlando is:

1) A better way to get to South Florida (and hopefully eventually Tampa/Jax)

2) Removing a number of vehicles from our highways from those that are doing those trips

3) A base providing more possible riders to make other transit options more feasible

Without removing the High Speed aspect of it, they can't really have any more stops then they currently have in the Orlando area

You’re making an assumption based on facts that have been mentioned nowhere. Disney has never advanced any plans to provide such a service from any Brightline station. Further, they just went to great lengths to undo the program from OIA they had with Mears to do that. (We should note that the motorcoaches which carried luggage belonged to Mears, not to Disney). 
 

@jliv may indeed be correct that they’ll add Brightline+ service. I read about the use of that in South Florida. I continue to be skeptical how that pans out financially (Brightline has yet to be profitable), but we’ll find out soon enough.

 

[jack]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

They never owned any land in the Orlando area save for the office plaza off JYP north of 528.  The incentive was that they DID own a bunch of land around the Miami station, and maybe they've been buying up land in Tampa?

The downtown station is proposed to be  at Gasworx. They don’t own that property. I don’t know if they are proposing other stops. 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

5 hours ago, FLClarkKent said:

An actual map would be helpful, as I can't tell if this piecemeal approach makes sense.

I get Brightline to MCO. I can certainly see it being attractive to a wide array of riders. But Brightline to I-Drive/OCCC and/or Disney would only be attractive to tourists. And only then, a slice of tourists, particularly the I-Drive/OCCC stop(s). If I'm attending a convention via Brightline, I'd have to be either a South Florida resident who hops on the train or someone who flew into South Florida (for some reason) and then take the train to my convention in Orlando. And then I have to factor in where does Brightline drop me off? At the OCCC or near my hotel?  

I suppose you would get some tourists who want to split their time between South Florida and Orlando/Disney. Those might choose to take a train.

What's missing to me is service for people who actually live in Orlando. Why would anyone take Brightline locally? And if SunRail follows a Brightline route (which caters to visitors), will it be attractive to workers? Maybe, but it's hard for me to visualize without a map.

I feel like we're being let down by our local leaders, who are trying to leverage existing or proposed methods of transportation in a piecemeal fashion -- rather than looking at the needs of the entire community (workers, residents, visitors, tourists, etc.) holistically and then coming up with a vision, strategy and solutions.

SunRail is the local part of that, which is why they would share a new created route along the 528. I don't have an actual computer to draw one out, but I can try on the phone. But from SunRail meadow woods, the proposed route is to venture to the west via top Vineland Road. It does that until it hits the 528 and basically follows the 528 to the Orange County convention area and then the track continues to the Disney springs area and then to Tampa. So basically from meadow woods to I want to say Disney sunreal and bright line with share tracks. From Disney to Tampa would be Bright line. That is how I understand it.

 

The good thing about that is that places like Lakeland and other places in Polk County want to be a part of sunroom. I don't know how that's going to happen, but starting with the tracks down the median of i-4 would help if they want to continue to share that at least until Davenport or somewhere where the trash can spin off for SunRail or something like that.

 

Having sunraill connected to Disney from a local standpoint is great. As well as Universal and international drive from a local standpoint is fantastic. The locals don't have to take Bright line, but someone been able to either a catch a bus downtown and then catch the SunRail which sometimes is quicker than some of the bus routes or B coming from anywhere on the north or north east or east side of Central Florida makes a lot of sense.

 

We to think about the Orange blossom Express being a serious proponent for development. If the sales tax passes. It won't just be the only line but it would be the. Sunroad goes to 24 hours, at least that's the thinking of it. Our tourist area doesn't really sleep that much. There are people that work overnights and there are things that have to happen. So having that available. Having the option available for people to take the sun rail to the airport overnight instead of an Uber or whatever the case is is going to do really well. We really have to look at it from all components.

 

[jrs2]

9 hours ago, codypet said:

They never owned any land in the Orlando area save for the office plaza off JYP north of 528.  The incentive was that they DID own a bunch of land around the Miami station, and maybe they've been buying up land in Tampa?

Ok, I'm lost.  Are you talking about BL or Universal?  I was talking about Universal...

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, FLClarkKent said:

An actual map would be helpful, as I can't tell if this piecemeal approach makes sense.

I get Brightline to MCO. I can certainly see it being attractive to a wide array of riders. But Brightline to I-Drive/OCCC and/or Disney would only be attractive to tourists. And only then, a slice of tourists, particularly the I-Drive/OCCC stop(s). If I'm attending a convention via Brightline, I'd have to be either a South Florida resident who hops on the train or someone who flew into South Florida (for some reason) and then take the train to my convention in Orlando. And then I have to factor in where does Brightline drop me off? At the OCCC or near my hotel?  

I suppose you would get some tourists who want to split their time between South Florida and Orlando/Disney. Those might choose to take a train.

What's missing to me is service for people who actually live in Orlando. Why would anyone take Brightline locally? And if SunRail follows a Brightline route (which caters to visitors), will it be attractive to workers? Maybe, but it's hard for me to visualize without a map.

I feel like we're being let down by our local leaders, who are trying to leverage existing or proposed methods of transportation in a piecemeal fashion -- rather than looking at the needs of the entire community (workers, residents, visitors, tourists, etc.) holistically and then coming up with a vision, strategy and solutions.

well, the line from OIA to I-Drive cuts through a very large industrial park(s).  the cluster is one of the largest I've seen most anywhere.  As long as there is a Sunrail station or two within that industrial area to the west of Taft, then that line would of course connect to the rest of the N/S Sunrail line and add a ton of potential ridership (so long as Lynx offers final mile support).

[dcluley98]

I drew the map a month ago, but maybe with the I-4 direction not correct (not sure)

 

[AmIReal]

21 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Ok, I'm lost.  Are you talking about BL or Universal?  I was talking about Universal...

Per OBJ, the property that Universal is offering is in between Destination Parkway and 528, adjacent to the OCCC Destination Parkway. There is not an address, but you can Google 28.423013319624197, -81.45368196442746

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by AmIReal

[AmIReal]

oops

Edited May 7, 2022 by AmIReal

[spenser1058]

Would you like to head to Tampa by train from Downtown Orlando to Union Station and no dealing with getting to MCO - it’s about a two hour trip. Price: as little as $14.

Amtrak - Serving Central Floridians, not just tourists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Union_Station#/media/File%3AUnion_Station_Exterior.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Union_Station
 

Edited May 8, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

22 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Per OBJ, the property that Universal is offering is in between Destination Parkway and 528, adjacent to the OCCC Destination Parkway. There is not an address, but you can Google 28.423013319624197, -81.45368196442746

 

no kidding?  Yeah I guess they have land there.  part of that pre-911 land they sold back to the County with restrictions; I guess Hilton Orlando was part of that land and they are on the north & west side of Destination Parkway in that corner that straddles that N/S road that takes you to Vista Cay and Universal Blvd (the E-W orientated section.

So I guess that answers another question of mine...whether the rail line would come over to the north side of 528.  they'd  have to do one of those hammer a cube tunnel under an existing overpass embankment things like they did east of OIA...