Orlando Transit

[codypet]

20 hours ago, jrs2 said:

So I guess that answers another question of mine...whether the rail line would come over to the north side of 528.  they'd  have to do one of those hammer a cube tunnel under an existing overpass embankment things like they did east of OIA...

During old HSR it was planned to be a flyover over 528, but at the time the plan was to have 528 be 6 lanes.  Not the 8 it is today.  I just don't think the R/W is there for it.

[jrs2]

41 minutes ago, codypet said:

During old HSR it was planned to be a flyover over 528, but at the time the plan was to have 528 be 6 lanes.  Not the 8 it is today.  I just don't think the R/W is there for it.

no image, sorry.  But, if you look at Google map satellite view, the updated aerial is there with the expanded 528.  IS the land Universal said they'd donate the parking lot adjacent to the garage for the OCCC that is to the south of Destination Pkwy?  

Also, do you mean that with the old plan they contemplated the HSR easement to go down the median of 528 around this area?

An alternative to that would probably have to be that the easement straddle the north side of 528 where they build up underneath and elevate the line through the Orangewood/ Universal Blvd exit ramps, etc., and then drop it back down a few blocks farther down where that land is to the east of the OCCC parking garage south of Destination Pkwy. Or keep it elevated so that it could continue as such around the bend to I-4 West.  Dunno...

A 528 easement would make it a "cleaner" route...

[codypet]

44 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

no image, sorry.  But, if you look at Google map satellite view, the updated aerial is there with the expanded 528.  IS the land Universal said they'd donate the parking lot adjacent to the garage for the OCCC that is to the south of Destination Pkwy?  

Also, do you mean that with the old plan they contemplated the HSR easement to go down the median of 528 around this area?

An alternative to that would probably have to be that the easement straddle the north side of 528 where they build up underneath and elevate the line through the Orangewood/ Universal Blvd exit ramps, etc., and then drop it back down a few blocks farther down where that land is to the east of the OCCC parking garage south of Destination Pkwy. Or keep it elevated so that it could continue as such around the bend to I-4 West.  Dunno...

A 528 easement would make it a "cleaner" route...

This was originally envisioned as the alignment.  Along Taft Vineland and on to SR 528.

This was the flyover location

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

This was originally envisioned as the alignment.  Along Taft Vineland and on to SR 528.

This was the flyover location

Yeah.  I assumed a straight line over the JYP interchange, but because 528 was a bridge over JYP, this would have to be a bridge over 528 which would make it even taller which means the gradual angle of the rail line would extend farther away even more, so I figured they would have to snake it around a little to keep it from getting that high...or whatever...

[codypet]

9 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Yeah.  I assumed a straight line over the JYP interchange, but because 528 was a bridge over JYP, this would have to be a bridge over 528 which would make it even taller which means the gradual angle of the rail line would extend farther away even more, so I figured they would have to snake it around a little to keep it from getting that high...or whatever...

At the time with the road being 4 lanes and an open median, it was a straight shot with the span just wide enough for 6 lanes.  You might be right now that its 8 lanes with the divider and no median.

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

At the time with the road being 4 lanes and an open median, it was a straight shot with the span just wide enough for 6 lanes.  You might be right now that its 8 lanes with the divider and no median.

ah...yeah, maybe now it will be a parallel easement to the north.  but it would have been so much easier (and better for visual effect) had it been in the median.

[dcluley98]

 

[spenser1058]

4 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

 

Universal has long lagged Disney in community support even though they’re the park actually in Orlando. No doubt it’s mostly for their own purposes but it’s good to have them in the tent at last.

[dcluley98]

I am just glad to see them actually somewhat "working together" now. For so long it was a prisoner's dilemma where everyone was worse off.  Actually working together with the potential help of Federal grant funding means that they can each achieve a better outcome in a non-zero-sum game. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by dcluley98

[smileguy]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:45 AM, spenser1058 said:

Tbh, Brightline may not even be the best way to get to Disney from OIA. Once you arrive on Disney property, you, your family and all your luggage still have to get to your resort (did we mention that WDW is the size of San Francisco?)

I think they don't care about OIA to Disney. They want to be the best way to get from South Florida to Disney and from Tampa to Disney.

[jrs2]

20 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

 

assumingly the land is adjacent to 528 near Destination Pkwy?  And it looks like their plan is for BL to straddle I-4 and make the curve at the 528 interchange per that crude diagram...

Universal should be a player in this.  I mean, Epic U is being designed to cater also to the convention industry...which is right next door to Epic...

[popsiclebrandon]

Good quick read on how parking ratios are getting it wrong and hopefully thats going to change.

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/07/12/american-cities-are-drowning-in-car-storage/

[spenser1058]

14 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Good quick read on how parking ratios are getting it wrong and hopefully thats going to change.

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/07/12/american-cities-are-drowning-in-car-storage/

There is no such thing as “free” parking.

[jack]

3 hours ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Good quick read on how parking ratios are getting it wrong and hopefully thats going to change.

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/07/12/american-cities-are-drowning-in-car-storage/

Tell that to Miami. 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Good quick read on how parking ratios are getting it wrong and hopefully thats going to change.

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/07/12/american-cities-are-drowning-in-car-storage/

"Parking inventories like the one Scharnhorst compiled for his report can lead to better decisions about parking construction, replacing the current system where parking is mandated by zoning codes based on guesswork and pseudoscience, and where the assumption is that everyone must be able to drive and park at every potential destination on the busiest day of the year.

Scharnhorst concludes that cities should change course, and that in places with excessive parking developers should “allocate capital to non-parking uses” — a.k.a. housing, commercial buildings, and, in general, the sorts of things that make cities habitable for people instead of cars."

Two observations here:

1.  in that first paragraph above, this is the main reason why nobody has developed the Pine St. & Orange lot formerly occupied by the sub shop which burned down around 2005-06.

2. in that second paragraph above (the last of the article), I think the market dictates that course of development/development change. 

"Developers should..."  Uh, hmmm...yeah...ok...let me know how that works out...

If you go to Chicago, as big as it is, most all of the larger streets- set up in mile grid, half mile increments... have parking meters and parallel street parking.  Then there's secondary street parking fronting residential corridors just off of the commercial corridors.  Miami (City of) is based on the Burnham Plan too.  There is parking everywhere, unless you are downtown where it is at a premium.

Orange Ave has street parking restricted south of Robinson until after 5pm and on weekends.  Why?  

[prahaboheme]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

"Parking inventories like the one Scharnhorst compiled for his report can lead to better decisions about parking construction, replacing the current system where parking is mandated by zoning codes based on guesswork and pseudoscience, and where the assumption is that everyone must be able to drive and park at every potential destination on the busiest day of the year.

Scharnhorst concludes that cities should change course, and that in places with excessive parking developers should “allocate capital to non-parking uses” — a.k.a. housing, commercial buildings, and, in general, the sorts of things that make cities habitable for people instead of cars."

Two observations here:

1.  in that first paragraph above, this is the main reason why nobody has developed the Pine St. & Orange lot formerly occupied by the sub shop which burned down around 2005-06.

2. in that second paragraph above (the last of the article), I think the market dictates that course of development/development change. 

"Developers should..."  Uh, hmmm...yeah...ok...let me know how that works out...

If you go to Chicago, as big as it is, most all of the larger streets- set up in mile grid, half mile increments... have parking meters and parallel street parking.  Then there's secondary street parking fronting residential corridors just off of the commercial corridors.  Miami (City of) is based on the Burnham Plan too.  There is parking everywhere, unless you are downtown where it is at a premium.

Orange Ave has street parking restricted south of Robinson until after 5pm and on weekends.  Why?  

Chicago, and Miami to a lesser extent, rely less on drivers and there is an option for mass transit. Generally speaking it’s also easier just to get around a city like Miami or LA despite their traffic woes because they have way more streets than a city like Orlando. 

[jrs2]

16 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Chicago, and Miami to a lesser extent, rely less on drivers and there is an option for mass transit. Generally speaking it’s also easier just to get around a city like Miami or LA despite their traffic woes because they have way more streets than a city like Orlando. 

that's my biggest gripe with orlando...not nearly enough cross streets and alternate routes

[HankStrong]

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

that's my biggest gripe with orlando...not nearly enough cross streets and alternate routes

Having lived in cities with laterals and crosstown freeways, this city is a nightmare to get across.  You have an incomplete circle freeway in a town with no natural barriers preventing it (Chicago & Lake Michigan and Nashville & the mountains both come to mind) or multi-state logistics.  There is no good way at all North of downtown.  The 528 stops entirely too short and while there are many political reasons, there aren't any good ones.

Even the city streets stop every few blocks due to lakes or ponds or just random reasons.

[spenser1058]

On 5/18/2022 at 3:03 PM, HankStrong said:

Having lived in cities with laterals and crosstown freeways, this city is a nightmare to get across.  You have an incomplete circle freeway in a town with no natural barriers preventing it (Chicago & Lake Michigan and Nashville & the mountains both come to mind) or multi-state logistics.  There is no good way at all North of downtown.  The 528 stops entirely too short and while there are many political reasons, there aren't any good ones.

Even the city streets stop every few blocks due to lakes or ponds or just random reasons.

Although you make good points, there are a couple of things to remember. First, you mentioned Chicago and Nashville, both primary cities in their states. Orlando was down the list (it didn’t even hit the Top 50 MSAs until 1980, where it squeaked in at… #50). We just didn’t have the clout then. 

It also didn’t help that we had weak representation in Congress at the time. Sen. Paula Hawkins and Connie Mack both had other things on their minds, as did Orlando’s Congressman, Bill “I Saved Your Navy Base” McCollum. None wanted to do the heavy lifting required to get the beltways the big boy Congressfolk did in Jacksonville and Tampa.

No, we don’t have mountains (neither does Nashville, they’re properly called hills - Mt. Juliet’s a couple of counties over), but the lakes that are often spaced every few hundred yards apart in much of the core did have an impact (and let’s not forget the real estate industrial complex if you told them the lakes that raised the property values were going to be crossed by roads - I would have loved to have you at Realtor  meetings for that - I often was in my FL Senate and campaign days).

There was never any way (nor in many cases were there funds) to bisect Winter Park. This is the city that moved I-4 and the legislation they passed to do so was used 20 years later by Belle Isle and Edgewood to stop the Central Connector from linking DTO and MCO.

Let’s also remember that both I4 and the Turnpike were never supposed to come to Orlando. That happened due to the legerdemain of Sentinel Publisher Martin Andersen. Unfortunately, he didn’t always think about what made sense as much as what was good for him (the oddball ramps at Amelia, 50 and Magnolia were specifically designed for his delivery trucks).

Finally, because we were getting so little help from the Feds, it fell to O-OCEA to build what they could justify with initially less than robust bonding. It was that fact that led the Greeneway to be as crooked as a dog’s hind leg because they couldn’t build it further out like, say I-295 in Jax. The original E-W was even worse and why so much of the city was cut off by the road because they couldn’t afford to elevate most of it through downtown. It’s also why we got that double-trump interchange at I4 - urban myth is they were going to toll it but it had to do as much with buying as little land as possible as much as anything else.

So, I agree completely there was much to be desired in the processes, but, in retrospect, we probably got more than we expected.

We’re hardly the only second-tier city with such issues. Next time you head across I-40 to Memphis and it dead ends into Overton Park (the only break in the road from coast to coast), think of us.

And, finally, my favorite, in South Carolina, where I-95 got moved miles from its original location in order to save that premiere attraction… South of the Border!
 

Edited May 20, 2022 by spenser1058

[dcluley98]

The Trains have arrived!!!!  Cool to see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIUd_G4eWcM

Edited May 22, 2022 by dcluley98

[prahaboheme]

Is a Sunrail spur to OIA the best option?

Is an Airtrain (similar to the setup for Newark IA to PATH and Amtrak) a better option? Wouldn’t that be more convenient and more frequent?

[jrs2]

16 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Is a Sunrail spur to OIA the best option?

Is an Airtrain (similar to the setup for Newark IA to PATH and Amtrak) a better option? Wouldn’t that be more convenient and more frequent?

what's the tech?  I know JFK has one but I've never used it. 

O'Hare has the AGT like OIA that goes from United to the Classic Trio of terminals, then to the Intl Term, then out to Mannheim Road where they built a parking facility (near the Horizon).  They may not be as far as Meadowoods Station or the Taft spur interchange with CSX line at Orange Ave; not sure.  But that's gotta cost $$$.  I know The City spends alot of $$$ on O'Hare and recently expanded the cargo area yet again, as well as having squeezed in a dozen or more gates into the existing infrastructure (plus and addition to the Intl Term that's u/c).

I know based on what's been posted here, that for Sunrail as is to dock at OIA they would have to retrofit the docking area to accommodate the height/lack of,  of the Sunrail cars.

I always thought it would be a specialized trainset going back and forth to "Taft."  But that would mean that you would have to switch trains in "Taft" and that would add minutes to travel time.  The El Train goes directly into O'Hare ala a basement station; same tech, just a subway at that point (like Marta and Metrorail).

But at the end of the day, if you are flying Delta in it's current gates location, you would take Sunrail to "Taft" or Sunrail to Intermodal, then take the AGT to Landside, then go thru security to the AGT to Airside 4. 

Definitely not the most efficient layout.  But I remember that they had a proposal initially that included a station just east of Hyatt so that you had a choice of Northside terminal or Southside terminal.  Remember that?

So at the end of the day, unless your flight leaves from Terminal C, taking a train to OIA may not be your first choice, unless you go early.

[uncreativeusername]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I know based on what's been posted here, that for Sunrail as is to dock at OIA they would have to retrofit the docking area to accommodate the height/lack of,  of the Sunrail cars.

what's the tech?  I know JFK has one but I've never used it. 

I wouldn't call it a retrofit - the existing two platforms are built for Brightline, with room for expansion of more platforms. Wouldn't it just be a matter of building an expansion platform at-grade with the track? (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...) 

And AirTrain is an APM, same thing as is already at OIA.

18 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Is a Sunrail spur to OIA the best option?

Is an Airtrain (similar to the setup for Newark IA to PATH and Amtrak) a better option? Wouldn’t that be more convenient and more frequent?

I would argue that SunRail straight to the airport is the superior option. OIA is becoming a legit intermodal hub, and our regional rail system should connect directly to this hub. AirTrain at JFK connects with Jamaica Station, which itself is an intermodal hub...I don't know the Newark AirTrain personally, but it also effectively connects to another intermodal hub w/ NJ Transit and Amtrak. So, if our intermodal hub is already developing at OIA, let everything converge there. 

Also, being able to take a train directly from downtown to the airport would be a significant (and marketable) asset for the city.  I agree that high frequency is important too, but ideally it wouldn't have to be an either/or. Not to mention, SunRail directly connecting to OIA also lays the groundwork for expanding to Lake Nona. A Lake Nona-Airport-Downtown SunRail route may currently be a pipe dream, but would be killer for the region. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by uncreativeusername

[codypet]

11 minutes ago, uncreativeusername said:

I wouldn't call it a retrofit - the existing two platforms are built for Brightline, with room for expansion of more platforms. Wouldn't it just be a matter of building an expansion platform at-grade with the track? (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...) 

And AirTrain is an APM, same thing as is already at OIA.

I would argue that SunRail straight to the airport is the superior option. OIA is becoming a legit intermodal hub, and our regional rail system should connect directly to this hub. AirTrain at JFK connects with Jamaica Station, which itself is an intermodal hub...I don't know the Newark AirTrain personally, but it also effectively connects to another intermodal hub w/ NJ Transit and Amtrak. So, if our intermodal hub is already developing at OIA, let everything converge there. 

Also, being able to take a train directly from downtown to the airport would be a significant (and marketable) asset for the city.  I agree that high frequency is important too, but ideally it wouldn't have to be an either/or. Not to mention, SunRail directly connecting to OIA also lays the groundwork for expanding to Lake Nona. A Lake Nona-Airport-Downtown SunRail route may currently be a pipe dream, but would be killer for the region. 

Sunrail directly to the airport opens an insane amount of doors for Sunrail.  One could say that link and the subsequent frequency changes that would come with it immediately open it up to huge jumps in ridership.   Possibly to the point where they'll have to run 3 passenger cars instead of 2.  

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, uncreativeusername said:

I wouldn't call it a retrofit - the existing two platforms are built for Brightline, with room for expansion of more platforms. Wouldn't it just be a matter of building an expansion platform at-grade with the track? (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...) 

And AirTrain is an APM, same thing as is already at OIA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_guideway_transit