Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[jrs2]

two more trees at Court & Pine were chainsawed about 4" up; west side of Court.

[AndyPok1]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

Oh no where's the O?

Trust me, I desperately looked around for a hurricane souvenir, but I didn't venture out until almost 5.  I'm sure someone already scooped it up.

[jrs2]

I know everyone is still in hurricane mode, but I was surfing on Miami development, and, I gotta tell you, they are building down there like it's going out of style.  The foreign investment, and the catalysts that have driven it, the arts scene, the further development of other neighborhoods in and around downtown who's rise in popularity is also driving up demand for new construction, etc.  It's incredible.  The boom they had in the early 2000's is nothing compared to what's being built now, or for the past 5-6 years.

The question is, what types of things can Orlando do the create a demand for new construction?  Downtown has Lake Eola, Ivanhoe, Lucerne, and all three have neighboring developments in those neighborhoods, which is good.  But the rate of new construction downtown is like being on life support compared to Miami.

Miami has the waterfront and decades upon decades of Miami style reputation to build upon, and it has.  The PAC was a catalyst; that arts festival moving there was another.  Orlando regionally can get creative and create similar demand.  The Disney brand and surging Universal brand are good catalysts.  If Mathin could get his 7-star hotel built, that could be a good catalyst project as well.  I know these are not in downtown, but I believe that you can have spillover from one sector to another based on "name".  The Magic Entertainment complex could be a catalyst as well for downtown.  Digital Arts campus also.  They just really need to get moving on these because it goes like this:  there isn't an infinite amount of money in the world for investors, and right now, Miami has most investors' attention.  Orlando needs to get some of that attention here and investment, whether it be in downtown or I-Drive.

I think Brightline will be a catalyst project.  If we can get it connected to Sunrail and/or I-Drive, that will be key.  If I'm not mistaken, didn't Architectonica have  a proposal two years back for a tower off of Garland?  I think they did.  Someone needs to pimp land up here to The Related Group for some projects.

I remember during the boom, Blue Rose and Citymark were two huge game changing projects based on visibility and location.  Blue Rose came close.  If Orlando's boom had just started a year earlier...

But now, for downtown, it does look like Tremont is getting built.  The new Earthfare development is going to be important as well.  We'll see how things progress.

Edited September 15, 2017 by jrs2

[codypet]

Why is Miami's UP so dead?

[spenser1058]

There's a little bit more Miami activity on skyscrapercity. The bigger cities seem to like the whole international vibe over there. Personally, I think the UP site is a lot more user-friendly so I'm glad Orlando posters seem to prefer it over here.

[nite owℓ]

50 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I know everyone is still in hurricane mode, but I was surfing on Miami development, and, I gotta tell you, they are building down there like it's going out of style.  The foreign investment, and the catalysts that have driven it, the arts scene, the further development of other neighborhoods in and around downtown who's rise in popularity is also driving up demand for new construction, etc.  It's incredible.  The boom they had in the early 2000's is nothing compared to what's being built now, or for the past 5-6 years.

Before Hurricane Irma, the City of Miami stated "Currently, there are 20 to 25 construction cranes in the City of Miami. These tower cranes are designed to withstand winds up to 145 miles per hour, not a Category 5 Hurricane. " I cannot imagine having 20-25 cranes in the City of Orlando all at once...

I think the CV/UCF/Valencia campus would have a greater impact on downtown than the Magic Entertainment Complex.

[spenser1058]

I know folks on this board have an aversion to the Sunbelt model of urban development, wishing we could turn back time (with Cher!) and be more like NYC or Boston. Generally, that won't happen where there is lots of land. Orlando has an unlimited amount available in all directions. Miami, by contrast, is more like the NE model of very limited space (an ocean to the east and the Everglades to the west.) So, they're going vertical.

The NYTimes also did an article at one point noting that many of those purchasing from South America prefer towers while our most popular international housing buyers (the Brits) prefer low-rise suburbs.

Ironically, between 2010 and 2016, Miami grew by 9.02% while Orlando blew them out of the water at 14.38%. Orlando's doing just fine thank you; it's just going to be a long time before space is at enough of a premium to require the verticality many want so badly.

Edited September 15, 2017 by spenser1058

[Jernigan]

Surveying happening at the Cambria Suites location 

[prahaboheme]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I know folks on this board have an aversion to the Sunbelt model of urban development, wishing we could turn back time (with Cher!) and be more like NYC or Boston. Generally, that won't happen where there is lots of land. Orlando has an unlimited amount available in all directions. Miami, by contrast, is more like the NE model of very limited space (an ocean to the east and the Everglades to the west.) So, they're going vertical.

The NYTimes also did an article at one point noting that many of those purchasing from South America prefer towers while our most popular international housing buyers (the Brits) prefer low-rise suburbs.

Ironically, between 2010 and 2016, Miami grew by 9.02% while Orlando blew them out of the water at 14.38%. Orlando's doing just fine thank you; it's just going to be a long time before space is at enough of a premium to require the verticality many want so badly.

Totally beating a dead horse but I'll say it again - there is also no correlation between skyline and a pedestrian friendly city.

Downtown Orlando, St Pete, and Miami Beach are all good examples of this.

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Totally beating a dead horse but I'll say it again - there is also no correlation between skyline and a pedestrian friendly city.

Downtown Orlando, St Pete, and Miami Beach are all good examples of this.

I think that's what we've seen with the explosion of Main Streets and the revitalization of WG, (Delightful!) DeLand and Kissimmee. Now the issue is connectivity between those places. I rarely use my car when I'm downtown and not at work - it's the commute that requires a vehicle (we also need better trail connections to the beach.)

[prahaboheme]

Just now, spenser1058 said:

I think that's what we've seen with the explosion of Main Streets and the revitalization of WG, (Delightful!) DeLand and Kissimmee. Now the issue is connectivity between those places. I rarely use my car when I'm downtown and not at work - it's the commute that requires a vehicle (we also need better trail connections to the beach.)

Kissimmee will have the connection pretty soon and seems to be taking the right steps upfront to ensure that Kissimmee Station is a successful SunRail stop.

 I do think a western Orange SunRail branch should be prioritized as the next expansion.  There are many cities along those old rails that could benefit from SunRail and looking at the WG example already for their revitalization (Ocooe comes to mind).

[spenser1058]

My cousin Rusty is the mayor of Ocoee - I'll have to get him on that! <g>

[alex]

On 9/15/2017 at 2:18 PM, spenser1058 said:

...Generally, that won't happen where there is lots of land. Orlando has an unlimited amount available in all directions...

As a city and as a region, we really need to start talking about an urban growth boundary and a stronger land preservation policy. 

[spenser1058]

2 hours ago, alex said:

As a city and as a region, we really need to start talking about an urban growth boundary and a stronger land preservation policy. 

We do indeed, but the reality is that, even if Orange County were to be as pure as the driven snow, the sprawl just moves to the next county over (not to mention fighting the power the Deseret Ranch owners have in Tallahassee.)

Until there are significant changes in both the executive and legislative branches at the state capital, that's not changing. We HAD significant growth management legislation passed in the 1980's (it was by no means perfect, but it was a great start) but subsequent administrations gutted those rules. Yes, one particular party led the charge to do that but we aren't allowed to discuss that here. (Full disclosure: the state senator I worked for back then was a leader in growth management legislation so I'm very familiar with what happened before and after.)

Within Orange County, Linda Chapin tried hard to draw the line on the urban service area but as the first county chair under the new charter, her power was not yet fully entrenched to do it. The next county leader, Mel Martinez, tried an end run by requiring concurrency with OCPS and some of the roads, but he headed off to DC before those rules got traction.

His replacement, Rich Crotty (appointed by Jeb Bush), simply had no interest in the issue as it got in the way of his career plans. 

We had hoped Teresa Jacobs, whose brand was all about preserving neighborhoods, would be different, but trying to hold back growth wasn't a recipe for success following the Great Recession. More recently, Teresa seems to have been preoccupied with other issues.

Buddy's approach in the City seems to be to split the baby: his administration values density in the core but, in the 'burbs, his approach seems to be that we need the tax revenue through annexing and that won't happen if we get too far ahead of the county.

Next year's OC mayoral election needs to address the issue; so far, we're only hearing names, not policies, though.

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

On 9/15/2017 at 6:36 PM, prahaboheme said:

Totally beating a dead horse but I'll say it again - there is also no correlation between skyline and a pedestrian friendly city.

Downtown Orlando, St Pete, and Miami Beach are all good examples of this.

Agreed.   But there is a correlation between skyline and innovation, and development with growth and construction.  It seems like Orlando is on life support when it comes to construction downtown compared to some of these other cities.  The only thing I see is that projects like Lucerne Promenade are potential catalysts for future growth.  Publix in Paramount was supposed to be that, but the only projects built nearby since it opened post-boom are: CitiTower, 420 Artisan, Thornton Park Brownstones, and now Modera (which I don't think is because of Publix).  Is that good, or should there have been more?

The North Quarter projects, I believe, begot each other ala demand to develop or build out that neighborhood.  But that 'hood needs a catalyst project to keep that development and demand going or it will stagnate; and the catalyst project may just be more retail at the base of those buildings- but they're not leased yet.

short of catalyst projects, the only thing I foresee for Orlando in general is that an increase in density of work force and residents will be it's own catalyst for more growth, but that will take too much time to get it to the point you see cities like Miami at development-wise, which have that extra intangible that brings in development demand based on, what do you call it, "hype" or whatever.  Hype or no hype, the money being invested is real.

They really need to get moving on Creative Village; UCF's building(s); etc.  That will draw a lot of new attention to downtown.

 

 

[aent]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

We do indeed, but the reality is that, even if Orange County were to be as pure as the driven snow, the sprawl just moves to the next county over (not to mention fighting the power the Deseret Ranch owners have in Tallahassee.)

Until there are significant changes in both the executive and legislative branches at the state capital, that's not changing. We HAD significant growth management legislation passed in the 1980's (it was by no means perfect, but it was a great start) but subsequent administrations gutted those rules. Yes, one particular party led the charge to do that but we aren't allowed to discuss that here. (Full disclosure: the state senator I worked for back then was a leader in growth management legislation so I'm very familiar with what happened before and after.)

Within Orange County, Linda Chapin tried hard to draw the line on the urban service area but as the first county chair under the new charter, her power was not yet fully entrenched to do it. The next county leader, Mel Martinez, tried an end run by requiring concurrency with OCPS and some of the roads, but he headed off to DC before those rules got traction.

His replacement, Rich Crotty (appointed by Jeb Bush), simply had no interest in the issue as it got in the way of his career plans. 

We had hoped Teresa Jacobs, whose brand was all about preserving neighborhoods, would be different, but trying to hold back growth wasn't a recipe for success following the Great Recession. More recently, Teresa seems to have been preoccupied with other issues.

Buddy's approach in the City seems to be to split the baby: his administration values density in the core but, in the 'burbs, his approach seems to be that we need the tax revenue through annexing and that won't happen if we get too far ahead of the county.

Next year's OC mayoral election needs to address the issue; so far, we're only hearing names, not policies, though.

 

And, of course, there's the question of what exactly is a fair spot to draw the line. You're hurting property values of a lot of smaller, poorer individuals who the value of their land is basically what they got. The big companies and owners, will use the urban service line to beat down the little guys and eliminate competition, and boost the value of the land that they own... Given thats what goes on, its hard to support the government draws that line for me, as much as I'd like to see more density.

[RedStar25]

On 9/15/2017 at 7:01 PM, spenser1058 said:

My cousin Rusty is the mayor of Ocoee - I'll have to get him on that! <g>

Well, People in Ocoee aren't very pleased in becoming a new "Pine Hills West". 

[AndyPok1]

58 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Agreed.   But there is a correlation between skyline and innovation, and development with growth and construction.  It seems like Orlando is on life support when it comes to construction downtown compared to some of these other cities.  The only thing I see is that projects like Lucerne Promenade are potential catalysts for future growth.  Publix in Paramount was supposed to be that, but the only projects built nearby since it opened post-boom are: CitiTower, 420 Artisan, Thornton Park Brownstones, and now Modera (which I don't think is because of Publix).  Is that good, or should there have been more?

 

 

I see it as a bit of a both?  I don't think any of us envisioned Citi Tower rising up on what is largely a narrow lot, and giving us our best building in a decade.  At the same time, with 420, and 520 once it gets going, where else do you want to build in South Eola?

I know there was a proposal at one point to knock down one or two of the houses on Pine and replace them with a tower, but I actually like the bungalows that are offices to give it a different less CBD feel.  Once Modera finishes and if Capital Plaza 3 ever kicks off, there's basically no empty lots on either Pine or Church except for the two assisted living tower parking lots. 

The question is how do you activate it more.   I have the same question with North Quarter.  I love that Orange is entirely filled in.  However you go up there after 9, its a ghosttown.  How do we get those people out and about, sitting in cafes or on patios.

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, AndyPok1 said:

I see it as a bit of a both?  I don't think any of us envisioned Citi Tower rising up on what is largely a narrow lot, and giving us our best building in a decade.  At the same time, with 420, and 520 once it gets going, where else do you want to build in South Eola?

I know there was a proposal at one point to knock down one or two of the houses on Pine and replace them with a tower, but I actually like the bungalows that are offices to give it a different less CBD feel.  Once Modera finishes and if Capital Plaza 3 ever kicks off, there's basically no empty lots on either Pine or Church except for the two assisted living tower parking lots. 

The question is how do you activate it more.   I have the same question with North Quarter.  I love that Orange is entirely filled in.  However you go up there after 9, its a ghosttown.  How do we get those people out and about, sitting in cafes or on patios.

Great questions.  I remember those huge proposals between Sanctuary and Jackson that never got built because of the bust.  Those two lots are still vacant (520 is one of them).  Yeah, I didn't envision CitiTower going up either. 

People mention how Orlando has so much land compared to Miami- which dictates height.  But, South Eola land is finite, so, when the 420 Artisan people build a 9-10 story, two block long building, I think there's a problem with that.  CitiTower is a great example of what should be built.  420 should've been half the footprint and roughly the height of CitiTower.  Especially when Star Tower is right next door with a minimal footprint and rooftop amenities deck.

In a big city, you would see a dozen more buildings going up in that South Eola quadrant with the available land that's left.  I know, we've beat that horse dead countless times...

[alex]

Planned apartment downtown could have unique wall art

Edit: I guess this should go in the "Magnolia Rose" thread.

Edited September 19, 2017 by alex

[prahaboheme]

Is the art mural a nod to Body Wars?

If so, approve this immediately! 

Edited September 20, 2017 by prahaboheme

[bulldogger]

Looks like something from I-Drive.  Instead of making the building a piece of art, they will put it up with art on it.  Lacks any imagination whatsoever.

[JFW657]

The article states that what is shown in the rendering (a treble clef) is just a place holder and that the the final artwork will be something altogether different.

31 minutes ago, bulldogger said:

Looks like something from I-Drive.  Instead of making the building a piece of art, they will put it up with art on it.  Lacks any imagination whatsoever.

Buildings should strive to look like buildings. Once you start trying to create buildings as art, you run the risk of creating an eyesore.

I think we've all seen buildings that tried to be a piece of art and ended up looking like a piece of.... well, something else.

[jrs2]

^^

I like the design of the building.  I've seen much worse.

[orange87]

What is this?

Developer seeks contractor for $1.8B Magic Place's 1st phase: https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/09/20/developer-seeks-contractor-for-1-8b-magic-places.html?ana=fbk