Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[JFW657]

240 rooms, figure 12 rooms per floor, that's 20 floors right there, not counting ground floor lobby, retail, dining, etc.

Lot of discussion about brick facade in the ARB report, too.

Now it's just waiting and hoping.

[gibby]

It will be eight floors.  Here is a link to the MPB report:

 

http://www.cityoforlando.net/city-planning/wp-content/uploads/sites/27/2018/05/MPBProjectOverview2018-07_MPL2018-10023.pdf

 

[JFW657]

Yeah, I did a little bit of "re-guesstimating" using the tower portion of the downtown Marriott as a size reference. They have 293 rooms (and 4 suites) in a 14 story tower that has approximately the same size footprint that this building probably would, so I figured that with 53+ fewer rooms it would be closer to ten than to twenty.

Still, eight floors isn't bad at all. Big improvement over what's there now.

I just wish they'd bring the red brick further down. There is some mention of adjusting the brick colors and more closely matching the church next door, in the ARB also posted above.

[spenser1058]

Downtown Arts District/CityArts Factory eyes a move to the historic Rogers/Kiene building at Magnolia and Pine. This could jumpstart pedestrian activity along that stretch of Magnolia. Great idea.

http://bit.ly/2MO4V4X

From the Sentinel

[jrs2]

15 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Downtown Arts District/CityArts Factory eyes a move to the historic Rogers/Kiene building at Magnolia and Pine. This could jumpstart pedestrian activity along that stretch of Magnolia. Great idea.

http://bit.ly/2MO4V4X

From the Sentinel

is there enough space over there to house the different parlors?  I was just there.  Third Thursday...

[spenser1058]

14 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

is there enough space over there to house the different parlors?  I was just there.  Third Thursday...

They seem to think they can use the adjoining alley to spread out for events. I agree with you that it will be tight but, hey, artsy folks are nothing if not creative!

[smileguy]

My first thought is how this will impact the SAK space - they have been under the DAD lease agreement and are a great destination catalyst for this corner, bringing out a much more age-diverse demographic than the nightclubs.  It also makes me wonder about what the City has in mind for old CityArts Factory. It's potentially well-located and well laid out for a few retail storefronts. 

[Jernigan]

VentureX Co working space is also moving nearby at Pine and Magnolia in the former sports bar space (Versus and other names)

[codypet]

1 hour ago, smileguy said:

My first thought is how this will impact the SAK space - they have been under the DAD lease agreement and are a great destination catalyst for this corner, bringing out a much more age-diverse demographic than the nightclubs.  It also makes me wonder about what the City has in mind for old CityArts Factory. It's potentially well-located and well laid out for a few retail storefronts. 

Bar Orlando is coming back! j/k

[I am Reality]

What?! 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-high-speed-rail-orlando-20180622-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

[jrs2]

24 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

What?! 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-high-speed-rail-orlando-20180622-story,amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Well, I don't think we can move this to the Brightline thread just yet b/c they're putting it up for "bid", wink, wink.  But I think that's where it should go.

That said, I bet this was in the plan for a while and they kept the announcement under wraps until Scott needed it to shut Nelson up about rejecting the Obama HSR money.

Also, they may revive the former potential route alignment they had before with a potential 528 alignment taking it to OCCC then WDW then  Downtown Tampa.

Edited June 22, 2018 by jrs2

[spenser1058]

jrs, you're a very wise man. Let's think about this: Rick Scott has been governor for 8 years and hasn't lifted a finger regarding transit in all that time until he's in a tight race for US Senate. Yes, I'll entertain a friendly wager on the likelihood of this "unnamed" source ever being heard of again after the first Tuesday in November.

Edited June 22, 2018 by spenser1058

[I am Reality]

Makes a SunRail link to OIA that much more important.  

The entire Brightline system will likely run well south of downtown.  

Maybe this project lights a fire under our local politicians' asses.

[jrs2]

13 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Makes a SunRail link to OIA that much more important.  

The entire Brightline system will likely run well south of downtown.  

Maybe this project lights a fire under our local politicians' asses.

very good point.  Orlando to Miami, eh.  But Orlando to Tampa as well...the dynamic changes quite a bit because now that new route would add to the potential ridership numbers that would impact Sunrail.

15 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

jrs, you're a very wise man. Let's think about this: Rick Scott has been governor for 8 years and hasn't lifted a finger regarding transit in all that time until he's in a tight race for US Senate. Yes, I'll entertain a friendly wager on the likelihood of this "unnamed" source ever being heard of again after the first Tuesday in November.

there's a proverb, I think Greek, that in essence means "I am learning as I age." 

Yeah, 'ole Scott...

 

OMG.  Could this be why GOAA rejected the Maglev proposal?  Maybe they do plan of using a 528 alignment after all...

Edited June 22, 2018 by jrs2

[aent]

4 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Well, I don't think we can move this to the Brightline thread just yet b/c they're putting it up for "bid", wink, wink.  But I think that's where it should go.

That said, I bet this was in the plan for a while and they kept the announcement under wraps until Scott needed it to shut Nelson up about rejecting the Obama HSR money.

Also, they may revive the former potential route alignment they had before with a potential 528 alignment taking it to OCCC then WDW then  Downtown Tampa.

So, umm, ever since the Brightline announcement initially, they've said there plan was to build a Miami to Orlando route, Tampa to Orlando route, and Jacksonville to Orlando route... what does this change? He's bringing it up now in response to Nelson, but I've been hearing about the Tampa-Orlando route for years now as a future phase... and nothing has really changed, they just still are proceeding, and at this point we have no real timeline, although this does sound like it is hopefully sooner rather then later, and perhaps the Tampa extension is getting pushed ahead of the Jacksonville one? From what I've previously heard (and this was a year or so ago), we shouldn't expect any updates on the next phase until the Orlando extension is operational.

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

jrs, you're a very wise man. Let's think about this: Rick Scott has been governor for 8 years and hasn't lifted a finger regarding transit in all that time until he's in a tight race for US Senate. Yes, I'll entertain a friendly wager on the likelihood of this "unnamed" source ever being heard of again after the first Tuesday in November.

Rick Scott did approve Sunrail, and the entire Brightline proposal and construction happened under his watch. We've had more passenger rail infrastructure done under Rick Scott's tenure then the last 20 years before him. Which governor did more then him, other then the lip service and stuff that we never heard of other then proposals that went nowhere? I'm not necessarily saying Rick Scott was the procuring cause of it, but he did allow it to happen, Mica was probably the procuring cause of most of it, he was Florida's rail politician who got things done.

Also, out of curiosity, what unnamed source are you talking about?

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

OMG.  Could this be why GOAA rejected the Maglev proposal?  Maybe they do plan of using a 528 alignment after all...

How does this add any reason to reject the Maglev proposal? There was still supposed to be room for the HSR, that alignment remain reserved from all of the original proposals way back in the year 2000 where FDOT started planning all new/replacement bridges along the I-4 corridor to allow a HSR to pass. Its apparent that some of our liberal politicans didn't want a private transit company to build and operate a route and cost them some of their tax dollars they could possibly use to build their own public transit route and use taxpayer dollars to fund and operate.

Honestly, Florida is in a special place right now, we are literally the only place in the country where we have built a completely private passenger rail service in many decades... and we are the only place I've heard of that actually had 2 private rail proposals from separate entities at once (even if our local government shot down a free, no tax dollar rail service from the airport to the convention center). Clearly the private industry sees Orlando needs rail, and is stepping in to solve it, just like Dominos is fixing potholes in some areas. The nice thing about the private rail is one of the common complaints on here is transit needs a dedicated funding source (presumably promoting a tax hike, which isn't going to help us attract more businesses)... these private lines have it, the private company that owns and operates it!

[jrs2]

^^

Well,  “future phases” announced initially don’t really mean anything, especially when Phase 1 has been in perpetual doubt because of the NIMBY lawsuits.  Also, FEC doesn’t own any easement on I-4, so Scott announcing this means there is a serious bid in play versus the initial vision of FEC to connect Tampa and Jax.

Scott delayed Sunrail for 6 months threatening to veto it all the while...dog and pony show perhaps, but he did delay Sunrail after it had already been approved during the Christ administration; the delay was unforeseen.  

On the federal tax dollars point, I wouldn’t know either way on political affiliations and money source preferences.

Well, one of the routes for Obama’s HSR was OIA to OCCC to WDW to Downtown Tampa.  Route sound familiar? (Sans Florida Mall stop)

[codypet]

12 hours ago, aent said:

He's bringing it up now in response to Nelson, but I've been hearing about the Tampa-Orlando route for years now as a future phase... and nothing has really changed, they just still are proceeding, and at this point we have no real timeline, although this does sound like it is hopefully sooner rather then later, and perhaps the Tampa extension is getting pushed ahead of the Jacksonville one? From what I've previously heard (and this was a year or so ago), we shouldn't expect any updates on the next phase until the Orlando extension is operational.

Nail on the head.

[aent]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

^^

Well,  “future phases” announced initially don’t really mean anything, especially when Phase 1 has been in perpetual doubt because of the NIMBY lawsuits.  Also, FEC doesn’t own any easement on I-4, so Scott announcing this means there is a serious bid in play versus the initial vision of FEC to connect Tampa and Jax.

Scott delayed Sunrail for 6 months threatening to veto it all the while...dog and pony show perhaps, but he did delay Sunrail after it had already been approved during the Christ administration; the delay was unforeseen.  

On the federal tax dollars point, I wouldn’t know either way on political affiliations and money source preferences.

Well, one of the routes for Obama’s HSR was OIA to OCCC to WDW to Downtown Tampa.  Route sound familiar? (Sans Florida Mall stop)

This route dates back to 2000, when a constitutional amendment was passed to require the legislature to build a HSR between Florida's 5 major metros. Construction was supposed to commence in 2003 until Jeb vetoed funding for it and the amendment was subsequently repealed, as people balked at the cost of completing the project they voted for. Its not really fair to call it an Obama HSR route as it existed 7 years before he was even elected. Obama offered money to get the already shovel ready Florida HSR project going, and Rick Scott rejected the money, apparently because FEC offered to do this same route for no taxpayer dollars instead of billions of taxpayer dollars.

This is the first time since 1983 private passenger rail service has been offered in the US.

Edited June 23, 2018 by aent

[Jernigan]

Federal money...so he didn’t really reject it, he let another state have it.  Just like Charlotte has “Lynx” light rail and we don’t.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Jernigan

[aent]

8 hours ago, Jernigan said:

Federal money...so he didn’t really reject it, he let another state have it.  Just like Charlotte has “Lynx” light rail and we don’t.

It was federal money with strings attached, the strings being that the state would end up responsible for completing it if the federal government didn't cover to completion. Originally it was 50% federal and 50% state, with each paying $1.25 billion, but when Wisconsin and Ohio rejected their portion, it would be sent to Florida to supposedly cover Florida's portion as well, but that amount only totaled $342.3 million even though they said it would fully cover the gap. Given the cost overruns we're seeing in other states that took the money, and that we're getting the same thing by a private enterprise with no risk to taxpayers, in hindsight, I think he made the right choice. And I'm pretty confident I was on this here forum complaining when he rejected it, since at the time it seemed like our best and only option to get it, and I didn't think anyone else would step up to do any of it, especially privately without tax dollars.

[klstorey]

You're forgetting that Virgin had agreed to pay for any cost overruns. Florida is right where we began 8 years ago. 

The bigger concern should be ensuring the HSR pathway remains. An amendment on the ballot in November wants to remove the HSR ROW. The amendment is coupled with also removing an old law that bans Asian Americans from owning land in the state of Florida. I doubt few people would vote to allow that law to remain but I personally think it's important the HSR ROW language remains so that opportunities, such as the two currently being discussed (hyperloop and Brightline), can move forward. 

I think the hyperloop is a better option for Tampa to Orlando but I'd love to see both. The Brightline one hasn't given any details on what stations it'll include but I'd love to see it keep all the originally planned ones, especially the one at Florida Polytechnic University in Lakeland. Don't forget that Scott's blocking of the voter approved rail system also meant Polk county never saw its planned tech park that Google and other companies were interested in. Hopefully the Brightline can help revive some of those plans. 

[aent]

37 minutes ago, klstorey said:

You're forgetting that Virgin had agreed to pay for any cost overruns. Florida is right where we began 8 years ago. 

The bigger concern should be ensuring the HSR pathway remains. An amendment on the ballot in November wants to remove the HSR ROW. The amendment is coupled with also removing an old law that bans Asian Americans from owning land in the state of Florida. I doubt few people would vote to allow that law to remain but I personally think it's important the HSR ROW language remains so that opportunities, such as the two currently being discussed (hyperloop and Brightline), can move forward. 

I think the hyperloop is a better option for Tampa to Orlando but I'd love to see both. The Brightline one hasn't given any details on what stations it'll include but I'd love to see it keep all the originally planned ones, especially the one at Florida Polytechnic University in Lakeland. Don't forget that Scott's blocking of the voter approved rail system also meant Polk county never saw its planned tech park that Google and other companies were interested in. Hopefully the Brightline can help revive some of those plans. 

Florida definitely isn't where we were 8 years ago, a portion of phase 2 is built and the remainder of the phase 2 of the project is scheduled to begin construction by the end of the  year and has a scheduled operational date of January 2021. And I far prefer the HSR phase 2 to Miami which has other rail transit systems along the way (Tri Rail, Metrorail, etc) and other much better transit options and destinations once you get there.  The Miami-Orlando route probably wouldn't have been considered by Brightline had the Tampa route been built because of a fear of duplication of service.

I don't know the details of the Virgin deal, and heard lots of mixed things about it, but at best, it was giving at the very least $1.6 billion of taxpayer dollars to Virgin for building the line that Brightline is now willing to build for free. With the FDOT RFP released for the HSR rail, it sounds like the amendment could very well be moot by the time its voted on, as far as the HSR is concerned, Brightline clearly wants that ROW to build a HSR.

As far as stations, we'll have to wait and see, but I doubt Lakeland will get a station as Cocoa didn't either, Brightline believes it will hurt ridership to have too many stops and make the train take too long. I am interested to see if Disney or the Universal south campus/OCCC can get a stop, or both. There is lots of money in getting tourists to those destinations from the airport, and it will be interesting to see if and how Brightline tries to capitalize on that.

[klstorey]

Disney was a reluctant last minute addition to the original HSR system. 

As far as Brightline in S. FL is concerned, the HSR system had plans for essentially the same path. I don't know about you but I'd much rather be going hundreds of miles per hr vs 80 something.

Naples, Daytona Beach, and Jacksonville links were also in the plans. 

Your tax argument is moot too since the money just went to other states. 

I think it's important for multiple modes of transit to open along all of the Florida corridors. I'm still upset the lightrail plans linking Altamonte to I-Drive were cut out of the I-4 Ultimate plans. I understand that SunRail runs nearby but not nearby enough to have a negative impact on ridership IMO, actually the two would've probably helped each other. 

I think a light rail option is best between MCO and OCCC. Remember, the maglev people are still insisting their project isn't dead. They claim it's just waiting for the right politicians in Orange County. I think whatever does come should use the Lynx planned BRT on Kirkman. Linking Pine Hills, Valencia, and Universal are also important to the future of transit in the area. 

I'm hopeful that we'll get tons of new mass transit in the coming years, as long as we let them happen. 

[I am Reality]

Any politician could have done nothing . . . and then hope a privately-funded train fails into their lap.  

It's the opposite of having a pro-active transportation plan. 

It's the fingers-crossed/waiting-for-a-gift-from-God approach to moving people around.

[jrs2]

12 hours ago, klstorey said:

Disney was a reluctant last minute addition to the original HSR system. 

As far as Brightline in S. FL is concerned, the HSR system had plans for essentially the same path. I don't know about you but I'd much rather be going hundreds of miles per hr vs 80 something.

Naples, Daytona Beach, and Jacksonville links were also in the plans. 

Your tax argument is moot too since the money just went to other states. 

I think it's important for multiple modes of transit to open along all of the Florida corridors. I'm still upset the lightrail plans linking Altamonte to I-Drive were cut out of the I-4 Ultimate plans. I understand that SunRail runs nearby but not nearby enough to have a negative impact on ridership IMO, actually the two would've probably helped each other. 

I think a light rail option is best between MCO and OCCC. Remember, the maglev people are still insisting their project isn't dead. They claim it's just waiting for the right politicians in Orange County. I think whatever does come should use the Lynx planned BRT on Kirkman. Linking Pine Hills, Valencia, and Universal are also important to the future of transit in the area. 

I'm hopeful that we'll get tons of new mass transit in the coming years, as long as we let them happen. 

that's not how I remember it.  Tampa to Orlando was Phase I.  But it was also the only phase federal money was being allotted for, and in the fashion that aent was discussing above ala cost overruns.  I never saw anything concrete about Miami to Orlando as a later phase; it was discussed but that's it.  There was no money allotted for it.  In fact, I believe some Miami representatives were protesting that Tampa to Orlando should be the first route in the state, so there was push back.

Plans don't mean anything if there's no money to fund it.  As far as plans go, chalk the route along the east coast as a "vision" which isn't even a "plan."  Mica felt that HSR from OIA to WDW would make money while WDW to Tampa would be a "dog" because it would terminate in downtown Tampa's north side, and not even connect to TPA.  

Everyone would love to have something like the Thalys here.  But just because the Miami to Orlando route was discussed doesn't mean it would happen, especially if the Tampa to Orlando route failed.

As far as the path goes, I remember it taking a different alignment closer to where the TNPK is; they wouldn't have used FEC's tracks because if they did, then Brightline could itself go faster on those same tracks.

Also, aent's tax argument is not moot, because with Brightline funding the Florida system, that's one less system that Federal tax dollars have to be spent on nationally.  We may not care about that here in Florida, but DOT cares.