Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[JRS1]

I've lived in Chicago too. Anyway, you are probably right regarding Clermont. Personally, I prefer highrises where appropriate and also prefer that all vacant lots that are not parks be developed.

I don't know the exact definition of it, but I do know that there are many large sections of, say, suburban Atlanta which are extremely dense out in Cobb and Gwinnette and Fayette counties, b/c they are master planned communities, but b/c they are so far from the urban core, they are labeled sprawl. that I don't agree with.

But there are other places where there a ranch-sized lots that have existed for 40 years or more in North Ga. and suburban Orlando that aren't considered sprawl. It just seems like all new development is labeled sprawl wrongfully so. And I think its done mainly by those who are not pro development.

what's this thread about again? anyway... $.02

[prahaboheme]

It is unrealistic to think Orlando will ever develop like NY or Chicago, so I see the situation of sprawl differently in respective areas. Basically, Hunters Creek is sprawl, Baldwin Park isn't. Poinciana is sprawl, Celebration isn't. If it isn't mixed use and not developed in a traditional neighborhood format with higher than average density, it is sprawl. If 250 homes dump out onto a single highway, such as pretty much everything along Kirkman, Colonial or Hiawassee, as a result causing major congestion, it is sprawl. Not to mention its ugly.

Edited March 28, 2006 by prahaboheme

[cwetteland]

My $.02 on sprawl.

Sprawl to me is defined by commute times and traffic and distance from a central core. It is not whether or not you can excuse it. The fact that it's part of an existing town, PUD or whatever has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is sprawl. That just has a bearing on whether we declare it as "allowable." Allowable sprawl is sprawl none the less.

I am pro growth ... but I think people (mostly developers) look for ways to make sprawl allowable.

Let's make everything a PUD, then we won't have any sprawl at all.

[JRS1]

here's 2 more cents:

Poinciana does have a retail center and central spine in the center of town. In fact, its roads are set up much like Palm Coast, which is a PUD. But, Poinciana is in BFE.

Now, the Villages has a traditional Main St. retail area in the center of development which is charming. It's probably the largest of all PUD's.

Personally, I'd sooner label an unattached subdivision in the middle of nowhere sprawl than an entire PUD. But, many subdivisions from the same developer make up a PUD.

Is Avalon Park sprawl? It has an up and coming city center with schools as well and is a PUD-- BUT, is in BFE also.

[radiostatic102]

My 2 quid:

Sprawl, though it is hard to define, is easy to recognize....usually in rush hour traffic.

What everyone needs to aim for is try to live within 2 or 3 miles of work. That would really help a lot. Try to keep it central. That way the individual communities that make up the greater metro area will have more of an identity, something people will care more about and want to actually spend time in and around. Maybe we just need to build a sky net of pedestrian walkways to overcome the traffic crossings.

Because speaking as a pedestrian, man, they're scary...

[speck76]

My 2 quid:

Sprawl, though it is hard to define, is easy to recognize....usually in rush hour traffic.

What everyone needs to aim for is try to live within 2 or 3 miles of work. That would really help a lot. Try to keep it central. That way the individual communities that make up the greater metro area will have more of an identity, something people will care more about and want to actually spend time in and around. Maybe we just need to build a sky net of pedestrian walkways to overcome the traffic crossings.

Because speaking as a pedestrian, man, they're scary...

Well...for one, highly urban areas have the worst traffic.

Nobody will doubt the fact that NYC and Toronto have very successful mass transit systems....but both downtown Toronto and Manhatten have much worse traffic than we have seen.......

And living within 3 miles of work. I work near the airport. I would never live near the airport....it is too noisy. Are you saying that the airport shoudl be an island, whereas no businesses should be near the airport as the vast majority of people don't want planes flying less than a few thousand feet overhead?

I am not sure anyone but a few here know what sprawl actually is......to many, any new development that is not in downtown Orlando is sprawl, and is evil.

I used to work near SeaWorld, many of my co-workers lived in high-density downtown Orlando, I lived in Hunter's Creek.....My commute was 7 miles....theirs' was 18, which was worse for traffic, which was worse for the environment?

My commute is now 14 miles, but if I worked in LBV, my commute would be 3, am I sprawl because I work in an area too far away?

Since the Orlando to Kissimmee cooridor is pretty much solid city, should the reserver area north of Hunters Creek between JYP and I-Drive be developed to prevent sprawl into the Osceola farmland?....I mean, they could create a great PUD their, and kill a close-in reserve area in the process, but think of the orange trees that will still be able to grow!

[radiostatic102]

And living within 3 miles of work. I work near the airport. I would never live near the airport....it is too noisy. Are you saying that the airport shoudl be an island, whereas no businesses should be near the airport as the vast majority of people don't want planes flying less than a few thousand feet overhead?

I am not sure anyone but a few here know what sprawl actually is......to many, any new development that is not in downtown Orlando is sprawl, and is evil.

I used to live right next to OIA and it was no picnic. Literally every 5 or 10 minutes. You just got used to it. There was a point where I wanted to get some Christmas lights and form the words "GO HOME" on our roof, but I didn't want to end up on the evening news...

[GRS328]

My commute is now 14 miles, but if I worked in LBV, my commute would be 3, am I sprawl because I work in an area too far away?

I don't think anyone's really trying to lay any blame on anyone here... I mean, I presume all of us who participate in this forum are here because we wish for a more urban existance, even if we disagree as to what extent.

But you touched on an interesting point regarding where you work. The fact that we live in a community where there are so many centers of employment, or maybe more accurately, lack of one true center, is as much a part of the problem as the residential development we love to bicker about. Chicken or the egg?

Edited March 29, 2006 by GRS328

[prahaboheme]

Well...for one, highly urban areas have the worst traffic.

Nobody will doubt the fact that NYC and Toronto have very successful mass transit systems....but both downtown Toronto and Manhatten have much worse traffic than we have seen.......

I beg to differ. I would rather cross any Avenue or Street in NYC on its worst day than Colonial, OBT, JYP on their best.

[speck76]

I don't think anyone's really trying to lay any blame on anyone here... I mean, I presume all of us who participate in this forum are here because we wish for a more urban existance, even if we disagree as to what extent.

But you touched on an interesting point regarding where you work. The fact that we live in a community where there are so many centers of employment, or maybe more accurately, lack of one true center, is as much a part of the problem as the residential development we love to bicker about. Chicken or the egg?

We do have 1 true center.....it is the Attractions area, or better yet, LBV. Part of the problem is that many people (myself included) WANT downtown Orlando to be that center, but it never has been....at least not since 1971.

Like every other city, we also have suburban centers....or better yet, the cities have run together. Pinecastle/McCoy AFB was a huge center of employment, and it gave way to OIA and the Lee Vista Offica Park.

One way to limit true sprawl is to clamp down on vacation home and short term rentals, which make up a large portion of the new homes in north Polk and Osceola counties along I-4.....afterall...that is why we have hotels....and at least hotels provide jobs.

[prahaboheme]

We do have 1 true center.....it is the Attractions area, or better yet, LBV. Part of the problem is that many people (myself included) WANT downtown Orlando to be that center, but it never has been....at least not since 1971.

Like every other city, we also have suburban centers....or better yet, the cities have run together. Pinecastle/McCoy AFB was a huge center of employment, and it gave way to OIA and the Lee Vista Offica Park.

One way to limit true sprawl is to clamp down on vacation home and short term rentals, which make up a large portion of the new homes in north Polk and Osceola counties along I-4.....afterall...that is why we have hotels....and at least hotels provide jobs.

Downtown Orlando is the center, end of story. It has the largest concentration of office space in the region, all the city services are downtown, and it is the historic center. This isn't going to change because the County continues to sprawl outward, or someone decides to label a certain section of town "Downtown Orange County." It will only strengthen in the future (as we are witnessing ourselves) because of its density and centrality that exist nowhere else in the metro area. If the I-Drive corridor strove to be more urban, it would already have more sophisticated, high-end hotels to compliment the convention center because sophistication is directly related to urbanity. Anyways, I'm rambling but you get the point. Downtown Orlando = Center.

[radiostatic102]

I don't think anyone's really trying to lay any blame on anyone here... I mean, I presume all of us who participate in this forum are here because we wish for a more urban existance, even if we disagree as to what extent.

No I wasn't married to the idea of everyone living 3 miles from work, nor was I trying to lay blame on anyone. Only throwing out ideas. See how long they last.

And having been a pedestrian being hit by a car a while back (nothing serious, somehow), I still stand by what I said about the street crossings. Orlando's one of the worst. It is an absolute nightmare.

[speck76]

No I wasn't married to the idea of everyone living 3 miles from work, nor was I trying to lay blame on anyone. Only throwing out ideas. See how long they last.

And having been a pedestrian being hit by a car a while back (nothing serious, somehow), I still stand by what I said about the street crossings. Orlando's one of the worst. It is an absolute nightmare.

Perhaps that is more because the vast majority of people around here drive like crap....not due to our volume of traffic.

[bulldogger]

some points on why so many pedestrians get run over. i haven't looked at any studies, but just some thoughts...

SUV drivers (that think they are driving a car instead of a truck)

Some major crosswalks have signals, but they don't ever give an allotted time for pedestrians to walk. They are always on the 'hand' signal. This makes it very confusing for pedestrians.

Cell phones while driving.

This one may be a stretch... but with Florida being very flat, during peak drive times, the sun is either directly in your face or your rearview mirror going East-West.

[radiostatic102]

^ I suggest that we install some mountains around the perimeter of the greater Orlando metro area. Not only will it cause the sun to get shielded a bit more but it should also curb urban sprawl quite a bit.

And by the way, speck76, you will get NO argument from me that Orlando has the cream of the crop in crappy drivers. It is unparalleled.

[mrh3]

When I read about all these problems with the growth in Orlando, I am curious as to why there isn't greater political involvement. If the population has a problem, take it to the Commissioners. Elect people that will execute your vision of what you want to be. Bottom Line. It sounds to me like there are some very forward thinking indviduals on this thread, why don't one of you take this as a grassroots platform to champion these issues?

[speck76]

When I read about all these problems with the growth in Orlando, I am curious as to why there isn't greater political involvement. If the population has a problem, take it to the Commissioners. Elect people that will execute your vision of what you want to be. Bottom Line. It sounds to me like there are some very forward thinking indviduals on this thread, why don't one of you take this as a grassroots platform to champion these issues?

there is little mass support amongst the locals......the vast majority of people here are transplants....many still consider "home" to be where they are from, Orlando is just a stop-over.

[radiostatic102]

there is little mass support amongst the locals......the vast majority of people here are transplants....many still consider "home" to be where they are from, Orlando is just a stop-over.

Bingo. It's the transient population. Don't know why it happens, I just know it does.

[gumpking1]

some points on why so many pedestrians get run over. i haven't looked at any studies, but just some thoughts...

SUV drivers (that think they are driving a car instead of a truck)

Some major crosswalks have signals, but they don't ever give an allotted time for pedestrians to walk. They are always on the 'hand' signal. This makes it very confusing for pedestrians.

Cell phones while driving.

This one may be a stretch... but with Florida being very flat, during peak drive times, the sun is either directly in your face or your rearview mirror going East-West.

Your right.Iam a deputy sheriff and have seen my share of accidents.One thing in particular is people running red lights.When entering the intersection and the light turns yellow what do u do.Slow down and come to a complete stop as the statute reads or try and beat the light.Everyone that reads this forum knows that ur supposed to slow down and stop but 99 percent of people try to bbeat it because they are in a hurry add to that cell phones and you have a total plan for diaster

[kjsimons]

Just in case anyone needed something to do Saturday morning, the wftv website says that the OUC parking garage is going to be demolished then to make room for the new exit ramp from 408 West to I-4 East.

[pip]

Cross-Volusia toll road looks like done deal

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/custom...rowth-headlines

[JRS1]

That author is freakin' crazy. He talks as if they are going to start dumping nuclear waste there. Charming Oviedo?

These anti-sprawlers are taking things a little too far I think. I say just relable it "anti development" instead of "anti sprawl."

How many new exits are there on 528 in 30 years?

THis guy is the reason why DB Shores had a new height limit ord. placed in last year and why Daytona hasn't grown that much compared to West Volusia.

And what is so valuable about Edgewater anyway in the state its been in the last 40 years?

THey manufactured a reason for the study? ........

now I hope this gets built.

[MAntoniazzi]

This is a good article on Suburbia and its long terms effects. Is this the rigth forum? I remember a thread where the suburban lifestyle was discussed.

http://www.inman.com/hstory.aspx?ID=51992

[facilities man]

Drove the length of the Western beltway from 192 in west Kissimmee to Apopka over the Memorial Day weekend. The first five miles I think we saw 12 cars. It's like the road was closed and we weren't supposed to be on it. It starts to get a little busy once you're north of Disney. What a great new commuting road for anyone living in Ocoee, Apopka, or even Lake County who works at or around Disney. It only cost $3, not too bad.

[JRS1]

Drove the length of the Western beltway from 192 in west Kissimmee to Apopka over the Memorial Day weekend. The first five miles I think we saw 12 cars. It's like the road was closed and we weren't supposed to be on it. It starts to get a little busy once you're north of Disney. What a great new commuting road for anyone living in Ocoee, Apopka, or even Lake County who works at or around Disney. It only cost $3, not too bad.

a very nice drive. you can see Contemporary a couple miles or so north of that Disney exit they put in. THe I-4 interchange with 429 is coming along nicely. when that opens up, it will get much busier.